3 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

So, following you logic, the same should happen when Putin invades Poland, Baltic states and whatever country he will feel like to invade? Again those countries will have “to work out whatever accommodation with Putin that they can”. And where will this cowardly position lead us all in the end? Any ideas?

The Russian Federation has neither the economic nor the military might to match Stalin's in 1945.  Putin knows this.  

 

But frankly I don't worry about the Russians attacking yet another country.  The rogue nation much more likely to do so is the US, cf. Panama, Grenada, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice), and with eyes on Iran.  

1 minute ago, cmarshall said:

Same thing happened when the Finns defeated the Red Army in 1939.  Subsequently, the Soviets corrected their deficiencies with the result that they still hold the Karelian Peninsula today.    

Wait you were talking about Hollywood a minute ago, the professional analysts who have actually studied the situation presently seem to have a different opinion to your crystal ball

 

 

18 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

It's called a sphere of influence.  During the Cold War the US and the USSR acknowledged each other's spheres of influence and mostly avoided confrontations in those zones.  When they failed to respect the opponent's sphere of influence such as in Cuba in 1962 all hell broker loose nearly resulting in a nuclear exchange.  But then after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the triumphant US decided unilaterally that it had no such similar obligation to respect any sphere of influence of the Russian Federation.  The current ongoing destruction of Ukraine is the direct result of the Americans' hubris. 

They sure influenced Ukraine in 1932. Your theories are, frankly, offensive.

8 minutes ago, Hummin said:

How many nuclear weapons does Russia have?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60564123

 

Nuclear weapons pose the single biggest threat to the Earth's environment, scientists have warned.

In a new study of the potential global impacts of nuclear blasts, an American team found even a small-scale war would quickly devastate the world's climate and ecosystems, causing damage that would last for more than a decade.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2006/dec/12/nuclearindustry.climatechange

Ok, you are right. Those bombs can kill us all. Let’s then make Mr Putin with his unpredictable ‘interests’ - the ruler of the world. After all - we have no choice. He has the bombs!

 

 

41 minutes ago, tgw said:

Logic subroutine error : 404 logic not found

 

but anyway: everyone calls Putin a war criminal. Except Belarus, North Korea and China...

 

it's happening now. just watch.

I'll take that bet.

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

They will discuss it and that's about it

Boycott of Russian gas and oil ‘could cause mass poverty in Germany’

Minister warns an immediate stop to supplies could hurt Germany’s population more than Putin

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/14/russian-gas-oil-boycott-mass-poverty-warns-germany

 

More than 80 % of energy imports are petroleum products in Cyprus, Malta, Greece and Sweden and more than a third is gas in Hungary, Italy, Austria and Slovakia. Around 20 % of energy imports are solid fuels in Poland and Slovakia.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/infographs/energy/bloc-2c.html#carouselControls?lang=en

 

Some EU countries are 100% dependent on Russian Oil and Gas

Germany has determined to remove it's influence on Russian oil within 5 years. Nobody said immediate. It will nevertheless cripple Russia's economy.

44 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

I'm saying that Stalin's actions in 1932 solidified Ukrainian hatred of Russia and make a mockery of your claim that Ukraine remains within Russia's "sphere of influence".

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Germany has determined to remove it's influence on Russian oil within 5 years. Nobody said immediate. It will nevertheless cripple Russia's economy.

Oil is fungible.  Someone will always buy Russian oil like the Indians are doing now.  The US despite its efforts was never able to shutdown Iran's oil exports.

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Germany has determined to remove it's influence on Russian oil within 5 years. Nobody said immediate. It will nevertheless cripple Russia's economy.

Until the time comes for war reparations,  sanctions will need to be removed in order to pay for war reparations

A number of countries are just waiting for Iran sanctions to be lifted in order to discuss Oil and Gas imports

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Until the time comes for war reparations,  sanctions will need to be removed in order to pay for war reparations

A number of countries are just waiting for Iran sanctions to be lifted in order to discuss Oil and Gas imports

War reparations?  From the Russians?  You do have a vivid imagination.  Who is going to occupy the Russian Federation and force them to pay reparations?

Just now, cmarshall said:

Oil is fungible.  Someone will always buy Russian oil like the Indians are doing now.  The US despite its efforts was never able to shutdown Iran's oil exports.

[India] needs European capital, Japanese investment and U.S. technology to modernize its economy--not to mention weapons and diplomatic support in order to stand up to rival China. Its media and ruling establishment should also remember that Russia caused this crisis with an unprovoked invasion of a smaller neighbor--and India can hardly be on the side of the aggressor.

 

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/hurting-from-sanctions-on-russia-india-is-losing-faith-in-the-west-122031800125_1.html

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Until the time comes for war reparations,  sanctions will need to be removed in order to pay for war reparations

A number of countries are just waiting for Iran sanctions to be lifted in order to discuss Oil and Gas imports

Nah, there's a better way to do it.

