Question about UPS

[peterfranks]

I'm installing CCTV cameras, and want to add a UPS to the power supply.

 

My question is now how long will it provide power to my setup.

 

The UPS I consider is 1000va/550w, this one in particular

 

https://zircon.co.th/en/product/hybridlcd_1000va

 

It will feed a switching power supply, which will have a total output of 12V - 15A maximum, normally it will be less as I have 6 cameras which are rated 1A and a XVR which is rated 12v 2A.

 

This is the power supply.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i339466822-s657928263.html?

 

So in case of a power outage, how long will my setup run?

 

Thanks

Edited July 3, 2022 by peterfranks
Edit to adjust the number of cameras to 6

[Crossy]

The UPS probably has 2 x 12V 7.5Ah sealed lead-acid batteries.

 

If we assume worst case on the cameras and XVR we are looking at 10A @ 12V.

 

So you're probably good for 1 to 1.5 hours, the cameras likely take a lot less than the 1A particularly if they have night vision LEDs.

 

BUT. 

 

Why bother with a UPS? There's nothing to stop you floating a 12V deep-cycle or LiFePO4 pattery on the 12V supply (you would have to tweek the power supply up to around 13.8V).

 

You can then choose the battery to match just how long you want to run for.

 

[peterfranks]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

The UPS probably has 2 x 12V 7.5Ah sealed lead-acid batteries.

 

If we assume worst case on the cameras and XVR we are looking at 10A @ 12V.

 

So you're probably good for 1 to 1.5 hours, the cameras likely take a lot less than the 1A particularly if they have night vision LEDs.

 

BUT. 

 

Why bother with a UPS? There's nothing to stop you floating a 12V deep-cycle or LiFePO4 pattery on the 12V supply (you would have to tweek the power supply up to around 13.8V).

 

You can then choose the battery to match just how long you want to run for.

 

There is nothing in the spec about the spec/quantity of the battery, other than that the unit weighs 4.5kg.

 

Would that warrant 2 lead acid batteries.

 

I fancy the lifepo4 battery, but can you elaborate how I would set it up that it automatically switches to battery on power outage?

 

Would it be a cheaper solution as my suggested UPS, which will set me back 1530 baht?

[peterfranks]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Why bother with a UPS? There's nothing to stop you floating a 12V deep-cycle or LiFePO4 pattery on the 12V supply (you would have to tweek the power supply up to around 13.8V).

 

You can then choose the battery to match just how long you want to run for.

Can you please explain how this works?

[OneMoreFarang]

Personally I think the UPS is much easier than any battery solution, especially for people who just want to use it and don't fiddle around with the details. 

[peterfranks]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Personally I think the UPS is much easier than any battery solution, especially for people who just want to use it and don't fiddle around with the details. 

I agree, UPS is fool proof, though I like the idea of a Lifepo4 battery, as I know they can be depleted far more than any lead acid battery.

 

I would even consider replacing the UPS battery with a Lifepo4, but not sure either if that is just easily done.

 

What surprises me is that if you look up the spec of any UPS, they will rarely mention the details about the battery, other than that it's lead acid. They won't even mention 1 or 2.

 

Wonder why that is

[OneMoreFarang]

7 minutes ago, peterfranks said:

I agree, UPS is fool proof, though I like the idea of a Lifepo4 battery, as I know they can be depleted far more than any lead acid battery.

 

I would even consider replacing the UPS battery with a Lifepo4, but not sure either if that is just easily done.

 

What surprises me is that if you look up the spec of any UPS, they will rarely mention the details about the battery, other than that it's lead acid. They won't even mention 1 or 2.

 

Wonder why that is

I would be very careful with lithium batteries.

I know LiPo are more dangerous than LiFe but I guess it's also not a good idea to mess around with LiFe.

IMHO if a device was designed for lead acid batteries, including the charging circuit, it is not a good idea to try any lithium battery with the same circuit. That is asking for trouble.

 

With some UPS you can find information about the (replacement) batteries and in the manual or the manufacturer's website. I.e. here (that was just the first link which came up):

https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/tools/replacement-battery-selector?showAll=true

 

[peterfranks]

I can't find any battery details of the UPS I'm interested in, but going by the 2.5kg weight of the APC battery, and the total weight of 4.5 kg quoted for the Zircon unit, it most likely has only 1 battery.

