Don't mention the war?

[StreetCowboy]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why would Russia do so?

Presumably that is why the question never arose.

Russia knew full well that if they got involved, it would not end well for them, whereas in Ukraine, they can claim it is a feud with their neighbours, and threaten escalation if others get involved.  If I was the USA, I would veto Mongolia’s membership of NATO, but maybe Mongolia will rely on China for protection.  The Taliban must be feeling like Kings Of The World.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I wasn't aware the topic was other posters, but you seem to have a lot to say about them.

So, yes, perhaps we could stick to the topic without the flaming.

A series of off topic baiting and troll posts

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Presumably that is why the question never arose.

Russia knew full well that if they got involved, it would not end well for them, whereas in Ukraine, they can claim it is a feud with their neighbours, and threaten escalation if others get involved.  If I was the USA, I would veto Mongolia’s membership of NATO, but maybe Mongolia will rely on China for protection.  The Taliban must be feeling like Kings Of The World.

You raise an interesting point. If we ( the west ) are so invested in freedom and democracy ( LOL ) that we risk WW3 by getting involved in the Ukraine conflict, why are we allowing the Taliban to rule Afghanistan, when they are fundamentally opposed to freedom and democracy? I guess all those Allied troops died for nothing and it was a complete waste of money, but that's for a different conversation.

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You raise an interesting point. If we ( the west ) are so invested in freedom and democracy ( LOL ) that we risk WW3 by getting involved in the Ukraine conflict, why are we allowing the Taliban to rule Afghanistan, when they are fundamentally opposed to freedom and democracy? I guess all those Allied troops died for nothing and it was a complete waste of money, but that's for a different conversation.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

There are plenty here who outright deny the war crimes or attempt to greatly diminish them. All who engage in that reprehensible conduct are Putin apologists.

Although some people have tried to discuss about whether war crimes actually took place , but they were just labelled as  being trolls and Putin apologists and calls for them to be silenced ,  No wonder they now prefer to remain quiet on the subject 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although some people have tried to discuss about whether war crimes actually took place , but they were just labelled as  being trolls and Putin apologists and calls for them to be silenced ,  No wonder they now prefer to remain quiet on the subject 

The cancel culture on this very forum.

It's why on certain threads a small clique end up talking among themselves without any opposing input.

[StreetCowboy]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The cancel culture on this very forum.

It's why on certain threads a small clique end up talking among themselves without any opposing input.

Are you accusing me of not disagreeing with you?

 

By the way, I have suggested by way of report that the Mods cull this thread of non-war-related posts, and furthermore close the thread as a shill forest. 
 

I expect them to ignore  the suggestion, and ban me for commenting on moderation, so I suggest you listen to Summer Holiday until this blows over

[Lacessit]

50 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmmm, you write as if you actually know what is going on in Putin's head- really?

 

I worked for years in Saudi, and the Bedouin were the most lovely people I've met anywhere, so let's not malign all Arabs please.

Putin has repeatedly expressed his desire to revive the USSR. I am just taking him at his word.

You worked with Arabs in Arabia, I worked with them in Port Hedland, Australia. Perhaps I got the dregs.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, StreetCowboy said:

Are you accusing me of not disagreeing with you?

 

By the way, I have suggested by way of report that the Mods cull this thread of non-war-related posts, and furthermore close the thread as a shill forest. 
 

I expect them to ignore  the suggestion, and ban me for commenting on moderation, so I suggest you listen to Summer Holiday until this blows over

No, I was responding to a different poster.

[Lacessit]

10 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The cancel culture on this very forum.

It's why on certain threads a small clique end up talking among themselves without any opposing input.

It's a bit difficult for Russian apologists to explain away satellite photos of civilians left lying in the streets after being executed by Russian soldiers, but they do give it their best shot.

[ozimoron]

16 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although some people have tried to discuss about whether war crimes actually took place , but they were just labelled as  being trolls and Putin apologists and calls for them to be silenced ,  No wonder they now prefer to remain quiet on the subject 

They are perfectly entitled to produce evidence to back up their bullsh*t but none have been able to do so. Meantime, there is more than enough INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence that war crimes have been committed on a grand scale.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Putin has repeatedly expressed his desire to revive the USSR. I am just taking him at his word.

You worked with Arabs in Arabia, I worked with them in Port Hedland, Australia. Perhaps I got the dregs.