 

 

Much of Russia’s $630bn of foreign exchange reserves are thought to be held outside the country, and effectively frozen by sanctions in the US, the EU and other places.

That would make billions available for reconstruction – if Ukraine is able to access it once the war is over.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60684660

3 minutes ago, Hellfire said:

Ok, you are right. Those bombs can kill us all. Let’s then make Mr Putin with his unpredictable ‘interests’ - the ruler of the world. After all - we have no choice. He has the bombs!

 

 

The question is if Russia was an superpower?

 

Their economic is on par with ranked between South Korea and Spain on 12. Place.

 

Military power they rank from 2. To nr 6 depending on which source you choose.

 

And seeing them in action now in Ukraine, you know it is more about moral to fight than real power. Unless Putin send away a few nuclear warheads and also choose to use chlorine gas. 

 

What then? 

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

[India] needs European capital, Japanese investment and U.S. technology to modernize its economy--not to mention weapons and diplomatic support in order to stand up to rival China. Its media and ruling establishment should also remember that Russia caused this crisis with an unprovoked invasion of a smaller neighbor--and India can hardly be on the side of the aggressor.

 

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/hurting-from-sanctions-on-russia-india-is-losing-faith-in-the-west-122031800125_1.html

Which is why the Indians are buying Russian oil now then?  

43 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

Don't fool yourself into think the Russians are winning.

 

The column gets stopped and an impatient general goes forward to see what's going on, because there's no initiative, no non-commissioned officer corps, no sense of initiative at junior levels -- they wait to be told what to do. Gets up there, and the Ukrainians have very, very good snipers and have been picking them off."

"At least four of the five have been confirmed, I think the fifth we'll hear about today," he added.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/russia-ukraine-generals/

26 minutes ago, tgw said:

Afghanistan and Vietnam would like a word...

 

Russia were in Afghanistan around 9 years and had around 14.5k combat troop deaths as a result. They've been in Ukraine just over 3 weeks and already had around that amount.

 

Kind of puts Russia's losses in perspective

44 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

Somehow, I think it is you who is influenced by the Hollywood cold war era propaganda about the mighty Soviet war machine. You don’t seem to understand the real situation with the Russian military of 2022: backward, corrupted and low motivated.  Many more surprises on the way for you.

 

 

4 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Which is why the Indians are buying Russian oil now then?  

Ah India, Russia's ally in the UN now buying steeply discounted oil, along with Russia's largest buyer of military equipment

 

46 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Germany has determined to remove it's influence on Russian oil within 5 years. Nobody said immediate. It will nevertheless cripple Russia's economy.

I don't think Germany has any "influence" on Russian oil, but instead heavy reliance on it and as well Russian gas (50% from Ru) and the only way to drop their dependence now and long term is to use less /cut consumption, and use more coal. Russia appears to have high demand for their energy and no shortage of energy customers if you bothered to check and now you can add China to the list.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-russia-china-agree-30-year-gas-deal-using-new-pipeline-source-2022-02-04/

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/business/china-russia-ukraine.html

45 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The Russian Federation has neither the economic nor the military might to match Stalin's in 1945.  Putin knows this.  

 

But frankly I don't worry about the Russians attacking yet another country.  The rogue nation much more likely to do so is the US, cf. Panama, Grenada, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq (twice), and with eyes on Iran.  

More whataboutary 

34 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

War reparations?  From the Russians?  You do have a vivid imagination.  Who is going to occupy the Russian Federation and force them to pay reparations?

You are aware most of Russia’s capital is outside of Russia?

 

No need to occupy Russia to get hold of most of the nation’s money.

 

 

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2017/08/23/wealth-in-offshores-equals-that-of-russians-combined-a58733

1 hour ago, wofat said:

I don't think Germany has any "influence" on Russian oil, but instead heavy reliance on it and as well Russian gas (50% from Ru) and the only way to drop their dependence now and long term is to use less /cut consumption, and use more coal. Russia appears to have high demand for their energy and no shortage of energy customers if you bothered to check and now you can add China to the list.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-russia-china-agree-30-year-gas-deal-using-new-pipeline-source-2022-02-04/

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/business/china-russia-ukraine.html

sorry, I meant "dependence".

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

Psychology the loudest on each sides, and the more convinst(also extremists), is more likely to take side, pending on what side their information they based their opinion on. 
 

Can you accept there could be other solutions than war? Do you accept even Putin is the aggressor, Russians might see it different, and I am allowed to bring light to other views than just go out and fight a devastating war? 
 

Do you understand it is convinient to have Putin as the enemy in Europe out of many reasons? 
 

We have tried to make the axis of evil before, and what have those actions against those evils led to? 
 

Can you accept this is a game played by the world leaders, who is willing to sacrifice humans by pushing the right buttons at the right time?

 

Do you believe in creating evil? Is that possible?
 

