Motorcyclist killed as 18 wheel truck turns into company in Samut Prakan

[richard_smith237]

Thunglom - I do agree with pretty much everything you patiently wrote. 

 

21 hours ago, Thunglom said:

When it comes to driver themselves – the sooner we drop the “blame game” the better. Most accidents are NOT caused by wildly stupid drivers they are caused by simple, elemental human error.

 In ‘other countries’ we are using as a basis of comparisons I would agree that ‘most accidents are not caused by wild stupid drivers actions....  

 

However, I’d question your comments in specific reference to Thailands accident statistics. 

I would argue a strong proportion of ’stupid actions’ are to blame for the accidents and high death rates. 

 

When a driver overtakes into oncoming traffic we can’t blame the road designers because they didn’t put in a central divide, we don't live in that perfect world. 

When a driver ‘rushes a red light’ we can’t blame the junction.

When a driver is blind drunk what else is at fault ?

 

I understand your point that engineering can improve the consequences when an incident occurs.

 

Yes, people are fallible and make mistakes... But looking at the phone, blowing through a red light, overtaking into oncoming traffic, driving while blind drunk is not a mistake....  these incidents happen in Thailand a lot more than they do in other nations we are drawing from as a comparison - people are directly at fault for their utterly stupid actions. 

 

People on the roads here knowingly do stupid stuff, knowingly take chances with their own safety and that of others... 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thunglom]

58 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I would argue a strong proportion of ’stupid actions’ are to blame for the accidents and high death rates. 

there is no evidence to suggest this in th statistics of crasg=hes - and it is the acceptance of this that allows the Safe System to work.

[Thunglom]

59 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

When a driver overtakes into oncoming traffic we can’t blame the road designers because they didn’t put in a central divide, we don't live in that perfect world. 

When a driver ‘rushes a red light’ we can’t blame the junction.

When a driver is blind drunk what else is at fault ?

Unless you drop th "blame game" you will never understand road safety. This is a science that has been accepted since the mid of last century - it has been developed and shown to work.

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yes, people are fallible and make mistakes... But looking at the phone, blowing through a red light, overtaking into oncoming traffic, driving while blind drunk is not a mistake....  these incidents happen in Thailand a lot more than they do in other nations we are drawing from as a comparison - people are directly at fault for their utterly stupid actions. 

The point is these aren't the main causes of accidents it is "normal" human error as shown above. In fact most of the incidents you describe can't happen on properly designed roads. The problem with most is that those who cite these instances are in fact just "believing their eyes" - this is just confirmation bias - most people have no idea of what they are looking at on any roads.

 

"Bad driving" is a symptom not the a cause.

This is not MY idea ... this is the opinion of safety organisations around the world.

organizations include…

·      The World Health Organization (WHO)  - https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/thailand/roadsafety/overview-en-final-25-7-19.pdf?sfvrsn=f9d7a862_2

·      Save the children Thailand - https://thailand.savethechildren.net/sites/thailand.savethechildren.net/files/library/Save%20the%20Children’s%20Work%20in%20Road%20Safety%20-%20The%207%25%20Project_1.pdf

·      ThaiRoads Foundation - http://www.thairoads.org/en/

·      International Road Assessment Program (iRAP) and Chulalongkorn University - https://irap.org/2018/11/new-thai-centre-of-excellence-chulalongkorn-university/

·      The Embassy of Sweden is coordinating a group called “the Embassy Friends of Road Safety (EFRS) - https://scandasia.com/tag/the-embassy-friends-of-road-safety-efrs/

·      Thailand Road Safety Observatory, TRSO -=http://www.atransociety.com/resources/pdf/pdfResearch2013-2018/2014/Project2014-006(Dr.Paramet).pdf

·      Arrive Alive - Association of Southeast Asian Nations Regional Road Safety Strategy and Action Plan (2005–2010) - https://www.adb.org/publications/arrive-alive-asean-regional-road-safety-and-action-plan-2005-2010

·      ASEAN TRANSPORT STRATEGIC PLAN 2016-2025 - https://www.itf-oecd.org/asean-transport-strategic-plan-2016-2025-and-progress-road-safety-initiatives

·      EU/ASEAN - https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/eu-and-asean-exchange-knowledge-and-best-practices-road-safety_en

·      Australia, Safe System Solutions  - https://www.austrade.gov.au/news/success-stories/australian-consultancy-helps-improve-road-safety-in-thailand

·      Bloomberg Philanthropies Initiative for Global Road Safety - https://www.bloomberg.org/public-health/improving-road-safety/

·      Office of Transport & Traffic Policy & Planning(OTP), Ministry of Transport - https://www.mot.go.th/about.html?dsfm_lang=EN&id=12

·      Thai RSC. - Accident road safety Data for Thailand - http://www.thairsc.com/eng/

·      World Bank - https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2019/03/26/working-towards-improving-road-safety-and-saving-lives-in-thailand

 

 

there are many.many more.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Thunglom

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

, I’d question your comments in specific reference to Thailands accident statistics

What stats do you question. the Thai statics are on their own pretty hopeless - the information gathered is gathered from various organisations and then analysed by organisations like the WHO - who are used to making sense of this kind of stuff. If you look at Thai stats and compare them to somewhere like the UK, they are a joke. This is why E number 5 "evaluation" is so important. Without fully analysing every crash and compiling a comprehensive databased of RTIs it is very difficult to make precise definitions of the situation However as we have many other countries around the world we can make educated guesses and at least a workable hypothesis if not in fact a theory.

