Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[vinny41]

On 11/9/2024 at 8:49 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

Autolife are journalists, they have something in common with politicians (they don't let facts get in their way).  IMHO the only official source is DLT registrations.

 

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t care whether use Autolife or DLT, but we should stick to only one and not bicker over the numbers.

 

I can’t speak for other members, but  what interests me is trends.

 

How EV uptake compares to previous months and years, not in number of vehicles sold (which I find meaningless because the auto industry is on it’s knees) but as a percentage of total sales in the same category.

A forum member did contact Autolife a few months ago requesting information on what method  they were using to get their numbers but didn't receive an answer to the question

 

 

Edited November 10 by vinny41
typo

[Bandersnatch]

9 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t care whether use Autolife or DLT, but we should stick to only one and not bicker over the numbers

 

In a discussion with the typical troll we meet here, I would consider a published source would be seen as more credible than:

 

"here is a spreadsheet that I just cobbled together" 

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

In a discussion with the typical troll we meet here, I would consider a published source would be seen as more credible than:

 

"here is a spreadsheet that I just cobbled together" 

Here is a snapshot of a spreadsheet from the DLT

Its easy to find

Number of newly registered vehicles classified by fuel type (monthly)

Select relevant month

https://web.dlt.go.th/statistics/

[motdaeng]

i thought this topic was about electric vehicles in thailand, not pages of discussion about which statistics are right or wrong. it's starting to get boring and tiring to follow this topic, and i don't see any real value in these arguments over statistics ...

suggestion to the members in question: take a break for a month or start your own new topic!

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, motdaeng said:

i thought this topic was about electric vehicles in thailand, not pages of discussion about which statistics are right or wrong. it's starting to get boring and tiring to follow this topic, and i don't see any real value in these arguments over statistics ...

suggestion to the members in question: take a break for a month or start your own new topic!

Maybe the member that posted  numbers that can't be vertified by the stats from the offical data collector

DLT registrations should consider checking with their sources before posting

as  the official source for all vehicle registrations is the DLT website

https://web.dlt.go.th/statistics/

Edited November 10 by vinny41
add

[motdaeng]

 

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Maybe the member that posted  numbers that can't be vertified by the stats from the offical data collector

DLT registrations should consider checking with their sources ....

 

vinn41, give us a break. not everyone is as obsessed with numbers as you are. we’re talking about a few cars and some small differences in % after the coma. if it helps you to let it go, yes, you have a point, if it matters. but honestly it doesn’t ... 

[Pib]

My goodness is the cut-throat EV price war coming to an end....maybe moving into a slower pace trench warfare phase.  See below 11 Nov AutoLifeThailand article. 

 

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/avatr-no-discount/

 

AVATR cancels “cash-back” discount campaign to maintain brand image

 

Mr. Anuwat Inthraphuwasak, Chairman of the Executive Board of Infinite Automobile Co., Ltd., revealed that from the joint meeting of " Infinite Automobile " and " Eternity At One " as the official distributor of premium electric cars under the brand AVATR ( Avatar ) , the latest conclusion is to cancel the provision of cash discounts and marketing activities related to cash back discounts to maintain the image of the premium brand.

Previously, Chang'an Auto Southeast Asia Co., Ltd., the parent company, announced a sales promotion ( promotion ) to provide a cash discount of 100,000 baht during the launch in September, limited to 200 cars, which has been fully paid out. In October, there was a cash discount campaign of 60,000 baht, which the original plan was to provide this discount until the end of 2024 .

Read related news: AVATR distributor is generous! Pays 10 million to give discounts to customers who exceed the first lot quota.

The cancellation is expected to be officially announced at the latest during the upcoming Motor Expo 2024, or at the earliest on November 15 , 2024 .

“ We have decided to cancel the discount campaign to maintain the AVATR brand image and prevent misunderstandings in joining the price war. Instead, we will provide packages that enhance the value of the car and are in line with the lifestyle of consumers in this group .”

While from now on, it will focus on presenting the brand's premium luxury and technology that meets the needs of consumers, which is confident that it can compete with competitors in the same level in the market.

