1 hour ago, RayC said:

So how long will we have to wait for these perceived economic benefits? 10 years? 20? 30? Or maybe, these benefits simply do not exist.

 

In the meantime, even a UK government body (OBR) estimates that Brexit has - and will continue to have - negative effects (on productivity).

 

If you do decide to reply, it would be good if it contained a coherent counter argument.

Come on, Ray. That's far too big of an ask....

11 minutes ago, baboon said:

Come on, Ray. That's far too big of an ask....

I totally agree.....????

32 minutes ago, transam said:

What's wrong with a prediction,  you would rather wait till it happens, then can do nothing about it, sitting on the fence, as Labour does......?   ????

 

Wait till what happens? That the UK will never rejoin the EU? How exactly does a non event happen? How does a country prepare for that? Is there some irreversible switch the UK can throw that will rule out such an eventuality?

1 hour ago, transam said:

Not interested in estimates on this and that

Of course we can't predict the future with certainty, but how can a rational decision be reached on whether a policy is desirable unless an estimate of its' effects are taken into account? 

 

Did you think Brexit was a good idea because you stuck your finger in the air and found that the wind was blowing from the East/ West/ North/ South (delete as appropriate) and that was proof enough?

 

1 hour ago, transam said:

, the UK will not be part of the future  United States of Germany, fact......????

Germany is a federal republic comprising of states with a fair amount of autonomy, so I suppose you could informally label this nation, The United States of Germany?

 

However, I doubt that it what you meant? By stating that the UK will not be subsumed into a 'Greater' Germany, I assume that you are suggesting that nations such as France, Italy, etc will?

 

Any evidence to support this hypothesis? No, thought not.

9 minutes ago, transam said:

I totally agree.....????

You agree that it's too big an ask of you to present a coherent argument?

 

Fair play to you. That's a big admission ????

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Wait till what happens? That the UK will never rejoin the EU? How exactly does a non event happen? How does a country prepare for that? Is there some irreversible switch the UK can throw that will rule out such an eventuality?

Any event that is not good for the UK should be kept in sight, I quoted the U.S. of G.

If in the future the populace votes to go down that rout, so be it, no on/off switch, a peoples vote, as was Brexit, remember, a peoples vote....????...

4 minutes ago, RayC said:

Of course we can't predict the future with certainty, but how can a rational decision be reached on whether a policy is desirable unless an estimate of its' effects are taken into account? 

 

Did you think Brexit was a good idea because you stuck your finger in the air and found that the wind was blowing from the East/ West/ North/ South (delete as appropriate) and that was proof enough?

 

Germany is a federal republic comprising of states with a fair amount of autonomy, so I suppose you could informally label this nation, The United States of Germany?

 

However, I doubt that it what you meant? By stating that the UK will not be subsumed into a 'Greater' Germany, I assume that you are suggesting that nations such as France, Italy, etc will?

 

Any evidence to support this hypothesis? No, thought not.

Who controls the EU, guess who were the BIG talkers during Brexit........?  ????

28 minutes ago, transam said:

Any event that is not good for the UK should be kept in sight, I quoted the U.S. of G.

If in the future the populace votes to go down that rout, so be it, no on/off switch, a peoples vote, as was Brexit, remember, a peoples vote....????...

I really don't understand what point(s) you are trying to make? The UK government/ population should keep abreast of events that are happening in the world? I imagine that (almost) all posters - irrespective of their political views - could agree with that.

 

That all major policy decisions should be made by referendum? IMO more debatable.

30 minutes ago, transam said:

Who controls the EU, guess who were the BIG talkers during Brexit........?  ????

To the extent that any one entity controls the EU, I'd suggest that it was the Council.

 

The amount of influence an individual nation has within the EU is difficult to quantify and depends on a number of factors (policy area, national importance, etc), but there is clearly a relationship with the size of the individual nation's economy. France and Germany are clearly more influential within the EU than Cyprus and Malta. However, it's not a perfect indicator. For example, I'd argue that the Netherlands is more influential - especially since the UK left - than the size of its' economy might suggest.

45 minutes ago, transam said:

Any event that is not good for the UK should be kept in sight, I quoted the U.S. of G.