So would that mean I have to halve the backup time quoted by Crossy, as that was based on 2 batteries?

 

 

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, peterfranks said:

I can't find any battery details of the UPS I'm interested in, but going by the 2.5kg weight of the APC battery, and the total weight of 4.5 kg quoted for the Zircon unit, it most likely has only 1 battery.

So would that mean I have to halve the backup time quoted by Crossy, as that was based on 2 batteries?

 

Yeah, I think you are correct, that unit is physically large (judging by the outlets on the back) for a 500W unit, bet it's mostly air inside.

 

I wouldn't replace the UPS batteries with LiFePO4 (actually I do but ...) and adding a battery to the power supply box you show, whilst not exactly complex, does require a little electrical nouse (need to add a diode). 

 

Just how much autonomy do you actually need for your cameras? It would also be useful to know just how much power the system is really using but during the day and at night (when any IR illuminators will be on).

 

 

[peterfranks]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Yeah, I think you are correct, that unit is physically large (judging by the outlets on the back) for a 500W unit, bet it's mostly air inside.

 

I wouldn't replace the UPS batteries with LiFePO4 (actually I do but ...) and adding a battery to the power supply box you show, whilst not exactly complex, does require a little electrical nouse (need to add a diode). 

 

Just how much autonomy do you actually need for your cameras? It would also be useful to know just how much power the system is really using but during the day and at night (when any IR illuminators will be on).

 

 

I can't measure the correct power usage, since we are in the planning stage, but I just take the ratings for each device, which is 6 x 1A and 1 x 2A.

 

If it stayed on for 30 minutes to an hour would be fine for me, as I assume the power outage would be because intruders cut the power line to take the cameras out. I guess they're not gonna sit outside for an hour waiting for the batteries to be depleted, or will be aware there is a UPS at all.

 

The power supplies with built-in battery are available, though they are limited in capacity. The version linked in the OP is available up to 30A and 18 connections, while the one with battery is 10A and 8 connections maximum.

The one with the battery inside also doesn't seem to have the outputs fused.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i651456770-s1258460586.html?

 

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

adding a battery to the power supply box you show, whilst not exactly complex, does require a little electrical nouse (need to add a diode). 

Can you tell me more about that, as I have a local TV repair shop who fixes everything for me and speaks good English, but he isn't really the sharpest tool in the shed, so I may have to give him exact instructions.

[peterfranks]

@Crossy I found this Lifepo4 pack on Lazada, so if I could add that one to the power supply linked in the OP, that would be ideal.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/g2g-battery-lifepo4-32v-6ah-7cm32cm-screw-plate-i318708875-s6196070358.html?

 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, peterfranks said:

@Crossy I found this Lifepo4 pack on Lazada, so if I could add that one to the power supply linked in the OP, that would be ideal.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/g2g-battery-lifepo4-32v-6ah-7cm32cm-screw-plate-i318708875-s6196070358.html?

 

Sadly it's not that easy, that's a single 3.2V cell, it needs 3 friends and some electronics.

 

I'll have a hunt for something usable inbetween meetings.

[MrJ2U]

15 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Personally I think the UPS is much easier than any battery solution, especially for people who just want to use it and don't fiddle around with the details. 

Just the thought of messing around with electricity can deter many people.  Dangerous. 

[peterfranks]

20 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Sadly it's not that easy, that's a single 3.2V cell, it needs 3 friends and some electronics.

 

I'll have a hunt for something usable inbetween meetings.

I can't read Thai, but thought that meant 3 cell.

 

Edit: it means 3A discharge current, which would not be enough anyway, as I need about 8A.

 Would the power supply with built-in battery suffice for my needs, let's say 30 minutes to an hour?

 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by peterfranks

[OneMoreFarang]

18 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

Just the thought of messing around with electricity can deter many people.  Dangerous. 

It should deter many people because it can be deadly.

Many of us get used to the fact that never anything bad happened - until now...

[MrJ2U]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

until now...

What happened?

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

9 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

What happened?

Nothing seriously ever happened to me with electricity.

But I remember when I was a teenager and I played around with this and that and all was fine. Until the moment when I touched the wrong contacts together at the same time. I was just "shocked" and nothing happened. But it was a good reminder that things can go wrong.