No you didn't. The Saudis had to pay well above market rate to get westerners to stay there as most I knew hated the religious police. If it wasn't for them, Saudi would have been a fantastic place to work.

Most of the men I met were OK ( forbidden to meet women there ), and some were very nice, but some were really horrible.

[Lacessit]

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Although some people have tried to discuss about whether war crimes actually took place , but they were just labelled as  being trolls and Putin apologists and calls for them to be silenced ,  No wonder they now prefer to remain quiet on the subject 

Bombed hospitals and apartment buildings, civilians executed in the streets of Bucha. How much evidence of war crimes do you need, or do you think the Ukrainians did it all?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

It's a bit difficult for Russian apologists to explain away satellite photos of civilians left lying in the streets after being executed by Russian soldiers, but they do give it their best shot.

Photos of dead people means nothing if we don't know who killed them. The propaganda says it was Russian soldiers, and that may be true, but they might also have been killed by other people for other reasons; perhaps because they were collaborators with the Russians, but at this stage we don't know the facts.

Unless photographic evidence of a Russian soldier shooting them emerges, it's not a foregone conclusion.

 

The above does not make me a Putin apologist, and any personal attack on me will be reported.

[ozimoron]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

Photos of dead people means nothing if we don't know who killed them. The propaganda says it was Russian soldiers, and that may be true, but they might also have been killed by other people for other reasons; perhaps because they were collaborators with the Russians, but at this stage we don't know the facts.

Unless photographic evidence of a Russian soldier shooting them emerges, it's not a foregone conclusion.

 

The above does not make me a Putin apologist, and any personal attack on me will be reported.

It's a long bow to stretch to make the case that Ukrainians did this to their own just to discredit Russia and its "collaborators".

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Bombed hospitals and apartment buildings, civilians executed in the streets of Bucha. How much evidence of war crimes do you need, or do you think the Ukrainians did it all?

Which could have been avoided if a negotiated settlement had been reached before the conflict started. I wasn't in the room, but from what I've read it seems it was the Ukrainian leader that chose war. Like I said, I wasn't in the room, and Putin might have just preferred to send his troops in to kill loads of people and blow up cities. Perhaps we'll learn what really happened sometime in the future when it becomes history.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

It's a long bow to stretch to make the case that Ukrainians did this to their own just to discredit Russia and its "collaborators".

Stuff happens in every war, and every side loses it's way in the heat of battle. Plenty examples of such from Vietnam war.

That was just one possible explanation, and there could be others, but at this stage the evidence is lacking. I'm just saying we don't actually know at this point in time.

Edited April 6, 2022 by thaibeachlovers

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which could have been avoided if a negotiated settlement had been reached before the conflict started. I wasn't in the room, but from what I've read it seems it was the Ukrainian leader that chose war. Like I said, I wasn't in the room, and Putin might have just preferred to send his troops in to kill loads of people and blow up cities. Perhaps we'll learn what really happened sometime in the future when it becomes history.

I think choosing war instead of invasion and subjugation is not unreasonable. 
When your neighbour makes that choice, I think we all have an obligation to abstain from invasion.

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No you didn't. The Saudis had to pay well above market rate to get westerners to stay there as most I knew hated the religious police. If it wasn't for them, Saudi would have been a fantastic place to work.

Most of the men I met were OK ( forbidden to meet women there ), and some were very nice, but some were really horrible.

Are you contradicting yourself? On the one hand you're telling me to not malign Arabs, now you are saying some were horrible.

My experience with Arabs was they were the most work-shy race I ever encountered, and also the most delusional. During the Six-Day War of 1967, when the Israelis destroyed the entire Egyptian air force on the ground, the Arabs I worked with were quite convinced Arab armies were knocking on the doors of Jerusalem. Same thought pattern when the Yom Kippur war occurred in 1973.

 

[StreetCowboy]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Stuff happens in every war.

Do you have any evidence of that?

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, Lacessit said:

Are you contradicting yourself? On the one hand you're telling me to not malign Arabs, now you are saying some were horrible.

My experience with Arabs was they were the most work-shy race I ever encountered, and also the most delusional. During the Six-Day War of 1967, when the Israelis destroyed the entire Egyptian air force on the ground, the Arabs I worked with were quite convinced Arab armies were knocking on the doors of Jerusalem. Same thought pattern when the Yom Kippur war occurred in 1973.