If in the future the populace votes to go down that rout, so be it, no on/off switch, a peoples vote, as was Brexit, remember, a peoples vote....????...

But you predicted it wasn't going to happen. You called that a fact. What does the word "fact' mean to you?

15 hours ago, placeholder said:

But you predicted it wasn't going to happen. You called that a fact. What does the word "fact' mean to you?

The fact is, the UK will not be part of the future United States of Germany, meaning, the big boy Germany will be pulling the EU strings, I have no doubt about that, which is my U.S. of G.....

Unless a future UK gov changes the people's vote, the UK will not be part of it. ????

1 hour ago, transam said:

The fact is, the UK will not be part of the future United States of Germany, meaning, the big boy Germany will be pulling the EU strings, I have no doubt about that, which is my U.S. of G.....

Unless a future UK gov changes the people's vote, the UK will not be part of it. ????

Each government is elected by ‘the people’s vote’.

 

The people who voted for Brexit are predominantly old, they aren’t going to be around much longer, indeed many have already wandered off stage.

 

Add buyer’s remorse  and the ever more difficult job of hiding the negative impacts of Brexit.

 

Oh and before the negations start all over again.

 

 

Never say never.

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 20223 yr by Chomper Higgot

The leadership debates are interesting, not just because they expose how dreadful the Tory options are but more so because they are laying bare the deep divisions in the Tory Party.

 

It’s hard to argue that one Tory, backed by the hard right of the party accusing a rival candidate of socialism bodes well for party unity.

 

And all the while easy promises of easy money and ‘Jam Tomorrow’.

 

Whoever the Tories choose, these fundamental differences will remain and clearly whoever wins there is no squaring the fiscal runaround being presented by a party that got the nation in the mess it it is in.

 

What a mess?!

 

Edited July 18, 20223 yr by Chomper Higgot

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

The leadership debates are interesting, not just because they expose how dreadful the Tory options are but more so because they are laying bare the deep divisions in the Tory Party.

 

It’s hard to argue that one Tory, backed by the hard right of the party accusing a rival candidate of socialism bodes well for party unity.

 

And all the while easy promises of easy money and ‘Jam Tomorrow’.

 

Whoever the Tories choose, these fundamental differences will remain and clearly whoever wins there is no squaring then fiscal runaround being presented by a party that got the nation in the mess it it is in.

 

What a mess?!

You are right and that assessment is echoed by very many especially in the UK. In fact since the Tories came to power and adopted those earlier austerity measures ( well austerity for most but not their rich pals and backers of course), the purchasing power of the pound for the average family has steadily declined seriously further impacted of course since the double whammy of Brexit and Covid. Goodness knows where they go from here irrespective of who becomes the PM as in two years time with this crowd they look like they are in for an electoral whitewash from Labour and frankly I don't hold out much hope that they can do any better either.

Poor old UK certainly looks like heading towards the ignominy of achieving the "poor man of Europe" status within the next 20 years unless something drastically changes.

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Each government is elected by ‘the people’s vote’.

 

The people who voted for Brexit are predominantly old, they aren’t going to be around much longer, indeed many have already wandered off stage.

 

Add buyer’s remorse  and the ever more difficult job of hiding the negative impacts of Brexit.

 

Oh and before the negations start all over again.

 

 

Never say never.

 

 

 

Classic CH.............Very funny, the "old" card............????

I am loving these debates, they are an absolute disaster for the tories.
 

My favourite moment was when sunak called truss a socialist-I can just imagine the tories being led by red liz, I mean she even wore the red dress.
 

I really hope she wins. She would be a gift to the opposition. 
 

16 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I am loving these debates, they are an absolute disaster for the tories.
 

My favourite moment was when sunak called truss a socialist-I can just imagine the tories being led by red liz, I mean she even wore the red dress.
 

I really hope she wins. She would be a gift to the opposition. 
 

What opposition....?    ????

4 minutes ago, transam said:

What opposition....?    ????

The ones who are gearing up for the next election…go liz. 

8 minutes ago, transam said:

What opposition....?    ????

Ya know, the opposition that took a couple of seats from the Conservatives in the latest by-election.

And the opposition that proved disastrous for Tories in local elections.