I.e. at that time I touched 220C with two fingers from the same hand. So the current flowed only between those two fingers within the same hand. If I would have touched one contact with one hand and the other contact with the other hand then the current would have flown through my body, and there is the heart between the two arms ... 

[MrJ2U]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Nothing seriously ever happened to me with electricity.

But I remember when I was a teenager and I played around with this and that and all was fine. Until the moment when I touched the wrong contacts together at the same time. I was just "shocked" and nothing happened. But it was a good reminder that things can go wrong.

I.e. at that time I touched 220C with two fingers from the same hand. So the current flowed only between those two fingers within the same hand. If I would have touched one contact with one hand and the other contact with the other hand then the current would have flown through my body, and there is the heart between the two arms ... 

I need to some electrical work at home but unlike plumbing I feel intimidated.

 

Luckily theres some good YouTube videos.

 

If you can do some of your own electrical, plumbing, or auto repair your able to save a chunk of change! 

[dddave]

24 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

I need to some electrical work at home but unlike plumbing I feel intimidated.

 

Luckily theres some good YouTube videos.

 

If you can do some of your own electrical, plumbing, or auto repair your able to save a chunk of change! 

Must have in any modern toolbox is a simple, pen sized electrical field detector that will tell the user whether a wire or fixture is "live" or not.

Usually around B200-300.

Saved me a lot of surprises when renovating an old house with remnants of nob & tube wiring.

[peterfranks]

8 hours ago, peterfranks said:

8 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Sadly it's not that easy, that's a single 3.2V cell, it needs 3 friends and some electronics.

 

I'll have a hunt for something usable inbetween meetings.

I can't read Thai, but thought that meant 3 cell.

 

Edit: it means 3A discharge current, which would not be enough anyway, as I need about 8A.

 Would the power supply with built-in battery suffice for my needs, let's say 30 minutes to an hour?

 

@Crossy Any update yet, as I really need to order the power supply for installing end of this week.

 

If you think this one will be sufficient for my needs, I will order it, otherwise I order the one in the OP and the UPS. Unless you have a better idea.

 

Thanks

 

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i651456770-s1258460586.html?

 

 

[MrJ2U]

5 hours ago, dddave said:

Must have in any modern toolbox is a simple, pen sized electrical field detector that will tell the user whether a wire or fixture is "live" or not.

Usually around B200-300.

Saved me a lot of surprises when renovating an old house with remnants of nob & tube wiring.

I'll need to order another one.

 

First one from Lazada doesn't work. 

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, peterfranks said:

@Crossy Any update yet, as I really need to order the power supply for installing end of this week.

 

If you think this one will be sufficient for my needs, I will order it, otherwise I order the one in the OP and the UPS. Unless you have a better idea.

 

Thanks

 

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i651456770-s1258460586.html?

 

That one should do the trick for 8 cameras plus the XVR and already has a battery pack which should be good for 30-45 minutes.

 

When the lead-acid battery fails there are drop-in LiFePO4 versions in the same form factor.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

20 hours ago, peterfranks said:

I can't read Thai, but thought that meant 3 cell.

 

Edit: it means 3A discharge current, which would not be enough anyway, as I need about 8A.

 Would the power supply with built-in battery suffice for my needs, let's say 30 minutes to an hour?

 

 

A UPS with a built in battery certainly can be enough for your needs. 
8A for 30 minutes is distinctly large and, if good quality, not cheap.

there are 2 well known brands with enough reputation that they are worthwhile buying 

APC and CyberPower.
 

My CyberPower UPS failed after 5 months, CyberPower sent a repair technician who diagnosed dead batteries and replaced them FOC. They have a 2 year on site guarantee.

 

I had bought a cheap UPS previously that failed so was actually expensive not cheap.

 

also don’t forget that the UPS needs to be capable of double the reserve that you are using it for. All batteries dislike being run too low and will die prematurely 

Edited July 4, 2022 by sometimewoodworker

[peterfranks]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

also don’t forget that the UPS needs to be capable of double the reserve that you are using it for. All batteries dislike being run too low and will die prematurely 

Yes, I am aware of that, but with the power lately going off here almost weekly for a few hours, I don't think that, unless one want to spend big bucks, there is a UPS which can handle that.

