Opinion: Thailand’s ambiguous stance on Ukraine’s highlights her own insecurities (even among her liberals)

[billd766]

On 3/1/2022 at 7:45 AM, Pique Dard said:

the question is WHY russia "invaded" ukraine? who remembers james baker "U.S. Secretary of State James Baker's famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion". 

this statement was made in 1990 and  now suddenly has become a myth in some media!

the current war  isn't  SPECIFICALLY against ukraine, it is  against the expansion of nato. those are facts, however it doesn't  mean i support the war.

Please tell us how many countries NATO has invaded since 4 March 1947, the Treaty of Dunkirk was signed by France and the United Kingdom as a Treaty of Alliance and Mutual Assistance in the event of a possible attack by Germany or the Soviet Union in the aftermath of World War II. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

 

In 1948, this alliance was expanded to include the Benelux countries, in the form of the Western Union, also referred to as the Brussels Treaty Organization (BTO), established by the Treaty of Brussels.[9] Talks for a new military alliance, which could also include North America, resulted in the signature of the North Atlantic Treaty on 4 April 1949 by the member states of the Western Union plus the United States, Canada, Portugal, Italy, Norway, Denmark and Iceland.[10] The signatories were part of a committee chaired by US diplomat Theodore Achilles.

 

quote from your post. "the current war  isn't  SPECIFICALLY against Ukraine, it is  against the expansion of NATO. those are facts, however it doesn't  mean i support the war.

 

Well if it isn't SPECIFICALLY against Ukraine, then please explain why Russia has invaded the Ukraine and only (so far) the Ukraine?

 

If Russia was so alarmed and worried by NATO, why did he not invade any other former Warsaw Pact country which is now a part of NATO? There re quite a few former Warsaw Pact countries he could have chosen. Each country by the way, ASKED to join NATO, they were not forced to join, they were not invaded to join, it was done of each countries own volition.

 

Yet Russia INVADED the Ukraine and has tried to beat the Ukraine to a standstill and effectively colonise the Ukraine, unsuccessfully so far.

 

I suspect that Putin, having annexed the Crimea that was and still is a part of the Ukraine, thought (and was probably told by his yes man advisors) That the Ukraine was ripe for the picking, and that the decadent West would abandon it and stand on the side lines, shouting loudly and doing nothing.

 

He is learning to his and Russia's cost that enough was enough.

[Stygge]

13 hours ago, Saanim said:

If we were to believe your assertion please enlighten us why the democratic country has not become within the last 20 years "a rich western standard country" but the poorest country in Europe?  Or just a bit better than Moldova.

 

But Moldova did not get such a great support, also not a huge IMF loan (that is not being paid back). 

 

So, why so many Ukrainians have left the country as a cheap workforce in Europe - even to Thailand (not the men) - no census over 20 years - so it really had to scare the "ordinary Russians", hadn't it?    

I wrote "But the main reason Putin invade Ukraine is the fear of a democratic country developing close to Russia. Democracy will make Ukraine a rich western standard country and Putin is afraid this will give ordinary russians ideas of a better society."

"Will make Ukraine a rich western standard country"
It´s called future tense.
No country make money associating with Russia. Ukraine has had severe corruption - a russian heritage. Ukraine still has, but rapidly diminishing.
Democracy really didn´t start developing until after 2014. Give it another decade without the russian harness and you will have a prosperous western standard nation, like the Baltic states. Putins worst nightmare.

[Saanim]

4 minutes ago, Stygge said:

No country make money associating with Russia. Ukraine has had severe corruption - a russian heritage. Ukraine still has, but rapidly diminishing.
Democracy really didn´t start developing until after 2014. Give it another decade without the russian harness and you will have a prosperous western standard nation, like the Baltic states. Putins worst nightmare.

