Raw Pork

[chingy_]

i knew i shouldn't come to this thread, now i can't seem to eat anything medium rare, and no sushi for awhile either.

[maerim]

i knew i shouldn't come to this thread, now i can't seem to eat anything medium rare, and no sushi for awhile either.

Just to make all smug vegetarians who are reading think a bit about all those raw vegetables they eat.

You must have seen those little 6 wheel tankers knocking about they come when the septic tank is full and suck all the waste out.

All well and good now where do you think they dump it?

It's used as fertiliser with no treatment whatsoever straight on the the fields.

Heres the good bit, there have now been cases of hepatitis from eating these products of organic farming.

So remember, don't eat the food, don't drink the water and on no account breathe the air and you should with any luck be OK.

[bartender100]

I got served pinky under cooked pork in a french restaurent in jomtien,they were very put out when I explained that pork should never be eaten like that.

[maerim]

All things bright and beautifull the lord God made them all.

On one of his or her off days God also made this.

Dracunculiasis is a disease caused by the parasitic worm Dracunculus medinensis or "Guinea worm". This worm is the largest of the tissue parasites affecting human. The parasite migrates through the victim's subcutaneous tissues causing severe pain especially when it occurs in the joints. The worm eventually emerges (from the feet in 90% of the cases), causing an intensely painful oedema, a blister and an ulcer accompanied by fever, nausea and vomiting.

People get infected with Guinea worm disease by drinking water contaminated with Dracunculus larvae. In the water, the larvae are swallowed by small copepods ("water fleas"). The worms mature inside the water flea and become infective in about 10 days. Once the worms have matured inside the water flea, any person who swallows contaminated water becomes infected.

Once inside the body, the stomach acid digests the water flea, but not the Guinea worm. During the next year, the Guinea worm grows to a full-size adult. Adult worms are up to 3 feet long and are as wide as a spaghetti noodle.After a year, the worm will migrate to the surface of the body. As the worm migrates, a blister develops on the skin where the worm will emerge. This blister will eventually rupture, causing a very painful burning sensation. For relief, persons will immerse the affected skin into water. The temperature change causes the blister to erupt, exposing the worm. When someone with aGuinea worm ulcer enters the water, the adult female emerges from the wound and releases a milky white liquid containing millions of immature worms into the water, thus contaminating the water supply.

People, in remote, rural communities who are most commonly affected by Guinea worm disease do not have access to medical care. Therefore, ulcers may take many weeks (8 weeks average) to heal; often becoming infected with bacteria. This causes disabling complications, such as locked joints or even permanent crippling. Each time a worm emerges, persons may be unable to work or resume daily activities for an average of 3 months. This usually occurs during planting or harvesting season, resulting in heavy crop losses. Parents who have active Guinea worm disease cannot care for their children. They also cannot tend or harvest or crops, which leads to financial problems for the entire family.

Once the worm emerges from the wound, it can only be pulled out a few centimeters each day and wrapped around a small stick. Sometimes the worm can be pulled out completely within a few days, but this process usually takes weeks or months.

Make you think doesn't it? I for one will never look at a spagetti noodle in the same way ever again.

[12call]

[mbkudu]

I am waiting in anticipation of a night of "toilet marathon". Got fed the usual disgusting looking meat salad (which usually turns out to be quite nice) by my GF only to discover it contains raw pork!

I was always under the impression that pork is never safe raw......woe is me!

Anybody survived this ordeal before, please tell me I am not gonna die!

So, Eyespan, I guess you've had enough here. You won't be eating any more raw

meat of any kind, right?

[rainman]

okay, enough about worms. lets talk about the ebola virus, shall we?

[Johpa]

I have been eating raw pork, laap dip, for over 20 years up in the hills of Chiang Mai without any ill effects. I assume it is like the water in the hills, which I can drink of freely, whereas I would not drink tap water in the low lands on a regular basis.