However, the supply of the first batch of AVATR 11 to enter the country is currently 500 units. There is a shortage of some supplies, with the first batch of only about 300 units. We are in the process of expediting understanding with consumers and finding solutions to achieve maximum satisfaction.

[HighPriority]

So, they are refusing to discount the cars they don’t have on the lot and therefore can’t sell ? 🤔

Itll be more interesting to see what they do when they have 500 cars they need to sell.

[motdaeng]

an interesting website for people who want more than just surface-level info about ev's ...

https://evclinic.eu/

 

 

https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginners-guide/

 

text taken from a review of the Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh:

" ...The first-generation Hyundai Ioniq is the only vehicle on which we have not had any type of intervention. Several acquaintances who own and drive them report absolutely no issues, and we have no cases in our laboratory. Prices range from €10,000 to €16,000. The battery system is composed of LGX POUCH cells, which have proven to be durable and high-quality. ... "

 

text taken from a review of the Nissan Leaf 1.gen and 2.gen:

" ... This vehicle is responsible for forming all diesel-oriented stereotypes against electric vehicles. It embodies the phrase “the whole battery needs to be replaced when it fails.” It has one of the worst chemical configurations in its battery system, with Pouch cells that are so problematic and irreparable that it’s shameful to even call this vehicle electric. We do not service them at all. The cells, due to the lack of thermal management, overheat and become permanently damaged, often involving all cells in the process. There are no higher-quality replacement cells available. ..."

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12 by motdaeng
typo

[mistral53]

7 hours ago, HighPriority said:

So, they are refusing to discount the cars they don’t have on the lot and therefore can’t sell ? 🤔

Itll be more interesting to see what they do when they have 500 cars they need to sell.

There is no equivalent to the Avatr 11 for sale in Thailand at their price point, which gives them quite some pricing power. They also have set themselves a moderate sales goal, suggesting they are going for a limited market segment that is not as price sensitive as the more mainstream offerings which presently undergoes cut-throat competition.

 

It will be interesting to see how this strategy works in general - luxury cars with a Chinese name? It's the next big thing in China, where sub-brands like Denza and Yang Wang from BYD are taking on premium brands from Europe at half the price?

[JBChiangRai]

MG4 on sale...

 

D model 599k

X-Power 899k

Edited November 12 by JBChiangRai
Spellification

[CLW]

On 11/4/2024 at 10:46 AM, Bandersnatch said:

Recent post from Autolifethailand to follow on from @mistral53 post above.

 

Which would be your choice?

 

 

 

 

Also mention the Zeekr Mix multi-purpose van. Expected price starting at 1.3 million THB. Only comparable car I could think of would be Volkswagen Multivan or the ID.Buzz at four times the price of the Zeekr.

 

https://autostation.com/cars/zeekr-mix-2024-electric-mpv-officially-launched-in-china/

 

[CLW]

On 11/6/2024 at 3:52 PM, mistral53 said:

NETA has a plant in Thailand - and of course this is not good news for owners of this brand, either.

 

https://carnewschina.com/2024/11/06/chinese-automaker-neta-reportedly-halts-production-and-cuts-salaries/

 

You beat it to me. Just read about this today morning in german car news. Neta has problems to sell his mid and upper range models (lacking quality and facing competetion?). And with the entry models no money to be made. In my opinion Neta is only successful in Thailand because they are cheap. In medium price range the cars from BYD, Changan or MG are much better quality.

[CLW]

On 11/12/2024 at 11:47 AM, JBChiangRai said:

MG4 on sale...

 

D model 599k

X-Power 899k

😭 I bought mine (X model, NOT X-Power) about one year ago for 899k

[Bandersnatch]

BYD Sealion 7 is the fully electric version of the BYD Sealion 6 plug-in hybrid.

 

The UK are only getting the 7 not the 6, while Thailand has the 6 and we don't know if we will get the 7 yet

 

 

 

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

BYD Sealion 7 is the fully electric version of the BYD Sealion 6 plug-in hybrid.

The UK are only getting the 7 not the 6, while Thailand has the 6 and we don't know if we will get the 7 yet

 

imho, the byd sealion 7 is essentially the suv version of the byd seal, sharing the same platform, motor, and other features ...

in malaysia, the sealion 7 is priced slightly higher than the byd seal ... i think the pricing will be similar in thailand ...

