Trans women athletes fairness question is not going away

[Jingthing]

This is a can of worms issue, but here goes.

 

If trans women competitive athletes never won anything, this wouldn't be such a big issue, but it gets magnified when they do, as just happened in the NCAA.

 

Lia Thomas becomes first trans woman to win NCAA swimming championship (usatoday.com)

 

While the right wing is focused on mean spirited widely discriminatory laws to ban trans girls and women from ever competing at all, on the other side, the mainstream LGBT politics is for full inclusiveness within defined guidelines around things like hormone levels.

 

Even if it was true that a trans women never had an unfair advantage based on birth gender, the damaging political optics of this issue are never going to go away, particularly when trans women win.

 

After all, in competitive sports, tiny advantages make all the difference. 

 

My question here is whether blindly supporting inclusiveness without taking into account the constant and predictable backlash (that will never go away) is really worth it? 

 

This issue isn't about everything in the lives of trans women or all or most trans women. 

 

It's only about a small minority of them that wish to participate in formal athletic competition. 

 

For them not to be able to do that would be a loss for them of course.

 

But the question here, is if this one aspect of such a small number of people within a minority really WORTH it? Considering the public sees LGBT as a monolith type thing, should support for this inclusiveness be moved from knee jerk always for to NEUTRAL. Not to join the bigots but to just back off even if it will be seen by some as throwing people under the bus?

 

Keeping in mind the cliche pick your battles wisely, should this be a battle that LGBT politics should wisely choose to NOT pick?

 

Doesn't support for this highly controversial niche issue DAMAGE the rest of the LGBT political movement's equality goals? 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Jingthing

[Dcheech]

Great job framing it up, giving me two options both of which I don't like. That aside, I have no problems with trans athletes competing in sports. However their are physical differences that hormone procedures cannot change. As such if you want it to be fair, then they need their own division to compete in. Generally sports events try to be fair, which is why people get awards for winning & get tossed for using performance enhancing drugs.

This has been known for years if not decades. The recent NCAA swimming events highlight the ridiculousness lengths this has gone to, and just serves as a dog whistle to mouth breathers. What's worse from your perspective, the mouth breathers are essentially correct.   

[Jingthing]

The suggestion that there should be separate divisions for trans athletes is totally absurd!

There aren't nearly enough such athletes to support that.

I've heard that suggestion before and I find it a disingenuous copout. 

Solve a difficult issue with a completely impractical FAKE solution.

Nope.

This is a question of fairness. Fairness to the athletes. There is no solution that is going to be seen by all as fair. 

Some things in life are like that, and this is one of them.

[RmcaIssan]

This can only be resolved by creating 'other' category ...

Male

Female

Other

 

 

[Jingthing]

23 minutes ago, RmcaIssan said:

This can only be resolved by creating 'other' category ...

Male

Female

Other

 

 

Then it won"t be resolved because that won't happen.

 

Not enough so called others.

 

Most trans women would not accept to compete in that category even if there were.

 

Red states would never fund it.

 

It's a complete non starter.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Jingthing

[JackGats]

According to the feminist/woke narrative, sex is a social construct. Well, there you are!

[richard_smith237]

Perhaps we (society) is has been too ‘enabling’....

 

It is perfectly fair if people wish to live their lives as they wish, however do so without any harm, impact or negative influence on others and make whatever choices, voluntary, subconscious or otherwise, again so long as they do so without any harm, impact or negative influence on others. 

 

In the case highlighted (NCAA) we have a transgender lady who has an obvious physical advantage, while there is no clear ‘correct solution’ allowing a transgender lady with a strong physical advantage over her fellow female athletes to compete because she was born male is clearly wrong (IMO). However, the world has become so ‘woke’ we are not permitted to voice this opinion for fear of being called out a bigot. 

 

I agree that these issues do more damage because they generate polarisation which impact issues where there is no physical advantage - no one would care if the competition were snooker, pool, darts, bowling, chess or poker etc, however in sports which are reliant on a physical advantage such as football, athletics, rugby, swimming etc I do believe a stronger stance needs to be achieved and those in positions of decision making power need to stand more firm to avoid creating a circus and a mockery which in the long term is damaging to all concerned. 

 

As you mentioned JT - there are so ‘few’ transgender athletes than an ‘other’ category would be pointless, it would also be insulting to transgender athletes who consider themselves female. 

 

But, there is no elegant solution and we may just have to accept that and tell transgender athletes who have transitioned from male to female and carry a significant advantage over their female counter parts that the while they are a welcome part of a functioning society they are unable to compete against females’... it may seem cruel and bigoted, but its not - its just being realistic. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

I want to clarify some points.

