By raft and on foot, migrants cross Rio Grande from Mexico to Texas

placeholder · July 23, 2022

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You need to incentivize the lazy to get off their collective bums and get productive. Cut unemployment benefits and welfare for healthy singles, for example. Pay subsidies to farms that employ legal residents with the savings. Allow people to work and keep part of their benefits.

I think the people who want illegal immigation stopped DO want to improve the system. But they want the border to be secured first. No point in changing laws for guest workers if illegals are still pouring over at the rate of over 100,000 people per month. Fix the border, then fix the outdated immigration laws.

Thanks for exposing your right wing agenda. I got news for you. Years ago, during the Clinton adiministration welfare payments were slashed. And during Covid some states prematurely cut benefits out of the belief that workers would go back to work. That failed big time.

And your use of the labor force participation rate re unemployment makes no sense. As I pointed out earlier it includes most people aged 16 or older except those in the military, in prisons, in nursing homes and mental hospitals. So as the population ages the labor force participation rate is going to decline. The unemployment rate is nearly at a record low and employers are complaining that they can't find workers.

And as for stopping illegal immigration first. If immigrants stop being able to find jobs they'll stop coming. So why the emphasis on the border? Because it distracts from this fact and is a useful emotional issue for the right. As I've pointed out before, make hiring immigrants a felony, and enforce that law, and illegal immigration will drastically decline. So why do you want to put this second instead of first?

Slip · July 23, 2022

35 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Thanks for exposing your right wing agenda. I got news for you. Years ago, during the Clinton adiministration welfare payments were slashed. And during Covid some states prematurely cut benefits out of the belief that workers would go back to work. That failed big time.

And your use of the labor force participation rate re unemployment makes no sense. As I pointed out earlier it includes most people aged 16 or older except those in the military, in prisons, in nursing homes and mental hospitals. So as the population ages the labor force participation rate is going to decline. The unemployment rate is nearly at a record low and employers are complaining that they can't find workers.

And as for stopping illegal immigration first. If immigrants stop being able to find jobs they'll stop coming. So why the emphasis on the border? Because it distracts from this fact and is a useful emotional issue for the right. As I've pointed out before, make hiring immigrants a felony, and enforce that law, and illegal immigration will drastically decline. So why do you want to put this second instead of first?

Yeah, who would have thought? Apparently, the real answer to illegal immigration is to cut benefits to citizens and pay the money to corporations. Hilarious.

EVENKEEL · July 23, 2022

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

Clearly you have answer for the facts I've raised and try to make it personal instead. You have no answer for whether or not the economy can absorb these immigrants. You have no answer for the fact the immigration is a 2 way street. Illegal immigrants come and go.

Well, maybe you should ask NYC and DC what they think.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/big-city-democrats-beg-biden-for-help-amid-mass-migrant-releases

placeholder · July 23, 2022

15 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

So let's say one day a slaughterhouse employing 150 illegals gets busted and the employer gets charged with a felony. This means you also believe all 150 illegals should be arrested on the spot and deported.

Why would it mean that? How does that follow?

EVENKEEL · July 24, 2022

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

Why would it mean that? How does that follow?

Because if you penalize the employer, the illegal employee must also suffer the consequences, being deported.

placeholder · July 24, 2022

Just now, EVENKEEL said:

Because if you penalize the employer, the illegal employee must also suffer the consequences, being deported.

Actually not. If the law is enforced those employees will find it difficult to get another job, and to use the famous or infamous phrase of Mitt Romney will "self-deport".

heybruce · July 24, 2022

On 7/22/2022 at 8:01 PM, placeholder said:

So what's stopping all those ferocious politicians advocating walls and increased deportations from passing laws to make hiring illegals a felony?

The people who do the hiring also vote and hire lobbyists. That makes them untouchable in America's current political system.

Gov. DeSantis of Florida knows how its done: Lots of grandstanding against immigrants, pass a law requiring verification of legal status, then don't enforce the law. https://www.immigrationreform.com/2021/06/17/florida-everify-law-proves-bad-immigrationreform-com/

heybruce · July 24, 2022

On 7/22/2022 at 8:49 PM, EVENKEEL said:

How can any sane individual think these numbers are sustainable and not a threat.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/16/migrant-encounters-at-us-border-hit-another-high-in-may/

What is the threat? It's not like these immigrants are storming the Capitol.

heybruce · July 24, 2022

On 7/22/2022 at 10:24 PM, Hanaguma said:

Check the labor participation rate. There are plenty of people of productive age who are not working. OR, start a better visa/guest worker program. Process people in their home countries, vet them, and hook them up with reputable employers. No need for millions to rush the border.

I'm in favor of greatly expanding legal immigration for all those willing to work, from PhD's in the STEM fields to farm laborers. There are a lot of employers in the US who would like that as well.

Unfortunately the very subject of immigration has become so toxic that I don't know of any elected official pushing for such a sensible policy.

heybruce · July 24, 2022

On 7/22/2022 at 11:30 PM, Hanaguma said:

You need to incentivize the lazy to get off their collective bums and get productive. Cut unemployment benefits and welfare for healthy singles, for example. Pay subsidies to farms that employ legal residents with the savings. Allow people to work and keep part of their benefits.