Again

There is no doubt who is the dictator and aggressor who have the power to stop this anytime he want! And that is Putin. Putin is a war criminal and should be prosecuted! Should be unecssery to write, but with people who like to make others meaning fits their view, my posts needs and disclaimer.

Now you throw in your conspiracy nonsense.

 

Here’s a fact.

 

Putin ordered the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.

 

 

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.

 

Bucharest Summit Declaration Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Bucharest on 3 April 2008

https://web.archive.org/web/20200714204022/http://www.summitbucharest.gov.ro/en/doc_202.html

Fourteen years ago Ukraine was welcomed to aspire to NATO membership.  Since then, nothing....no membership, no firm date for membership, no clear path to membership.

 

Does that justify Russia's invasion?

2 hours ago, cmarshall said:

There may indeed be downsides for Russia, but nothing that is going to prevent them from achieving their goal of destroying Ukraine.   

There was also nothing to prevent the Soviet Union from destroying Afghanistan.  Instead Afghanistan destroyed, or at least contributed mightly to the destruction of, the Soviet Union.

2 hours ago, cmarshall said:

It's called a sphere of influence.  During the Cold War the US and the USSR acknowledged each other's spheres of influence and mostly avoided confrontations in those zones.  When they failed to respect the opponent's sphere of influence such as in Cuba in 1962 all hell broker loose nearly resulting in a nuclear exchange.  But then after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the triumphant US decided unilaterally that it had no such similar obligation to respect any sphere of influence of the Russian Federation.  The current ongoing destruction of Ukraine is the direct result of the Americans' hubris. 

Have you noticed how many countries that were part of the former Soviet Union have joined or are attempting to join NATO?  Would you deny these countries the right to determine their own destinies?

 

What about the former Warsaw Pact countries; Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc.?  Would you let Russia have them as well?

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

Absolutely it does.  And this is another direct result of the stupid and callous confrontation with Russia that the US has created with its unrelenting expansion of NATO.  The main threat to the US is not from Russia, with its economy smaller than Texas, but from China whose economy has been larger than the US's since 2010 on a purchasing power parity basis.  The US ought to have been making an ally of Russia against China, but instead has now pushed them into the Chinese camp since there is no where else for them to go.  Smart think, US strategists!

Actually the US has been trying for better relations with Russia since the Bush administration.  It only seemed to make Putin bolder.

 

Regarding separating Russia from China; that won't happen until it suits China.  They are both autocratic nations that want an empire.

 

"Asked to describe China’s strategic goal, diplomats at more than a dozen embassies in Beijing are in near unanimity. They say China wants a world order built around spheres of influence, with China in control of Asia, Russia wielding a veto over security arrangements in Europe and America pushed back to its own shores. If such an order is helped into existence by Russia’s war in Ukraine, so be it."   https://www.economist.com/china/chinas-friendship-with-russia-has-boundaries-despite-what-their-leaders-say/21808197

 

However China correctly sees Russia as the minor partner in an duopoly that controls the Eurasian continent, and an expendable one at that.  If supporting Russia becomes inconvenient China will dump Russia.

8 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Actually the US has been trying for better relations with Russia since the Bush administration.  It only seemed to make Putin bolder.

 

Regarding separating Russia from China; that won't happen until it suits China.  They are both autocratic nations that want an empire.

 

"Asked to describe China’s strategic goal, diplomats at more than a dozen embassies in Beijing are in near unanimity. They say China wants a world order built around spheres of influence, with China in control of Asia, Russia wielding a veto over security arrangements in Europe and America pushed back to its own shores. If such an order is helped into existence by Russia’s war in Ukraine, so be it."   https://www.economist.com/china/chinas-friendship-with-russia-has-boundaries-despite-what-their-leaders-say/21808197

 

However China correctly sees Russia as the minor partner in an duopoly that controls the Eurasian continent, and an expendable one at that.  If supporting Russia becomes inconvenient China will dump Russia.

China doesn’t produce enough food to feed itself, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine threatens grain supplies.

 

The US is a food exporter and China a dependent importer of US foods.

 

Russia is expendable.

 

 

Another flame post toward a fellow forum member has been removed.

 

My patience for removing such flaming comments is getting very thin. If I continue to see such personal, belittling comments toward other members, patience is going to turn to posting suspensions!

 

You've been warned...

 

 

3 hours ago, cmarshall said:

 One avoids confronting a nuclear power not out of respect, but out of the most justified fear imaginable.  If the Ukrainians and the US manage to push Putin into a corner he will use his nukes.  Ukraine cannot win.  They should realize this, distance themselves from the US, and work out whatever accommodation with Putin that they can.  If not the Western media will cheer the Ukrainian heroism until there is nothing left but rubble.

Does having nuclear weapons mean that you can just walk in and take any nation you want then? that’s the logic of your statement. Let’s pray North Korean or Pakistan don’t coming knocking on your door then. You’ll have to let them in and take your home away.