 

at the motor expo later this month in bangkok, the sealion 7 will be on display.

car transporters carrying the vehicle have already been spotted ...

 

 

     

 

Edited November 15 by motdaeng

[motdaeng]

i have been comparing the specifications and features of the byd sealion 7 across different regions (china, hong kong, malaysia, and europe). i noticed some differences, such as the platform used, charging capabilities, interior features, and engine performance etc.

my conclusion is that what is released in china may differ from what is available in the global market!

 

i quickly watched the sealion 07 presentation in malaysia and am quite sure there was a mistake (very poor charging time) in it.

btw, the top model byd sealion 7 in china and europe can charge max 240kw dc, malaysia only 150kw dc .....!

 

 

[motdaeng]

the zeekr 7x is a very interesting mid-range suv. it makes sense for zeekr to expand its lineup in thailand; with only two models (zeekr x and zeekr 009), the brand has a relatively weak presence in the market. who knows, maybe the zeekr 001or zeekr 007 will arrive in thailand first ...

 

there’s a lot happening in thailand’s ev market... and that’s a good thing!

 

https://www.zeekrglobal.com/

 

 

[matchar]

37 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

i have been comparing the specifications and features of the byd sealion 7 across different regions (china, hong kong, malaysia, and europe). i noticed some differences, such as the platform used, charging capabilities, interior features, and engine performance etc.

my conclusion is that what is released in china may differ from what is available in the global market!

 

i quickly watched the sealion 07 presentation in malaysia and am quite sure there was a mistake (very poor charging time) in it.

btw, the top model byd sealion 7 in china and europe can charge max 240kw dc, malaysia only 150kw dc .....!

 

 

The Malaysian Sealion is a 400V platform. European is 800V.

[JBChiangRai]

I'm looking forward to Thailand getting some of the larger luxury EV's from China.

[Pib]

DC charging rate of an EV can be way overhyped.   Let's take the 150KW DC charging rate of the Sealion with a 91KWH battery.

 

First, to charge at a 150KW rate at person will need to use a 150KW or greater DC charger which are very limited in Thailand.   The great, great majority of DC Fast Chargers in Thailand are 120KW (or less) chargers  with two charging outlets that share this 120KW which means when two EV are charging then 60KW would be the max achievable per vehicle.    And even if there is  only one vehicle at the charger each outlet on that 120KW charger "might still be limited" to 60KW max instead of it being able to pump-out120KW to the outlet---depends on the charger's design.    Using the PTT Station Pluz charging app and setting it to only show their DC chargers with at least 147KW and higher capability there were only 6 locations in all of Thailand on the PTT charging network.   

 

Second, even if a person is connected to some HUGE charger...say a 360KW charger...the Sealion's charging curve will only allow 150KW for "part of its charging process"...the approx 15% to 45% part....between 46% to 85% only approx 80KW max...and then above 85% around 45KW max.  

https://evkx.net/models/byd/sealion_7/sealion_7_excellence/chargingcurve/

 

An EV having a high charging rate capability is a good thing but a person can only take advantage of that higher charging rate if DC chargers exist to provide the required high power....and of course what portion of the EV's charging curve can accept the highest rate because it will "not" be for its entire charging curve from 0 to 100% with current battery technology.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 07:06 AM by Pib

[JBChiangRai]

Tesla Has the Highest Fatal Accident Rate of All Auto Brands, Study Finds
 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62919131/tesla-has-highest-fatal-accident-rate-of-all-auto-brands-study/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3MpTiyd7NgDb9aQas_K8g1l3fq2eAoLvUZVs-02iRv6ZbI5oroMGW3sfU_aem_1IqCwGFPfZreXTjsVUFCQw

[Pib]

Yeap...even if we lived in a world where all DC chargers had BIG charging capability, like say at least 360KW, a person needs to consider the "charging curve" of any EV they plan to buy "if", repeat, if a HIGH charging rate/fastest possible charging time is a priority/top consideration as to whether you buy or not.