 

My focus here is about politics and perception as opposed to settling the question about objective unfair advantage.

 

After all most trans women athletes LOSE. 

 

But regardless of any objective truth about unfair advantage I believe most of the general public including fellow athletes will perceive unfair advantage when trans women win.

 

Whether that perception is objectively true or not, it's hardly an insane perception.

 

Also to note I am not suggesting that everyone against including trans women in women's competitive sports is a bigot!

 

Some are and some aren't.

 

But when anti LGBT activists legislate against such inclusion its almost always part of total package of other laws that are bigoted such as about bathroom access, etc.

[Jingthing]

Things getting nasty.

Maybe she shouldn't have been allowed to compete, but she was allowed to compete, she didn't break any rules, and she won.

Now right wing political demagogues are not recognizing her as the winner.

That is not OK at all. 

You don't change the rules in the middle of the game.

That's the opposite of good sportsmanship. 

 

Caitlyn Jenner: Trans swimmer Lia Thomas is not the 'rightful winner' (usatoday.com)

 

Quote

Caitlyn Jenner says trans swimmer Lia Thomas is not the 'rightful winner' of NCAA title

 

[BritManToo]

I'd let them compete in women's events, but only after their penis and testicles had been surgically  removed. 

[TooBigToFit]

To me the trans women should realize it's not fair to real women. They may cry that they are a real women but it's just not true. They are certainly not naturally born as a normal healthy female. These trans women trying to exploit sports are hurting the whole trans cause. They look greedy and selfish. We all have to accept our own realities from birth. Some of us may be luckier than others and its just the way it is. 

 

[Scott]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'd let them compete in women's events, but only after their penis and testicles had been surgically  removed. 

She has fully transitioned and no longer has a penis or testicles.

 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

She has fully transitioned and no longer has a penis or testicles.

 

Completely in order to participate then IMHO.

[JonnyF]

Allowing individuals born male to compete against females is grossly unfair to females. If this continues it will destroy women's sport.

 

Trans Women should be respected 100%. But if they wish to compete in sport they should compete against other biological males. Since scientifically that is what they are.

 

The only solution I can see is a third category for trans. Or maybe create a new category for women who were born women and allow the current "women's" group to continue to be open to trans women and biological women. Let biological women choose which category they wish to compete in. See how that pans out.

 

Destroying women's sport for a small minority of trans people is grossly unfair and in my opinion, deeply misogynistic.

 

It's funny how the people telling us to follow "The Science" for 2 years are now completely ignoring it.

[Jingthing]

Third category isn't going to happen.

 

Expecting all trans women to voluntarily not participate is silly. Some always will if allowed.

 

Its got to be about rules.

 

Either trans women can compete as women if they meet rules such as hormone levels or they can't.

 

If allowed, whoever wins wins.

 

Politically this is kind of a problem for both sides.

 

For progressives saying let them compete, they will be attacked for being woke and supporting unfairness to cisgender women.

 

For right wingers, their efforts to ban trans women usually has the stink of bigotry and general intolerance.

 

It is my opinion as stated before that this is a more powerful culture wars issue for the right wing and that progressives would be better off not investing in supporting trans women athletic participation. As in its just not worth the backlash to the entirety of LGBT civil rights aspirations 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jingthing

[jak2002003]

I think it's time to stop discriminating between men and women in sports.  It is totally sexist.  Sports teams should not be allowed to say...'yo can't join our football team because you are a women, or you can't join n our swimming team because you are man'.

 

Let the women and men compete together on the same teams.  Women are equal to men after all right?

 

[tgw]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Third category isn't going to happen.

 

Expecting all trans women to voluntarily not participate is silly. Some always will if allowed.

 

Its got to be about rules.

 

Either trans women can compete as women if they meet rules such as hormone levels or they can't.

 

If allowed, whoever wins wins.

it's really really difficult to form an opinion about what's fair in this case.

 

current hormone levels might be an indicator, but what about past hormone levels which influences the development of the body?

 

what about people born with two types of fully formed sexual organs (very rare, but still ...)

 

and then let's do a theoretical comparison with paralympics - look under classification and cheating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralympic_Games#Functional_classification_(since_1980s)

 

another aspect is that most top champions in sport benefit from minor genetic advantages/mutations that give them an advantage. some women have naturally high performance-enhancing hormone levels, they were born with it.

should they be disqualified from taking part ?

 

and then there's a fundamental question about categories in the first place.

