Do I need lawyer or agent to check Chanute at land office

[Naamblar2014]

I have been Told that the land office wont transfer the property unless any mortgage is cleared

 

I feel I have a horror story developing on a property that I registered a mortgage on.

 

I bought land in my wife's name many many years ago.  I have been outside of Thailand now for about three years and have recently become concerned that she has sold my car without my permission. Not a Massive issue on the car apart from the abuse of trust,  but more importantly, the chanote that has the mortgage registered and mortgage documents were in the car.  She wasn't aware of this.  Now if someone were to present these to land office would they be able to purchase the land without clearing the mortgage and paying me the loan and considerable compound interest? I am worried that the mortgage documentation will have an old contact phone number for me.  I have tried to contact land office to update with my phone number so they will be able to contact me if wife attempts to sell.

 

I have emailed the Chonburi land office (may be wrong office) but haven't had any reply.  Does anyone have details of contact at Pattaya land office? Does anybody have any helpful contacts or tips?

 

Although this is an embarrassing situation to post publicly it is quite a stressful situation that is playing on my mind so I think worthwhile posting.

[scubascuba3]

I thought the bank held the chanote if there was a mortgage on it, seems not.

 

As i said in your other thread post, sounds like you need a lawyer to do the leg work

Edited May 1, 2022 by scubascuba3

[Naamblar2014]

Just now, scubascuba3 said:

I thought the bank held the chanote if there was a mortgage on it, seems not.

 

As i said in your other thread post, sounds like you need a lawyer to do the leg work

It wasn't a bank mortge.  In essence I was the bank in that I loaned her the money to purchase the property. I therefore held the titles.

[scubascuba3]

4 minutes ago, Naamblar2014 said:

It wasn't a bank mortge.  In essence I was the bank in that I loaned her the money to purchase the property. I therefore held the titles.

how do you know she didn't find the chanote in the car?

[LivinLOS]

The problem you face is not matter what the rules are on paper, the corruption and pure incompetence means that almost anything can happen. 

I would engage a lawyer, report the chanote lost (wifes job) get the replacement, etc ASAP. If she refuses to cooperate, you can safely assume shes in on the process and then its much more dicey.

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by LivinLOS

[Longwood50]

First off I am not sure what they could do with the mortgage.  This is money you owe.  My opinion is that the party that loaned you the money is recorded on the Chanote.  I would also assume they kept the house book.  They would have to go the Land Office and record the fact that the mortgage was paid off in order to clear the recording on the Chanote.   I would start with who you borrowed the money from and just inform them that the mortage papers were lost.  You may want to formally do that in writing with a registered letter following a phone call. 

With the Chanote number you should be able to go to the land office and view even print a copy of the chanote.  I am not certain what purpose that would serve.  The person in possession of your mortgage papers would not be able to remortage the property without proving to be its lawful owner nor could they sell it. 

 

[Tom H]

lawyer

[blackcab]

53 minutes ago, Naamblar2014 said:

Now if someone were to present these to land office would they be able to purchase the land without clearing the mortgage and paying me the loan and considerable compound interest?

 

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely as you would either have to appear in person with your passport to complete the sale, or you would have to supply documents notarised by a Thai embassy.

 

You don't really need a lawyer. Just go to the land office with a Thai speaker and your passport and ask for a photocopy of the chanote. You will be given a copy of what the land office has on file, which is the most up to date version.

 

The second to last entry should be the sale into your wife's name. The last entry should be the mortgage from yourself to your wife.

[Naamblar2014]

38 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

the corruption and pure incompetence means that almost anything can happen. 

That's what worries me!

[Naamblar2014]

43 minutes ago, Longwood50 said:

This is money you owe.  My opinion is that the party that loaned you the money is recorded on the Chanote.

Not Sure I have been clear.  I am the party that gave the money like a bank would give the money. In this case I am like the bank.  My wife borrowed money against the property. The purpose was to ensure she wouldn't borrow money from a loan shark against the property 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Naamblar2014

[Naamblar2014]

55 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

how do you know she didn't find the chanote in the car?

She has not said anything. But anything is possible.  Hence the reason why I want to know if the land office would process a sale without me being present to clear mortgage.

[scubascuba3]

51 minutes ago, Naamblar2014 said:

She has not said anything. But anything is possible.  Hence the reason why I want to know if the land office would process a sale without me being present to clear mortgage.

So this loan that you provided to her, is this official and noted on the chanote?

[Naamblar2014]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

So this loan that you provided to her, is this official and noted on the chanote?

Yes.

[scubascuba3]

8 minutes ago, Naamblar2014 said:

Yes.

That's the first bit of good news. I reckon you should get a lawyer though to go to the land office to ensure nothing underhand will happen.

 

Magna Carta, farang called Tony gets recommended a lot, i understand not a lawyer, more of a coordinator with thai lawyers at same place

[sanuk711]

2 hours ago, Naamblar2014 said:

It wasn't a bank mortge.  In essence I was the bank in that I loaned her the money to purchase the property. I therefore held the titles

"I therefore held the titles"

 

But you didn't hold the titles---you left them in the car.

Was the mortgage registered at the land office?  

Naamblar it seems unlikely that she sold the car with the chanut in it, and nothing was said about it. 

It wouldn't take a lawyer but a few minutes to ask at the land office --who's name the land is in, is it mortgage etc. But do you have all the details of the land--proper addresses etc. ? If not it will take a lot longer = more expense.

 

Did you do the Mortgage through a lawyer or just have it detailed at the land office yourself.? 