 

Here's a real life example of how a vehicle's charging curve affects charging rate/speed.  I own a 2023 Atto 3 Extended Range with 60.5KW battery and max charging rate of 89KW.  But that charging rate is only achievable at a DC charger with at least 180KW capability where it will pump-out 90KW to each of its two DC outlet cables.   Now of course a single connector DC charger with 90KW capability would work also but I haven't run across any such single outlet charger's yet with 90KW.

 

The Atto's charging curve allows an approx 89KW max charging rate...and this max charging rate only occurs between approx 5% to 63%.  Then from approx 64% to 85% the max rate allowed is approx 57KW... then from approx 86% to 99% the max rate allowed is approx 32KW.. and finally from 99% to 100% it tapers down to around16KW.  Charging "steps"...a charging staircase so to speak is in affect.   Note: and I have seen up to 89.1KW charging rate twice on my Atto when I was doing some DC charging "tests" at an EA Anywhere 180KW charger around 9 months ago.  And that "very same charger" has since been downgraded from an 180KW charger to a 110KW charger with one 60KW outlet and one 50KW outlet.  Don't know why EA Anywhere had to downgrade the charger's KW capability...maybe a power limitation of feeding power to it...maybe it had problems in trying to operated at 180KW.   Maybe EA Anywhere swapped-out the charger's guts to a lower capacity but if they did they retained the charger's battle-scared cabinet (and cables) which still has the same cracked DC lights, scratches in certain places, and other visible marks that are easy to remember.

 

A few weeks ago I went to above EA Anywhere charger to do a brief charging test so I could see the OBD2 data and found out this new 110KW configuration with DC cable 1 allowing 60KW max and the DC Cable 2 allowing 50KW max.  I had to use DC Cable 2 since several motorcycles  were parked in the DC Cable 1 space blocking its usage.   Anyway, my Atto would not charge anywhere close to a 50KW rate since I was using the DC cable 2 which only allowed 50KW max.

 

Why wouldn't it provide at least 50KW you may wonder?  Since my Atto was already charged to approx 70% when starting the test where the EV allows up to a 57KW charge rate the charger could not provide more than 50KW "even if the EV allowed it."  But since the EV was asking for 57KW but the charger would respond with "I can only give a max of 50KW...is that good enough?"....well, the EV was responding based on its charging curve design where 50KW is not one of its charging curve steps it must request the charger provide 32KW which is one of the EV's charging curve steps and the charger and EV agree to provide 32KW....the EV is now charging at 32KW because it's one of  vehicle's allowed charging curve "steps" as shown in the Atto charging curve below.

 

And a few days ago at another charger I used a single outlet ReverSharger 50KW charger (getting some free electrons) when the Atto was at around the 50% charge level and its charging curve  would allow up to a 89KW charging curve step (or even a 57KW step) what the charger and EV ended up agreeing to was a 32KW rate since the charger could only provide 50KW max and couldn't satisfy a 89 or 57KW charging curve step so the charger ended up providing 32KW.

 

Yeap....when evaluating an EV's advertised/hyped max charging rate be sure to take into considering the "charging curve" of the EV and available DC chargers to meet the requirements of the EV's charging curve.   Buying an EV that has some HIGH charging max charging rate is not going to provide you much benefit if there are no or few DC charger's available that can meet that HIGH rate and/or the EV's charging curve is actually going to operate at some much lower charging rates for a lot of the EV's 0 to 100% charge range.

 

Atto 3 Charging Curve for Example

https://evkx.net/models/byd/atto_3/atto_3/chargingcurve/

[motdaeng]

@Pib, thank you for your posts. 

 

i understand that charging speeds at many charging stations are still quite slow and have plenty of room for improvement. this definitely needs to change if thailand wants to advance electric mobility. for occasional long-distance drivers or those who don’t mind having a longer break, the current charging speeds at these stations aren’t really a problem.  

 

you’re absolutely right, high peak charging speed doesn’t mean much on its own. the charging curve is what really matters! charging speed (under ideal conditions) is usually measured from 10% to 80% charging time in minutes . however, this doesn’t tell us how many kwh (or km range) are actually added during that time.