Boris Johnson should be very worried about what 2022 local council results mean for the next general election

What history shows
Historically, there has been a very strong relationship between the number of Conservative councillors elected and the number of Conservative MPs elected to the House of Commons two years later. For the 12 general elections since February 1974, the correlation between the two is very strong (0.84).

https://theconversation.com/boris-johnson-should-be-very-worried-about-what-2022-local-council-results-mean-for-the-next-general-election-182788

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Ya know, the opposition that took a couple of seats from the Conservatives in the latest by-election.

And the opposition that proved disastrous for Tories in local elections.

Boris Johnson should be very worried about what 2022 local council results mean for the next general election

What history shows
Historically, there has been a very strong relationship between the number of Conservative councillors elected and the number of Conservative MPs elected to the House of Commons two years later. For the 12 general elections since February 1974, the correlation between the two is very strong (0.84).

https://theconversation.com/boris-johnson-should-be-very-worried-about-what-2022-local-council-results-mean-for-the-next-general-election-182788

Local elections, about who empties the bins....Let's wait for General election time, eh.

????

1 hour ago, transam said:

Local elections, about who empties the bins....Let's wait for General election time, eh.

????

In a sense I agree with you, the last two bi-elections were certainly about getting rid of the trash.

 

They put an end to Johnson’s premiership and gave us the entertainment of the Tory leadership knife fight.

 

 

Edited July 18, 20223 yr by Chomper Higgot

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

In a sense I agree with you, the last two bi-elections were certainly about getting rid of the trash.

 

They put an end to Johnson’s premiership and gave us the entertainment of the Tory leadership knife fight.

 

 

And it's nice to know that some of us appreciate that they were indeed bi-elections not local elections as some others understood incorrectly.

Let the best conservative non-liberal, non-socialist, non-globalist man or woman win. Good luck to the British citizens. So glad you voted for Brexit.

7 minutes ago, Screaming said:

Let the best conservative non-liberal, non-socialist, non-globalist man or woman win. Good luck to the British citizens. So glad you voted for Brexit.

At least the Europeans can leave the Belgians alone now and simply take the p*ss out of the British.  Boris and less then half the UK electorate (37%) can be held responsible for that theatre of farce.

Edited July 18, 20223 yr by Excel

39 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

In a sense I agree with you, the last two bi-elections were certainly about getting rid of the trash.

 

They put an end to Johnson’s premiership and gave us the entertainment of the Tory leadership knife fight.

 

 

Yes, but when the leadership election is over and the new leader is democratically elected, all the candidates who participated will accept the result and move on giving the new leader their full support for the good of the nation.    They will not spend the next several years having temper tantrums as the result did not go their way, unlike most Labour and Remain voters.   

5 minutes ago, James105 said:

Yes, but when the leadership election is over and the new leader is democratically elected, all the candidates who participated will accept the result and move on giving the new leader their full support for the good of the nation.    They will not spend the next several years having temper tantrums as the result did not go their way, unlike most Labour and Remain voters.   

I doubt that Theresa May would agree with you.

34 minutes ago, Excel said:

At least the Europeans can leave the Belgians alone now and simply take the p*ss out of the British.  Boris and less then half the UK electorate (37%) can be held responsible for that theatre of farce.

I don't think all Europeans are into taking the p_ss out of a Nation that paid dearly coming to their aid. ..????

13 minutes ago, James105 said:

Yes, but when the leadership election is over and the new leader is democratically elected, all the candidates who participated will accept the result and move on giving the new leader their full support for the good of the nation.    They will not spend the next several years having temper tantrums as the result did not go their way, unlike most Labour and Remain voters.   

Which brings us back to the clearly displayed splits within the Tory Party.

 

 

2 hours ago, transam said:

Local elections, about who empties the bins....Let's wait for General election time, eh.

????

As I pointed out, and as you ignored, there is a strong correlation between the 2. And if the issue was solely about local matters, why the huge shift? Did bin collection suddenly become a liability for Torries. Clearly, you've got nothing.

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

As I pointed out, and as you ignored, there is a strong correlation between the 2. And if the issue was solely about local matters, why the huge shift? Did bin collection suddenly become a liability for Torries. Clearly, you've got nothing.

I haven't ignored anything, not even you, but you obviously don't know the difference between the two voting criteria, the goals of the vote. 

But, you crack on chap....????