Anyone who has spent time in the rural north knows well that laap dip is a very popular dish amongst both the Khon Muang and the other peoples living in the region. I would venture to say that it is the signature cultural dish of the Khon Muang. It would normally only be prepared from fresh meat when slaughtering a pig for a festive occasion or for a family function. It is alays the dish of choice when hosting guests in the home.

Although there are minor and very treatable instances of worm infection in Chiang Mai, I know of no major serious diseases amongst the populace that arise from the eating of laap dip. Worm pills can be purchased everywhere for those unwilling to swallow some tobacco. But I think even these treatable cases are relatively rare as most of my Thai friends have been eating laap dip for decades without ill effect.

The sad thing is that fewer and fewer people are raising pigs in the home. Instead the meat from the large scale pig farms is replacing the local product. Since laap dip should only be made from the freshest of meat it is usually not made from the store bought pork although fresh pork can still be found in the more traditional local open air markets.

Laap dip eaten with some of the local forest greens accompanied by khao niow and some plaa tuu khem while washed down with some Mae Khong is the ultimate dining experience up north. And in the right season you can accompany that with a dish of keeng salee. Now we are talking Khon Muang culinary heaven.

[eyespan]

So, Eyespan, I guess you've had enough here. You won't be eating any more raw

meat of any kind, right?

Ahhh, the joys of a plate of sashimi carved from fresh swordfish or dogtooth tuna..... I'm not expecting to quit raw meat very soon.

Smoking causes cancer, I am chewing on a fag right now.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

So, Eyespan, I guess you've had enough here. You won't be eating any more raw

meat of any kind, right?

Ahhh, the joys of a plate of sashimi carved from fresh swordfish or dogtooth tuna..... I'm not expecting to quit raw meat very soon.

Smoking causes cancer, I am chewing on a fag right now.

After these three pages I am about to become an extremely conservative eater of well cooked foods. I'll give the culinary exotics a big miss.

[eyespan]

Most of the things that are enjoyed would very likely kill us. The reason we love life is a summation of all the things we enjoy.

The first drag of smoke on a crisp clear morning - death by cancer

The sight of a 100pound marlin teased to your lure - death by drowning

The rush of skydiving - death upon impact

The juicy ribeye thick and medium rare - mad cow disease

Making out with a new lover - AIDS

Lots of cold beer with your best pals - liver failure

Knocking out your boxing opponent - parkinsons' disease, concussion etc

Clean, firm slice of swordfish sashimi - whatever.

Here's to life!!!

[maerim]

This has nothing to do with raw pork but it will make you cross your legs and eys as well most probably.

If you want to risk swimming in the rivers of of South America

On 28 October 1997, one of us (Samad) attended a 23-year-old man from the town of Itacoatiara on the Amazon River who sought medical attention with obstruction of the urethra, having been attacked by a candirú. Prior to being attended, the patient remained untreated for three days and was only administered medication for pain. By the fourth day the patient presented with fever, intense pain, scrotal edema [swelling of the scrotum], and extreme abdomen distention from urine retention. Surgical removal of the fish was considered, but rejected in favor of endoscopy [insertion of a TV-equipped tube into the urethra]. The patient was anesthetized with 5% lidocain and the procedure was performed. The fish was grasped using an alligator-clip attachment on the endoscope and removed in one piece. Fortunately the fish was dead, and decay was beginning to soften its tissues. Tension on the spines had relaxed in death, and they no longer gripped. Had the candirú been alive, its removal would have been more difficult and resulted in greater trauma to the patient. The fish penetrated the victim's urethra while he was standing in the river urinating, actually emerging from the water and entering his penis, filling the entire anterior urethra [emphasis added]. He reported trying to grab hold of the fish, but it was very slippery, and it forced its way inside with alarming speed. The candirú's forward progress was blocked by the sphincter separating the penile urethra from the bulbar urethra. With the passage blocked, the fish had made a lateral turn and bitten through the tissue into the corpus spongiosum, creating an opening into the scrotum. Perfusion [flushing] of the urethra with sterile distilled water prior to endoscopy induced further immediate and pronounced scrotal edema, making it evident that the opening had allowed the perfusate to enter the scrotum. Although the patient had remembered the fish as being small, after extraction it measured 134 mm (51/2 in) [long], with a head width of 11.5 mm (7/16 in). . . . Some coagulated material was removed, revealing a wound on the bulbar urethra of 1 cm in diameter and associated with a small amount of local bleeding. Although the patient suffered immediate trauma, no long term effects of the attack were noticed 1 year after the incident.