 

if we know the net battery capacity, we can calculate the average charging power per minute (from 10% to 80%). this makes it easy to compare the charging performance of different electric vehicles, even if they have different battery sizes. however, car manufacturers don’t usually provide this information.

example:  
byd sealion 7 (230 kw dc charger)  
charging 10-80% takes 24 minutes  
net battery capacity: about 87 kwh  
calculation: 87 kwh × 70% ÷ 24 min = 2.5375 kwh/min (under ideal conditions with a 230 kw charger).

 

as a customer, i personally want a car with the latest technology. fast charging is also important because it could help with resale value in a few years. in the future, thailand's charging network will probably change, and tesla might let other cars use its chargers ... 

 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Yeap...even if we lived in a world where all DC chargers had BIG charging capability, like say at least 360KW, a person needs to consider the "charging curve" of any EV they plan to buy "if", repeat, if a HIGH charging rate/fastest possible charging time is a priority/top consideration as to whether you buy or not.

 

Here's a real life example of how a vehicle's charging curve affects charging rate/speed.  I own a 2023 Atto 3 Extended Range with 60.5KW battery and max charging rate of 89KW.  But that charging rate is only achievable at a DC charger with at least 180KW capability where it will pump-out 90KW to each of its two DC outlet cables.   Now of course a single connector DC charger with 90KW capability would work also but I haven't run across any such single outlet charger's yet with 90KW.

 

The Atto's charging curve allows an approx 89KW max charging rate...and this max charging rate only occurs between approx 5% to 63%.  Then from approx 64% to 85% the max rate allowed is approx 57KW... then from approx 86% to 99% the max rate allowed is approx 32KW.. and finally from 99% to 100% it tapers down to around16KW.  Charging "steps"...a charging staircase so to speak is in affect.   Note: and I have seen up to 89.1KW charging rate twice on my Atto when I was doing some DC charging "tests" at an EA Anywhere 180KW charger around 9 months ago.  And that "very same charger" has since been downgraded from an 180KW charger to a 110KW charger with one 60KW outlet and one 50KW outlet.  Don't know why EA Anywhere had to downgrade the charger's KW capability...maybe a power limitation of feeding power to it...maybe it had problems in trying to operated at 180KW.   Maybe EA Anywhere swapped-out the charger's guts to a lower capacity but if they did they retained the charger's battle-scared cabinet (and cables) which still has the same cracked DC lights, scratches in certain places, and other visible marks that are easy to remember.

 

A few weeks ago I went to above EA Anywhere charger to do a brief charging test so I could see the OBD2 data and found out this new 110KW configuration with DC cable 1 allowing 60KW max and the DC Cable 2 allowing 50KW max.  I had to use DC Cable 2 since several motorcycles  were parked in the DC Cable 1 space blocking its usage.   Anyway, my Atto would not charge anywhere close to a 50KW rate since I was using the DC cable 2 which only allowed 50KW max.

 

Why wouldn't it provide at least 50KW you may wonder?  Since my Atto was already charged to approx 70% when starting the test where the EV allows up to a 57KW charge rate the charger could not provide more than 50KW "even if the EV allowed it."  But since the EV was asking for 57KW but the charger would respond with "I can only give a max of 50KW...is that good enough?"....well, the EV was responding based on its charging curve design where 50KW is not one of its charging curve steps it must request the charger provide 32KW which is one of the EV's charging curve steps and the charger and EV agree to provide 32KW....the EV is now charging at 32KW because it's one of  vehicle's allowed charging curve "steps" as shown in the Atto charging curve below.

 

And a few days ago at another charger I used a single outlet ReverSharger 50KW charger (getting some free electrons) when the Atto was at around the 50% charge level and its charging curve  would allow up to a 89KW charging curve step (or even a 57KW step) what the charger and EV ended up agreeing to was a 32KW rate since the charger could only provide 50KW max and couldn't satisfy a 89 or 57KW charging curve step so the charger ended up providing 32KW.

 

Yeap....when evaluating an EV's advertised/hyped max charging rate be sure to take into considering the "charging curve" of the EV and available DC chargers to meet the requirements of the EV's charging curve.   Buying an EV that has some HIGH charging max charging rate is not going to provide you much benefit if there are no or few DC charger's available that can meet that HIGH rate and/or the EV's charging curve is actually going to operate at some much lower charging rates for a lot of the EV's 0 to 100% charge range.