Relying on personal observations and anecdotal evidence is not an option.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Thunglom

[richard_smith237]

16 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

The point is these aren't the main causes of accidents it is "normal" human error as shown above. In fact most of the incidents you describe can't happen on properly designed roads. The problem with most is that those who cite these instances are in fact just "believing their eyes" - this is just confirmation bias - most people have no idea of what they are looking at on any roads.

Thats my point...  In Thailand I suspect the main cause of serious injury and deaths are not from people who have made a mistake, but from those who know what they are doing is dangerous, but do it anyway. 

 

Human error and innocent mistakes clearly do make up for a lot of accidents in Thailand and these can be reduced by better road design, car design (passive and active) etc as you point out.

 

But, I still suspect the main cause of accidents in Thailand is not down to human error and innocent mistakes...  it is down to what could also be called ‘criminal negligence’ and people are to blame for this. 

 

By criminal negligence I mean: Dangerous driving / over taking on blind bends or while other vehicles are coming towheads you and expecting them to get out of the way / jumping lights, drunk driving, during under the influence of narcotics, excessive speeding, not maintaining vehicles etc, parents who put kids in cars without safety seats, have too dark a tint on the car car and can’t see at night... then there is simple negligence, those who don’t wear helmets or seatbelts, no working rear lights etc etc

 

This aspect of road safety in Thailand ‘could’ be tackled far more effectively with effective policing.

 

 

The ’negligence’ aspect of driving in Thailand is something I see daily. You are correct, it is confirmation bias, it is a bias I have confirmed daily - it is people who are at fault for breaking many of the traffic laws and simply riding / driving in a dangerous manner.

 

Blame will always need to be present because some people knowingly and deliberately break laws and rules put in place to protect each others. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

, I’d question your comments in specific reference to Thailands accident statistics

What stats do you question. the Thai statics are on their own pretty hopeless - the information gathered is gathered from various organisations and then analysed by organisations like the WHO - who are used to making sense of this kind of stuff. If you look at Thai stats and compare them to somewhere like the UK, they are a joke. This is why E number 5 "evaluation" is so important. Without fully analysing every crash and compiling a comprehensive databased of RTIs it is very difficult to make precise definitions of the situation However as we have many other countries around the world we can make educated guesses and at least a workable hypothesis if not in fact a theory.

Relying on personal observations and anecdotal evidence is not an option.

80% of Thailands road deaths are motorcyclists  - many / most motorcyclists do not wear a helmet, yet wearing a helmet is the law in Thailand.

 

You don’t want to blame anyone ?  - the police, the individual ?

 

Now, there are no statistics available to discern how many people were injured or died in motorcycle accidents who weren’t wearing a helmet.

There are no statistics available to highlight how many people were injured or died in vehicular accidents were not wearing seatbelts or who were in the back of a pickup. 

 

We are left with little choice but to rely on personal observations because the statics do not exist yet the obvious stares us in the face. 

 

 

 

IF overnight the nation is forced to wear proper motorcycle helmets, to wear their seatbelts and not drive while drunk massive inroads into the reduction in road fatality stats could be made... perhaps even a cut of as much as 1/3rd of road deaths (my guess, I know you want stats, facts or a group of letters such as 5 E’s).

 

Personal observations also matter.

 

So...  who is to blame that so many do not wear helmets or seatbelts... no blame game....  what can be done about this then? its already law and everyone ignores that. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by richard_smith237

[Thunglom]

50 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thats my point...  In Thailand I suspect the main cause of serious injury and deaths are not from people who have made a mistake, but from those who know what they are doing is dangerous, but do it anyway. 

No it isn't.

[Thunglom]

40 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

80% of Thailands road deaths are motorcyclists  -

Actually, probably not - the normal percentage is around 75% -of DEATHS.

the 80% refers to "vulnerable motorists - apart from motorcyclists this includes pedestrians, cyclists and other road users,

[Thunglom]

44 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

We are left with little choice but to rely on personal observations because the statics do not exist yet the obvious stares us in the face. 

 

Absolutely not - this is unscientific and misleading.

it has been shown that found that human error accounts for anywhere between 94% to 96% of all auto accidents - this is NOT bad driving as I explained above.

This is one of the main premises for the "Safe System" - and it has been shown to work - sure as eggs is eggs.

 

There is a huge problem here of both authorities (government) and the general public don't understand "evidence" - the plural of anecdote is not data.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Thunglom

[Thunglom]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

When a driver overtakes into oncoming traffic we can’t blame the road designers because they didn’t put in a central divide, we don't live in that perfect world. 