I know they have found pirahanas in Bangkok I just hope they don't find these little charmers.

[ProThaiExpat]

This thread reminds me of when I was studying Merk's Manual, a short of synopsis of diseases and bodily conditions in man used by physicians as a ready reference, as a post grad student. Not surprisingly, I experienced almost every symptom of every disease in the book, at least in my mind.

There has not been a reported case of tricinosis (pork borne worms) contracted from domestic pork in the U.S. since before the second world war. There have been a couple of repotred cases contracted from eating wild bear meat and as KevenN reports, one case contracted from wild boar. However, to this day, the conventional wisdom in the U.S. is don"t eat undercooked pork. Thus, leathery pork is what you get, like it or not.l

Does anyone have any facts regarding the incidence of tricinosis in Thailand?

Ocean fish do not have worms, due to the water in which they swim. Worms only occur in fresh water fish. Sushi lovers relax. I am unaware of fresh water fish being served at a sushi bar.

I am still drinking Chaing Mai municpal water delivered through my fridge, as repported in another thread, without any affects to date.

Living life on the "edge" is really exciting. Remember what FDR had to say about fear.

[mbkudu]

When crossing a river with the water above waist high, keep one hand on your

pecker and a cork in yer bung hole.

[NedKelly]

I attended the funeral of a friends father in Pai (northern thai) and was served up the raw laab mentioned earlier. It was pork and we watched as it was mixed up with herbs and chillis and blood.......yes raw blood as well........we ate it with sticky rice and washed down with the usual rice whiskey. great stuff actually, very tasty. I was aware there may be a risk but had to give it a go. These dasy I go the the pharmacy and buy a worm tablet maybe twice a year. 38 baht and chewable. Hope they work. Can get normal worms whatever they are from just about any surface. So wash your hands with soap peoples.

Those terrible worms mentioned earlier are similar (maybe same) as ones that occur in Africa in the lakes in Zimbabwe. I am sure I read somewhere that the same ones are eveident in some still waters in Isaan !! No swimming for me inIsaan.

[maerim]

There has not been a reported case of tricinosis (pork borne worms) contracted from domestic pork in the U.S. since before the second world war. There have been a couple of repotred cases contracted from eating wild bear meat and as KevenN reports, one case contracted from wild boar. However, to this day, the conventional wisdom in the U.S. is don"t eat undercooked pork. Thus, leathery pork is what you get, like it or not.l

This is taken from the CDC web site

Is trichinellosis common in the United States?

Infection was once very common; however, infection is now relatively rare. From 1991-1996, an annual average of 38 cases per year were reported. The number of cases has decreased because of legislation prohibiting the feeding of raw meat garbage to hogs, commercial and home freezing of pork, and the public awareness of the danger of eating raw or undercooked pork products. Cases are less commonly associated with pork products and more often associated with eating raw or undercooked wild game meats.

So is this for an apetiser

Epidemiologic Notes and Reports Trichinella spiralis Infection -- United States, 1990

Since 1947, when the Public Health Service began to record statistics on trichinosis, the number of cases reported by state health departments each year has declined: in the late 1940s, health departments reported an average of 400 cases and 10-15 deaths each year; from 1982 through 1986, the number declined to an average of 57 per year (Figure 1) and a total of three deaths (1,2). Although this trend reflects a decline in the number of cases related to commercially purchased pork, recent outbreaks of trichinosis in Iowa and Virginia emphasize the continuing need for education about the dangers of eating inadequately cooked pork.