 

Atto 3 Charging Curve for Example

https://evkx.net/models/byd/atto_3/atto_3/chargingcurve/

Yes indeed, every EV review video will always quote a “20 - 80% charge in xx minutes” but  I wonder if they are just using the max kWh charging capacity for that particular car and ignoring the charging curve, i seem to think so.

Plus they are no doubt ignoring the requirements required to achieve max charging ( finding an adequate charger and using it alone ), also the inevitable

charging loss.

 

As i have only used 120 kWh chargers for the last 3 months and thanks to the app have the relevant information at hand i decided to determine what my average charging speed has been for the last 1,012.62 kw free charging at Rêvershargers.

 

Now, the 120 kWh charger has given me max speeds of 114 kw when alone or 57 kw when shared on my 150 kw capable Seal.

So, a little calculation using the kw’s  and time taken tells me that my average charging speed has worked out at 67.50 kWh.

 

So, 67.50 kWh is not too shabby when you take into account sometimes i shared the charger and the charging curve but it is a long way from 120 kWh plus my calculations are based on the actual kw delivered by the charger and not the kw received due to charging loss so take a bit off for that !!

But, at least the price is right 😀

 

[motdaeng]

42 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

 

  

Edited Saturday at 11:40 AM by motdaeng
double post

[KhunLA]

24 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

if i understand it right, the average 67.50 kWh are for 60 min charging ...

that will result in 1.125 kwh/min, which seems to be ok, considering using not optimal charger, which will be hard to find anyway ... 

 

All our out and abouts, and I think we came across one 'super charger', which is useless for us anyway, as MG ZS will only accept 76kWh anyway.   Think most (PTT EV PLUZs) are 50-75kW cables.  All are 50kWh or more, that we use.

 

Seriously, only needed when O&A anyway, which for most folks, isn't that often anyway.  We take about 30 mins at stops, so car near 90-95% by the time we're ready to continue on anyway.   At a slow 50kWh, 30 mins is 25kWh, and that's more than 50% of our battery anyway (46.3kWh).   Takes it from 30-40% low, to 80-90% in 30 mins, for ball park estimate,  If arriving <30%, just a few minutes more to 90 or 95%..   Not really interested in driving that much further anyway, as means we've already been on the road 3-4 hrs.

[Pib]

Below website is one of the best for specs, charging curve, charging time, etc., for EV.  Now keep in mind the site's charging data they are using chargers which "equal/exceed" the EV;s highest charging capability...that is, if the EV can accept 150KW (or higher) then the EV is hooked to a charger that can fully satisfy that need at 150KW (or higher. But for many people they will not be able to locate/use a "fully satisfying" DC charger.  😁   

 

And considering each EV's charging curve will be different and often graphs-out to a strange shape curve instead of neat staircase type curve it can make it hard for a layman to get an accurate charging time just using math....but graphing the charging curve and using a stopwatch with a fully satisfying charger is more accurate.     

 

Below are a few snapshots regarding the charging times for a BYD Seal with 85KW battery and 150KW max charging rate.  Keep in mind the website is using a "fully satisfying" charger....can give the EV every KW the EV asks for.

https://evkx.net/models/byd/seal/

 

 

    Seal Charging curve....note it has a staircase stepping shape "except"  from 0-10% (typical for EVs) and from approx 65%-75% which is unique to the Seal.     

 

 

 

[Pib]

Some more charging curves of some EV models most people have heard of.   Charging curves that may not have a staircase curve at all but more like a ramp curve.....or a staircase with with an unexpected step-up for a brief period and then resuming a steeping down pattern.  All kinds of charging curve shapes. 

 

Toyota bZ4X

 

 

 

 

 

Tesla Model Y

 

 

BYD Dolphin

 

 

 

Zeekr X

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

This is a wee bit optimistic here in TH. 10-80% = 70% (30mins)

Usually takes us about 30-35 mins for 30-90/95% = 60-65%

About 30kWh added (65%)