When a driver ‘rushes a red light’ we can’t blame the junction.

When a driver is blind drunk what else is at fault ?

Seeking to find a single cause for a crash is a fundamentally flawed approach to road safety, This is why the blame game doesn't work. it requires a combination of events to happen and blame doesn't help our understanding.

 

right - the 5 Es

When a driver overtakes - yes the design of the road can lead to perspective distortions, and E for driver education may help here too. Also it is AFTER he collides (if he/she does that the severity of the indcident is increased by the design and engineering the road.

remember that UK has almost the same number of collisions as Thailand, yet the deaths alone are one tenth of Thailand's at least.

when it comes to central divides, it is almost 100% that traffic is divided/separated wherever possible in the UK - just recently France has come under criticism for building 3 lane roads - (no divides!).

On UK and European roads the centre of 2-lane roads are CLEARLY marked and double lines are not just visible for the fist few months, they are desih=gned to be seen in rain, at night and even in fog.

 

Red lights - of course the junction has a role to play. Firstly European junctions almost ALL have cameras these days - but they also have a system of courts and fines that mean just about 100

5 any offenders will be fined and the penalties enforced (E#2 - Enforcement) Furthermore all traffic lights in Europe have clear land markings including a line where to stop and the idea of countdowns is frowned upon. Also te duration of the lights is computer controlled to reflect the flow of the traffic - in Thailand some lights last for several minutes and the drivers know this from the countdown - all the more reason to jump.

 

Drunk driving is usually around 30 to 35% of crashes in Thailand - this figure is about the same for countries like the USA and all over the world - in the most successful Safe System countries it is now coming below 20%. (back in the 1980s, 50% of the Swedish jail population was drink drivers. (No alcohol is permitted in the blood stream in Sweden. How are drunk drivers eliminated By prevention - prophylactic campaigns by governments reduce drunk drivers. the RTP's efforts - largely setting up checkpoints outside their own coop-shops is just risible. They can't hope to stop a drunk util he/she is ALREADY on the road and even then they catch a tiny number.They aren't trained to deal with drunk drivers, the equipment however good has to be used and CALIBRATED regularly and again the courts have to be able to deal with cases quickly and efficiently. something they are incapable of doing. 

So blame drunks all you like, it is the fault of the state that they are on the roads - it is the purpose of the Safe System to protect ALL road users - this even means drunks as well the people they crash into.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Thunglom

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

IF overnight the nation is forced to wear proper motorcycle helmets, to wear their seatbelts and not drive while drunk massive inroads into the reduction in road fatality stats could be made... perhaps even a cut of as much as 1/3rd of road deaths (my guess, I know you want stats, facts or a group of letters such as 5 E’s).

three Es - education, Enforcement and engineering. 

None of these can be done overnight. 

 

it' possible tat up to 40% of m/c deaths are those without helmets. but you have to understand that a helmet is to protect from glancing blows only and the road environment is so bad in Thailand you couldn't expect to reduce fatalities by half - even if ALL motorcycle riders and passengers were  wearing hats to British Standard BS 6658 or similar.. 40% is of 75% of total deaths but you wouldn't achieve that simple education. It might be several thousand but unfortunately the roads would still claim a huge portion of those numbers.

but of course the police don't have any trained officers to enforce this - they just raise 100 baht and send the rider on their way.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Thunglom

[Thunglom]

Motorcycles fatalities, injuries major and minor.

 

Thailand has about a 50/50 split in 2 and 4 wheeled traffic or ownership. 

In Vietnam Helmet wearing became compulsory in 2007;  it jumped from 30% to 93%.

It is estimated policy prevented approximately 2,200 deaths and 29,000 head injuries. V/N has a much higher percentage of motorcycles to cars than Thailand

You are unlikely to get similar results I Thailand on their own as has been pointed out the laws are not enforced. However the other factor is the road design and 50% content of “heavy” 4-wheeled vehicles. High speeds, higher impacts and poor road environment would lead to more serious consequences in many 2 / 4 wheel collisions

 

[richard_smith237]

9 hours ago, Thunglom said:

So blame drunks all you like, it is the fault of the state that they are on the roads - it is the purpose of the Safe System to protect ALL road users - this even means drunks as well the people they crash into.

I do like the information you are presenting and really believe Thailand could do with someone with your knowledge to guide and assist them in their efforts (or lack thereof) to mitigate RTA’s and road deaths. 

 

However, I’m struggling or misunderstanding this idea of ‘no blame’ - Of course, the state is also accountable for not putting measures in place to educate, enforce and also engineer to minimise the outcome when the former fails...  However, I just can’t escape the idea that people are also accountable and responsible for themselves and those around them.

 

Even with education and enforcement on a well engineered junction, with fast acting quality emergency response it must surely be evaluated that a person be penalised for failing to adhere to rules and regulations... 

 

IF all these people who love the letter E could come up with a word beginning with E which means penalise I’m sure we would see this included....    

 

My Point here is that while I agree with all the information you have presented I do not believe society should ever accept that an individual is not to blame when they knowingly brake rules and regulations.