Des Moines, Iowa. From July 21 through September 3, 1990, 90 (36%) of 250 persons who attended or ate food taken from a wedding in Des Moines on July 14developed trichinosis*; most (approximately 95%) of the 250 persons had immigrated to the United States since 1975 from Southeast Asian countries. Of those who became ill, 52 (58%) were treated by physicians; one of the 52 was hospitalized.

Detailed case histories were obtained from 39 ill and 13 well persons who attended the wedding. Of the 39 ill persons, 34 (87%) ate uncooked pork sausage, compared with four (31%) of the 13 well persons (p less than 0.01, Mantel-Haenszel test); no other foods were associated with illness. The sausage had been prepared from 120 lbs of commercially purchased pork and was served uncooked, as is customary for that food item in Southeast Asian culture. No pork was available for analysis at the time of investigation.

[stroll]

Better stick to laab neua (beef) with lots of blood and raw liver. Another speciality of Northern Thailand.

[maerim]

Ocean fish do not have worms, due to the water in which they swim. Worms only occur in fresh water fish. Sushi lovers relax. I am unaware of fresh water fish being served at a sushi bar.

Round worms, or nematodes, in larval form are found in the guts and in the flesh of many fish marketed in the United Kingdom; two kinds predominate, the 'cod worm' and the 'herring worm'.

The 'cod worm', which is often found in cod, is also found in many other species. Its scientific name is Phocanema decipiens; other outdated scientific names are Porrocaecum decipiens or Terranova decipiens. It grows up to 4 cm long in fish, and varies in colour from creamy white to dark brown. It is frequently found in the flesh of fish, particularly in the belly flaps, where it often remains for long periods curled up and encased in a sac-like membrane produced by the fish tissue.

The 'herring worm' is often found in herring, mackerel, whiting and blue whiting, but it also occurs in many other species. Its scientific name is Anisakis simplex. It grows up to 2 cm long in fish, is almost colourless, and is found tightly coiled and encased in the guts and flesh, sometimes in considerable numbers, particularly in the belly flaps. Anisakis can migrate from guts to flesh in fish left ungutted after capture, notably in herring, mackerel and blue whiting.

So much for no worms in ocean fish

Better stick to laab neua (beef) with lots of blood and raw liver. Another speciality of Northern Thailand

Yes especially if you are a fan of this little monster along with whip worms, round worms, pinworms and a load more of these hangers on for a free meal.

The beef tapeworm occurs in people who often eat raw or rare beef. The beef tapeworm is the second largest tapeworm. It averages from 13 to 39 feet in length! Even longer tapeworms have been found in the small intestine of man. In some people, the beef tapeworm can cause abdominal pains, weakness, loss of weight, nausea, dizziness and other symptoms. According to Geoffrey Lapage, "poisonous substances produced by the worm can produce convulsions and fits." If the head of this tapeworm digs in too far into the intestinal wall, these injuries can be infected with bacteria and lead to ulceration of the intestinal wall.

Enjoy your supper.

[irelandais]

How about a nice veggie burger!

[stroll]

"How about a nice veggie burger!"

There could be larvae of the 'rim-worm hiding in there, you never know!

[maerim]

Intestinal parasites,love 'em or loathe 'em or even ignore them you can be sure of one thing they just love us.

[Johpa]

I attended the funeral of a friends father in Pai (northern thai) and was served up the raw laab mentioned earlier. It was pork and we watched as it was mixed up with herbs and chillis and blood.......yes raw blood as well........

Yes, laap dip is made by poring copious amounts of fresh blood over the fresh pork meat as you mercilessly pound the meat into minced madness with a machete or other large long bladed knife. The next step into the deeper realms of Khon Muang cuisinary delights would be to skip the meat and have a bowl of fresh pig blood, laap luat. This is eaten with some herbs, khao niow, fresh pork rinds as one can only find in Thailand, and of course washed down with your favorite brand of Thai whiskey.

And if all you brave new ex-pats can get that far then it is time to try crossing the insect barrier.