Wondering whether you self truly believe it? Anyway, perhaps WSJ has got it wrong... (another Russian lie?)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-corruption-concerns-stall-imf-bailout-11572535061   

[Stygge]

6 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Wondering whether you self truly believe it? Anyway, perhaps WSJ has got it wrong... (another Russian lie?)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-corruption-concerns-stall-imf-bailout-11572535061   

Yes, an IMF report from 3 years ago reflecting actions taken about 5 years ago.
I´m talking of the situation 24 feb. 2022. Things were rapidly going in the right direction when Putin decided to get heavy handed.

[Saanim]

11 hours ago, Stygge said:

Yes, an IMF report from 3 years ago reflecting actions taken about 5 years ago.
I´m talking of the situation 24 feb. 2022. Things were rapidly going in the right direction when Putin decided to get heavy handed.

Perhaps you can google how much from the $15B has been in the meantime repaid.  And whose bank the money had gone to? Obviously, the IMF is not so eager on their money unlike at other debtors (who remembers the Thai IMF loan painstakingly repaid?)

 

(BTW, do you believe that WSJ would dare to wrote nowadays what they wrote 3 years ago?)   

[candide]

On 4/3/2022 at 1:12 PM, billd766 said:

Please tell us how many countries NATO has invaded since 4 March 1947, the Treaty of Dunkirk was signed by France and the United Kingdom as a Treaty of Alliance and Mutual Assistance in the event of a possible attack by Germany or the Soviet Union in the aftermath of World War II. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

 

In 1948, this alliance was expanded to include the Benelux countries, in the form of the Western Union, also referred to as the Brussels Treaty Organization (BTO), established by the Treaty of Brussels.[9] Talks for a new military alliance, which could also include North America, resulted in the signature of the North Atlantic Treaty on 4 April 1949 by the member states of the Western Union plus the United States, Canada, Portugal, Italy, Norway, Denmark and Iceland.[10] The signatories were part of a committee chaired by US diplomat Theodore Achilles.

 

quote from your post. "the current war  isn't  SPECIFICALLY against Ukraine, it is  against the expansion of NATO. those are facts, however it doesn't  mean i support the war.

 

Well if it isn't SPECIFICALLY against Ukraine, then please explain why Russia has invaded the Ukraine and only (so far) the Ukraine?

 

If Russia was so alarmed and worried by NATO, why did he not invade any other former Warsaw Pact country which is now a part of NATO? There re quite a few former Warsaw Pact countries he could have chosen. Each country by the way, ASKED to join NATO, they were not forced to join, they were not invaded to join, it was done of each countries own volition.

 

Yet Russia INVADED the Ukraine and has tried to beat the Ukraine to a standstill and effectively colonise the Ukraine, unsuccessfully so far.

 

I suspect that Putin, having annexed the Crimea that was and still is a part of the Ukraine, thought (and was probably told by his yes man advisors) That the Ukraine was ripe for the picking, and that the decadent West would abandon it and stand on the side lines, shouting loudly and doing nothing.

 

He is learning to his and Russia's cost that enough was enough.

On top of it, this "promise" was not made to Russia, it was made to the USSR, which was dissolved in December 1991. USSR, which Russia left in June 1991 and declared itsbindependence.

 

So basically, the argument is about a promise made to an union which doesn't exist any more, which Russia left before its dissolution anyway.

[placeholder]

On 4/3/2022 at 1:27 PM, Saanim said:

 

That the money generously and freely received from different sources had not been always directed to the country welfare but to their leaders is no secrecy, permanently ranking among the most corruption countries.  (Call a spade a spade)

You're right about corruption in Ukraine. It's been a disgrace. Actually rated the 2nd most corrupt country in Europe. Want to know the winner?

 

'According to Transparency International's 2021 Corruption Perceptions Index, (a scale of least to most corrupt nations), Ukraine ranked 122nd out of 180 countries in 2021, the second most corrupt in Europe, with Russia the most at 136.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine#:~:text=According to Transparency International's,Russia the most at 136.