 

categories are there to "make it fair and fun"  . . .  should "fair" even have a place in measuring human performance ?

 

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

For progressives saying let them compete, they will be attacked for being woke and supporting unfairness to cisgender women.

 

For right wingers, their efforts to ban trans women usually has the stink of bigotry and general intolerance.

It's nothing to do with left wing and right wing. Nothing to do with Bigotry and Intolerance. This is about scientific fact, Human Biology and fundamental fairness in sport.

 

Biological men are stronger than biological women. What is it going to take for people to acknowledge such a simple statement of truth? Maybe when they see a biological man beating a biological woman into unconsciousness in a boxing ring the penny will finally drop? Maybe then they will acknowledge that it is not fair to a biological woman to have to compete in sport against a biological man, no matter how that biological man "feels inside"?

 

The longer this continues, the more trans women will start competing in women's sport and obliterating the opposition with huge margins of victory like Lia Thomas did. Women's sport is fantastic, why ruin it to appease a tiny minority of people who have an unfair advantage over their competitors?

[Berkshire]

33 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It is my opinion as stated before that this is a more powerful culture wars issue for the right wing and that progressives would be better off not investing in supporting trans women athletic participation. As in its just not worth the backlash to the entirety of LGBT civil rights aspirations 

Agree.  I'm pretty moderate, leaning left, and support all manner of LGBT rights.  Gay marriage, gay adoption, equal protection under the law, etc.  But a former man competing in women sports is just clearly unfair.  If as you say, the numbers are tiny anyhow, this type of "discrimination" shouldn't impact many.  I'm old enough to remember Renee Richards competing on the professional tennis circuit.  There was huge controversy at the time, but she ended up not winning very much.  If she had....would have been chaotic.  Even Richards, in hindsight, confessed years later that she had an unfair advantage.

[scubascuba3]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the Trans section rather than gay section?

 

Trans participating in women events is simply unfair but the powers that be are too woke to see logic

[Jingthing]

The reason I think I have correctly framed this as a right vs  left culture wars issue is because the activists trying to ban trans female participation are usually the same people trying to:

 

Restrict toilet access

Ban medical care for trans youth

Ban teaching or even mentioning trans people in schools

 

Hateful policy positions as above directly lead to violent bullying and increased suicide rates.

 

But on the athletic participation issue the anti trans activists actually have defensible reasons of fairness to cisgenders.

 

So I say just surrender on that particular issue but continue to fight against the bigots more generally.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jingthing

[JonnyF]

19 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The reason I think I have correctly framed this as a right vs  left culture wars issue is because the activists trying to ban trans female participation are usually the same people trying to:

 

Restrict toilet access

Ban medical care for trans youth

Ban teaching or even mentioning trans people in schools

 

Hateful policy positions as above directly lead to violent bullying and increased suicide rates.

 

But on the athletic participation issue the anti trans activists actually have defensible reasons of fairness to cisgenders.

 

So I say just surrender on that particular issue but continue to fight against the bigots more generally.

Even Caitlyn Jenner has come out and said its unfair. I guess she can now be labelled a far right bigoted transphobe. 

 

No doubt racist too lol.

 

The left need to focus on winning arguments instead of throwing out lazy insults.

[Jingthing]

Jenner is known to be a right winger!!!

She doesn't represent.most trans women any more than Candace Owens represents most black women!

 

 

[Sparktrader]

On 3/22/2022 at 2:19 PM, Jingthing said:

Then it won"t be resolved because that won't happen.

 

Not enough so called others.

 

Most trans women would not accept to compete in that category even if there were.

 

Red states would never fund it.

 

It's a complete non starter.

Men and women should compete together. Either you are the best or you arent. John Mcenroe is right. Serena would be ranked 700 in the mens.

[Sparktrader]

On 3/26/2022 at 12:44 PM, Jingthing said:

Jenner is known to be a right winger!!!

She doesn't represent.most trans women any more than Candace Owens represents most black women!

 

 

Most strength is formed by age 18. They clearly are stronger than women. Still Id just merge the lot. No favours.

[mtls2005]

The right-wing can make a wedge issue out whole cloth. They can make Incandescent light bulbs, and low water pressure wedge issues. Heck they could make a ham sandwich a wedge issue.

 

They only care about dividing and not uniting. They are for nothing, and against everything. 

 

The LGBQT Tent is huge, inclusive and welcoming. To start tossing folks out of the tent whom you may not like or agree with, just to have a smoother path for your own specific situation would be a HUGE mistake. If you cave on this, the right wing won't just stand down. They'll keep coming until you or your children are in forced conversion therapy "camps".