[ghengis]

My wife has just got off the phone to her friend Lek who has been living in the UK for many years. Lek had been complaining of stomach problems for more than 2 years, but her doctor said there was nothing wrong ... until yesterday when she discovered large live worm when she was having a crap. Her husband took her to the local hospital for treament (with the worm in a jar). This worm was the result of eating uncooked meat in Thailand.

[ProThaiExpat]

Maerim: Thanks for the imput. I stand, even better, I sit corrected. The information I provided was conventional wisdom gained from many years in Japan, where intestentinal worms abounded in those daysj, but largely attributed to human waste fertilizer. I had both tape and round worms while there. As previously posted in this thread, it was just ho-hum, take the pills every six months, and that was that.

The only caveat I have to your information is if the fish worms you speak of are of a type that infect humans and if these worms are found in the fish caught off Japan?

[ProThaiExpat]

I have always frozen all the meat I have brought h0me and eaten in Thailand, however, one poster suggested that freezing just holds the inpurities in suspension and they come alive when the meat thaws. Perhaps not according to maerims post from the CDC web site.

I wonder what is my point, since I eat pork in restaurants all the time and I am sure they take little or no precautions. Our only defense it would seem is the industrialization of the Thai meat and poultry production. The Sars outbreak was limited to non-industrial outside grown chickens and perhaps the pork production facilities for exported meat doesn't feed slop? Or garbage, if there is a difference.

[maerim]

Liufe is full of adventures.

My first Farang wife was one of those religious chefs, all I ever had from her kitchen was burnt offerings and human sacrifices, sort of if it's brown it's still cooking if it's black it's done.

My missus here serves up real tasty portions of raw pigs blood, laarb and all the rest of it but if it's all the same to you love I will give it a miss.

She is never sick or come to that are any of the family through eating this.

As for me I'm not putting my name in the hat thanks.

[ProThaiExpat]

Maerim: I found this site which discusses eating sushi in general and the few health risks, if any, in doing so. Your post regarding mackeral and cod seems right on and this thread discusses how the food preparers deal with the worms found in those particular fish.

http://www.13.waisays.com/fish.htm

[mbkudu]

I attended the funeral of a friends father in Pai (northern thai) and was served up the raw laab mentioned earlier. It was pork and we watched as it was mixed up with herbs and chillis and blood.......yes raw blood as well........

Yes, laap dip is made by poring copious amounts of fresh blood over the fresh pork meat as you mercilessly pound the meat into minced madness with a machete or other large long bladed knife. The next step into the deeper realms of Khon Muang cuisinary delights would be to skip the meat and have a bowl of fresh pig blood, laap luat. This is eaten with some herbs, khao niow, fresh pork rinds as one can only find in Thailand, and of course washed down with your favorite brand of Thai whiskey.

And if all you brave new ex-pats can get that far then it is time to try crossing the insect barrier.

Insects are no problem; I actually like them very much, especially the grasshoppers and crickets. The pig's blood and raw pork is something I can not

do.

[stroll]

BBQ scoppions make a tasty supplement to one's Kao Tom in the morning. Which parasites are hiding in there, I do not wish to be informed. But according to modern folklore, scorpions have medicinal qualities, I first come to try them when mother in law rejected a basket of roasts presented by a neighbour.

[KevinN]

As far as I know,all fish everywhere have worms,I always gut a fish when he is caught,salmon is a fish that you only have a few minutes to gut or it will belly burn and then you have lost a lot of money at the docks when you unload, But even the gutted fish have worms,fillet a fresh caught fish,lay the fillet on a white butcher paper overnite and look what is on the paper that crawled out of the meat the next morning.

You will also find a lot of the worms mairim spoke of when you fillet and then skin the fish,the worms will be right again the skin ,all coiled up like little brown hairs.and if left,the worms sometimes get thru the skin and leave the dead fish.

I had but cannot find a link to the inside of a japs skull that was having trouble and they opened his skull and there was a terrible nest of worms in there from eating sushi.,,no thanks on any meat that isn't cooked to 140 degrees F. internal temp.