 

Oh dear, I never said all Arabs were lovely. I just said that not all were awful. IMO one shouldn't despise an entire population because of a few.

 

Much like people in every country I've been in.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Do you have any evidence of that?

Are you being serious? Sometimes it's hard to know.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Stuff happens in every war, and every side loses it's way in the heat of battle. Plenty examples of such from Vietnam war.

That was just one possible explanation, and there could be others, but at this stage the evidence is lacking. I'm just saying we don't actually know at this point in time.

Just utter garbage.

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas

 

The Russian Military Has Descended Into Inhumanity

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/bucha-ukraine-bodies-russian-military-crimes/629485/

 

Pentagon Accuses Russia Of 'War Crimes,' Vows To Assist With Evidence Collection

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-borrell-mariupol-war-crime/31763025.html

 

French and US presidents urge harsher sanctions against Moscow after reports of atrocities in Bucha

https://www.ft.com/content/7e1670e8-c035-4cef-af59-3691414546a1

 

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

It's just a forum, not a meeting of the G7, and we should be able to post without getting abused by anonymous people. If he's wrong you can present your "facts" to correct him.

Can you highlight the abuse that was shown?

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which could have been avoided if a negotiated settlement had been reached before the conflict started. I wasn't in the room, but from what I've read it seems it was the Ukrainian leader that chose war. Like I said, I wasn't in the room, and Putin might have just preferred to send his troops in to kill loads of people and blow up cities. Perhaps we'll learn what really happened sometime in the future when it becomes history.

Link to what you have read, please.

Putin has been known to use poison on his political opponents, he's not going to balk at killing civilians.

It's fantasy to think you can negotiate a settlement with a dictator. Chamberlain found that out the hard way.

The Budapest Memorandum was signed by the Russian Federation. It guaranteed the sovereignty of Ukraine, free of economic and military coercion, on condition Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal. It's a matter of history who honored that agreement, and who did not.

 

[coolcarer]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which could have been avoided if a negotiated settlement had been reached before the conflict started. I wasn't in the room, but from what I've read it seems it was the Ukrainian leader that chose war. Like I said, I wasn't in the room, and Putin might have just preferred to send his troops in to kill loads of people and blow up cities. Perhaps we'll learn what really happened sometime in the future when it becomes history.

Russia never said it was going to invade, actually it continually denied it and instead carried on their ruse with Belarus that it was just a military exercise. Until that is they carried out an unprovoked attack. I know you rightly said you weren’t in the room but not knowing even that basic fact makes it appear you’ve not researched this in the slightest.

 

that part of history has already been made

Edited April 6, 2022 by coolcarer

[Mac Mickmanus]

50 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

They are perfectly entitled to produce evidence to back up their bullsh*t but none have been able to do so. Meantime, there is more than enough INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence that war crimes have been committed on a grand scale.

Quite a few people would choose not to enter into a discussion when other people use the words like "their bullsh*t" when talking about a subject 

[ozimoron]

19 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Quite a few people would choose not to enter into a discussion when other people use the words like "their bullsh*t" when talking about a subject 

If they don't support their claims with links to evidence others are entitled to call them out on it. It's a constant problem here that the Putin apologists don't make any effort to do so. For obvious reasons.

[ozimoron]

Evidence that Russian troops murdered hundreds of Ukrainian civilians is leading some U.S. lawmakers to insist that America and its allies keep sanctions on Moscow so long as Vladimir Putin remains in power — even if he withdraws from Ukraine.

The sentiment is likely to grow in a Congress where anti-Putin feeling is strong and bipartisan. It could put the White House in a tricky position, making it potentially harder to bring peace to Ukraine by enticing Putin through sanctions relief.

The lawmakers want to punish Putin for what he’s done to Ukraine and innocent civilians in particular, and they recoil at the idea of allowing Russia’s economy to be revived with Putin still in power, in part because they don’t trust him not to re-invade Ukraine later.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/06/biden-russia-putin-sanctions-00023429

[ozimoron]

Historically, I have never seen this. Every time a crime is discovered, they [Russia] deny it the same day in detail. These quick denials are explained by the acceleration due to social media, and by the fact that the war led by [President Vladimir] Putin is supported by unimaginable propaganda. Any loopholes in the propaganda must be closed right away.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/french-priest-renowned-for-uncovering-massacres-warns-of-buchas-everywhere/