[BKKBike09]

I'm surprised the Land Office would register a loan from a foreign national on a Chanote. When we bought some land in Prachuab, I had to sign a formal doc at the land office specifically stating that I was not the source of funds for the purchase. Title is of course in wife's name. Different land offices may do things differently of course, but in general they are very sensitive to back-door ownership of land by foreigners (which is what would be the case if you have a lien on the property in your name).

[mahjongguy]

I've always thought that land cannot be used as collateral when borrowing money from a foreigner, even a spouse. In the case of non-payment, how could the foreigner act to take possession of the land?

[Naamblar2014]

1 hour ago, sanuk711 said:

But you didn't hold the titles---you left them in the car.

I know I know.... Stupid

[Naamblar2014]

1 hour ago, mahjongguy said:

I've always thought that land cannot be used as collateral when borrowing money from a foreigner, even a spouse. In the case of non-payment, how could the foreigner act to take possession of the land?

They can act to sell it and recover funds.

[Naamblar2014]

1 hour ago, BKKBike09 said:

I'm surprised the Land Office would register a loan from a foreign national on a Chanote. When we bought some land in Prachuab, I had to sign a formal doc at the land office specifically stating that I was not the source of funds for the purchase. Title is of course in wife's name. Different land offices may do things differently of course, but in general they are very sensitive to back-door ownership of land by foreigners (which is what would be the case if you have a lien on the property in your name).

Actually they suggested it.  My original goal was to register usrfruct.  They weren't keen on that.

 

Might also be the timing.  If you were married before the purchase.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Naamblar2014

[baansgr]

Sold your car, can't ask wife about land...what kind of marriage is this. POA and signed passport land can be sold so go to land office with chanote number and check

[Onerak]

18 hours ago, Naamblar2014 said:

and mortgage documents were in the car. 

Who keeps mortgage documents in the car?

[LivinLOS]

18 hours ago, blackcab said:

You don't really need a lawyer. Just go to the land office with a Thai speaker and your passport and ask for a photocopy of the chanote. You will be given a copy of what the land office has on file, which is the most up to date version.

As hes outside of the country how does he do that in person.. Hence, he needs a authorised representative (usually a lawyer).

[LivinLOS]

18 hours ago, Naamblar2014 said:

That's what worries me!

hes a story.. 

Friend buys house, puts it in his childs name. By law nothing should be possible with that unless its is legally proven to be in the childs interest or the child is old enough.. He keeps the chanote locked up and.. Safe !! Its all secured hes assured.

He goes away for work, GF gets copy chanote.. First she somehow registers a real mortgage registered on the chanote for the max value.. As she has zero idea of how to pay it she then goes to loan sharks and borrows another huge amount, now adding up to maybe 80% of the property value combined, the money is squandered.. She then begins to stress, have the usual thai stress breakdown and her behaviour goes off the rails.. 

He kicks her out... but has no knowledge of any cause at this point, she shacks up with the first foreigner that offers a visa and just runs away to another country.. 

Loan sharks turn up seeking her.. Turn attention to farang and more worryingly young child.. He gets a lawyer who checks land office and unpicks the saga.. 

None of this should be legally possible.. The real mortgage was given to someone not the owner.. The loan sharking is illegal lending back up by threats of violence and abduction to a child.. The land office did the wrong things not according to the book... But hey how does any of that help my buddy ?? 

[LivinLOS]

16 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

I'm surprised the Land Office would register a loan from a foreign national on a Chanote. When we bought some land in Prachuab, I had to sign a formal doc at the land office specifically stating that I was not the source of funds for the purchase. Title is of course in wife's name. Different land offices may do things differently of course, but in general they are very sensitive to back-door ownership of land by foreigners (which is what would be the case if you have a lien on the property in your name).

what you signed was the sin suan tua declaration (her purchase not marital asset) after thats done, you can register a loan tho it can be harder to a wife in some offices (can be a foreign company in that case) but the registration of a lien is a strong protection, in most ways stronger than a usufruct with a wife. 

[Naamblar2014]

2 hours ago, Onerak said:

Who keeps mortgage documents in the car?

Why should I be blamed for anothers deceitful nature and criminal behavior.

[Longwood50]

On 5/1/2022 at 1:00 PM, Naamblar2014 said:

.  I am the party that gave the money like a bank would give the money. In this case I am like the bank

If you are the lender than your name should be recorded on the Chanote and you should have the house book.  With both of those, there is no way someone could sell the property from underneath you.  Also, even if someone wanted to take a second mortgage against the property, they would demand to be put on the Chanote and without the house book I can't see how that would be possible.  

You could do a quick consultation with an attorney but I would make sure it is someone who knows something about Thai Real Estate Law.  My experience with attorneys in general is that they hold themselves out to be experts in all aspects of the law but that is impossible.  

[soi3eddie]

On 5/1/2022 at 5:57 AM, Naamblar2014 said:

I bought land in my wife's name many many years ago. 

Why don't you ask your ever-loving Thai wife (that you don't appear to have seen for 3 years) what the real and true situation is? Your wife bought land with your money is the true case not? Nothing to be ashamed of or embarassed about. I did same in 2004 for 10 Rais with wife (and thankfully profited 2,000% by it in 13 years on divorce but that's another story). Unless you held the chanote and your name was on it (unlikely for land or a mortgage on land) then can't see what recourse you have. Condo ownership is different as that's permitted. Outright 100% land ownership or aquisition by foreigners is not permitted (very few exceptions and with lots of caveats). Let the forum know how you ultimately resolve your problem please. We all like to learn. 

 

 

[soi3eddie]

21 hours ago, Onerak said:

Who keeps mortgage documents in the car?

Very strange. Safe in home, safe deposit or close to person at all times. But not left in a car that's dissapeared. My Bangkok condo chanote is either with me or in my home safe (Thai or UK). NEVER ever left in my car.