 

 

On 3/22/2022 at 5:37 AM, Jingthing said:

Keeping in mind the cliche pick your battles wisely, should this be a battle that LGBT politics should wisely choose to NOT pick?

Unequivocally, NO! Fight every battle, for everyone.

 

 

Any discussion with my daughter - I only have a son, and he does participate in one single D3 sport - would start off with the question: "Why do you participate in sport?" 

 

Is it to compete? To be part of a team? To reach/exceed your personal limits?

 

Or is it only to "win"? And if you don't win are you a failure?

 

I would hope she answered these questions as yes, yes, yes and no, no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by mtls2005

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

The right-wing can make a wedge issue out whole cloth. They can make Incandescent light bulbs, and low water pressure wedge issues. Heck they could make a ham sandwich a wedge issue.

 

They only care about dividing and not uniting. They are for nothing, and against everything. 

 

The LGBQT Tent is huge, inclusive and welcoming. To start tossing folks out of the tent whom you may not like or agree with, just to have a smoother path for your own specific situation would be a HUGE mistake. If you cave on this, the right wing won't just stand down. They'll keep coming until you or your children are in forced conversion therapy "camps".

 

 

Unequivocally, NO! Fight every battle, for everyone.

 

 

Any discussion with my daughter - I only have a son, and he does participate in one single D3 sport - would start off with the question: "Why do you participate in sport?" 

 

Is it to compete? To be part of a team? To reach/exceed your personal limits?

 

Or is it only to "win"? And if you don't win are you a failure?

 

I would hope she answered these questions as yes, yes, yes and no, no.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get what you're saying for sure but I'm not suggesting toss out transgenders per se. I am saying the sports thing is a losing issue with no hope. Similar to the woke thing. We're losing badly. Better to focus on core fairness issues such as toilet access, health care including  youth transition access, anti bullying  etc. Look at the supreme court. Its not only lgbt issues but all progressive issues. The US is basically very close to fascism already. It's a 5 alarm fire. Time to face reality or its really game over for generations. May be too late already.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jingthing

[Jotnar]

Men competing against women in sports should be the last straw, for any left who still watch sports.

 

Pros competing against amateurs, the dosing, the 'fixed' competitions, the paid competitors just to show, along with non national ringers, if those weren't enough, then surely men vs women has got to break that camel's back.

 

Didn't mention the silly woke protesting, how oppressed these millionaires upbringing was.  Don't waste your time & money.

[Jingthing]

The thing about the trans sports issue is that opponents of it actually have very strong rational reasons. Yes there are even at least potential non trans victims of allowing trans in competitive sports  We want civil rights but we shouldn't want to hurt others  Many of them are the very same people that are simply bigots and opposed to trans civil rights in general on all issues. But they can use the sports issue to give their hatred a patina of respectability. So.I still say the mainstream LGBT civil rights movement should compromise on this issue. Now if I was a public figure making this point I would be canceled and crucified by progressives and the current mainstream LGBT.civil rights movement. Sorry that is wrong and arguably as wrong as right wing bigotry  All or nothing! How about evaluating each specific issue on its merits?  In the pursuit of ideological purity and unlimited LGBT solidarity, we're giving an unearned gift to our bigoted enemies. 

 

A related issue is about pronouns and associated "woke" gender stuff. Younger people, people in progressive bubbles may be fully on board with all that, but the majority are not  Again its a gift to our enemies to insist that everyone accepts and complies NOW. The right wing gets huge benefits from mocking wokeness. Why not just realize that such big changes in public perceptions take a long time?

Edited May 8, 2022 by Jingthing

[BritManToo]

34 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The thing about the trans sports issue is that opponents of it actually have very strong rational reasons. Yes there are even at least potential non trans victims of allowing trans in competitive sports  We want civil rights but we shouldn't want to hurt others  Many of them are the very same people that are simply bigots and opposed to trans civil rights in general on all issues. But they can use the sports issue to give their hatred a patina of respectability. So.I still say the mainstream LGBT civil rights movement should compromise on this issue. Now if I was a public figure making this point I would be canceled and crucified by progressives and the current mainstream LGBT.civil rights movement. Sorry that is wrong and arguably as wrong as right wing bigotry  All or nothing! How about evaluating each specific issue on its merits?  In the pursuit of ideological purity and unlimited LGBT solidarity, we're giving an unearned gift to our bigoted enemies. 

My thoughts are,

There should be no sexual partitioning in any sports.

Sure, divide them into weight categories, but that's it.