 

With a PC you can switch it off when power goes off, with cameras that will not be possible. And that is also why I would fancy to have a Lifepo4 battery, as they can be depleted 100% without being damaged.

 

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

That one should do the trick for 8 cameras plus the XVR and already has a battery pack which should be good for 30-45 minutes.

 

When the lead-acid battery fails there are drop-in LiFePO4 versions in the same form factor.

I have now found the same power supply with built-in UPS, but without the battery included. So could you please point me to a suitable Lifepo4 pack, and explain what modification my TV repair man has to do, to make it compatible with such battery pack?

[Crossy]

8 minutes ago, peterfranks said:

I have now found the same power supply with built-in UPS, but without the battery included. So could you please point me to a suitable Lifepo4 pack, and explain what modification my TV repair man has to do, to make it compatible with such battery pack?

 

If the unit you have found is already "battery-ready" then you should be able to drop in a LiFePO4 directly. Assuming it uses the "normal" 150x94x65mm form-factor there are many suitable units on Lazada such as https://www.lazada.co.th/products/lifepo4-12v-10ah-ups-i356742471-s698842447.html

 

[peterfranks]

34 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

If the unit you have found is already "battery-ready" then you should be able to drop in a LiFePO4 directly. Assuming it uses the "normal" 150x94x65mm form-factor there are many suitable units on Lazada such as https://www.lazada.co.th/products/lifepo4-12v-10ah-ups-i356742471-s698842447.html

 

Thanks.

 

I looked up the unit again, and now notice that it's 5A only, so will have to do with the one with battery included, till the battery fails.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/dc-12v5a-ac-110-240v-ups-i3107591828-s11503209879.html?

 

Can I install a BMS on a lead acid battery, to prevent it being deep discharged, or is that likely already built-in with the unit?

[Crossy]

33 minutes ago, peterfranks said:

Can I install a BMS on a lead acid battery, to prevent it being deep discharged, or is that likely already built-in with the unit?

 

In these kind of units there's usually little to no protection for the battery, it's not intended to go deep discharge regularly so there's no serious degradation of the battery it just runs until the cameras stop on low voltage.

 

Unlike something like a bait-boat which regularly runs down the pack and should have suitable discharge protection.

[peterfranks]

13 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

In these kind of units there's usually little to no protection for the battery, it's not intended to go deep discharge regularly so there's no serious degradation of the battery it just runs until the cameras stop on low voltage.

 

Unlike something like a bait-boat which regularly runs down the pack and should have suitable discharge protection.

Sorry to bother you again.

 

Am I correct, that this the part I need to add UPS function to the power supply linked in the OP?

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/b0017-automatic-switching-module-dc-5v-48v-10a-power-failure-automatic-ups-cut-off-5v-48v-i2471707408.html?

 

So if I add this, will it switch to battery when power failure, and will it charge the Lifepo4 battery that you provided a link for?

 

I see 10A mentioned in the listing. Does that mean my power supply can be maximum 10A output?

[peterfranks]

Hmm, things seem to get better the more time I spend on Lazada, or do I misunderstand something?

 

If I order this thingy, I don't need a power supply, as I can feed the cameras directly from the UPS, and it should last at least an hour with my setup. Is that correct?

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/dc-ups-zircon-zmn-45-cctv-wifi-router-i-8-i1470910579.html?

 

Edit: I should have read further before posting, as it seems to output only 2A, so i wonder how they can talk about 4 cameras and a dvr in the spec, as that would exceed 2A power usage by far.

Edited July 5, 2022 by peterfranks

[Crossy]

7 hours ago, peterfranks said:

Sorry to bother you again.

 

Am I correct, that this the part I need to add UPS function to the power supply linked in the OP?

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/b0017-automatic-switching-module-dc-5v-48v-10a-power-failure-automatic-ups-cut-off-5v-48v-i2471707408.html?

 

So if I add this, will it switch to battery when power failure, and will it charge the Lifepo4 battery that you provided a link for?

 

I see 10A mentioned in the listing. Does that mean my power supply can be maximum 10A output?

 

That little module would do the switch over very nicely, but yes, it's limited to a 10A power supply due to the relay and probably the charging diode.