I think the people who want illegal immigation stopped DO want to improve the system. But they want the border to be secured first. No point in changing laws for guest workers if illegals are still pouring over at the rate of over 100,000 people per month. Fix the border, then fix the outdated immigration laws.

Whenever there is demand on one side of the border and supply on the other, the supply will cross to meet the demand.

Aggressively prosecute those who hire illegal immigrants and the jobs that are attracting the immigrants will be eliminated.

Hanaguma · July 24, 2022

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

Whenever there is demand on one side of the border and supply on the other, the supply will cross to meet the demand.

Aggressively prosecute those who hire illegal immigrants and the jobs that are attracting the immigrants will be eliminated.

But you have to do both- you have to aggressively prosecute the illegal workers too. They KNOW they are breaking US law to enter the country, but they don't care. Even if/when they are caught, there is no punishment. Too many wrists being slapped on both sides.

Plus, make it hard/impossible to cross the border. Take data from those who cross illegally (DNA, fingerprint, etc) and put them into a "do not allow entry" database.

Again, the people actually getting hurt are legal residents and citizens. They are being priced out of the labour market by illegals who work cheap. Eliminate the artificial downward pressure on wages caused by illegal immigrants and soon the jobs will be filled.

heybruce · July 24, 2022

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

But you have to do both- you have to aggressively prosecute the illegal workers too. They KNOW they are breaking US law to enter the country, but they don't care. Even if/when they are caught, there is no punishment. Too many wrists being slapped on both sides.

Plus, make it hard/impossible to cross the border. Take data from those who cross illegally (DNA, fingerprint, etc) and put them into a "do not allow entry" database.

Again, the people actually getting hurt are legal residents and citizens. They are being priced out of the labour market by illegals who work cheap. Eliminate the artificial downward pressure on wages caused by illegal immigrants and soon the jobs will be filled.

The government isn't doing both. Neither Republican or Democratic elected officials are making any kind of serious effort to penalize businesses that hire illegal immigrants. For that reason it's simply good business to continue using them.

Locking up people for illegally entering the country is expensive. The US spends $80 billion a year to lock up 2.3 million prisoners, or almost $35,000 per prisoner per year. Adding another one million illegals will add another $35 billion to the US budget. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/12/17/the-hidden-cost-of-incarceration

Of course if those who are caught are deported they have little to lose by attempting to re-enter the country. And its impossible to close thousands of miles of border.

Heavy penalties imposed on businesses that hire illegal immigrants could help pay for the cost of enforcing immigration laws, but that would upset business people who vote and hire lobbyists, so that's not going to happen.

Obviously the cost effective approach is to penalize the businesses. The fact that the government isn't seriously considering doing this, and wasn't under Trump, shows that elected officials don't really think the problem is serious.

But immigrant bashing makes for great political theater. So we get things like DeSantis's immigrant status law that doesn't get enforced--great theater and no unhappy businesses.

Edited July 24, 2022 by heybruce

Hanaguma · July 24, 2022

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

The government isn't doing both. Neither Republican or Democratic elected officials are making any kind of serious effort to penalize businesses that hire illegal immigrants. For that reason it's simply good business to continue using them.

Locking up people for illegally entering the country is expensive. The US spends $80 billion a year to lock up 2.3 million prisoners, or almost $35,000 per prisoner per year. Adding another one million illegals will add another $35 billion to the US budget. However if those who are caught are deported they have little to lose by attempting to re-enter the country.

Heavy penalties imposed on businesses that hire illegal immigrants could help pay for the cost of enforcing immigration laws, but that would upset business people who vote and hire lobbyists, so that's not going to happen.

Obviously the cost effective approach is to penalize the businesses. The fact that the government isn't seriously considering doing this, and wasn't under Trump, shows that elected officials don't really think the problem is serious.

But immigrant bashing makes for great political theater. So we get things like DeSantis's immigrant status law that doesn't get enforced--great theater and no unhappy businesses.

No immigrant bashing here- I am an immigrant myself, as was my wife when we lived in Canada. I am not saying to put illegals into prisons. Just man the border effectively and repel them, with force if necessary. Those that are caught are put on planes and sent back where they came from. If they are caught entering the country again, then prison camps. No need for guarding and services like regular prisons. Just tents and rations. Then deportation.

EVENKEEL · July 24, 2022

19 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The government isn't doing both. Neither Republican or Democratic elected officials are making any kind of serious effort to penalize businesses that hire illegal immigrants. For that reason it's simply good business to continue using them.

Locking up people for illegally entering the country is expensive. The US spends $80 billion a year to lock up 2.3 million prisoners, or almost $35,000 per prisoner per year. Adding another one million illegals will add another $35 billion to the US budget. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/12/17/the-hidden-cost-of-incarceration

Of course if those who are caught are deported they have little to lose by attempting to re-enter the country. And its impossible to close thousands of miles of border.

Heavy penalties imposed on businesses that hire illegal immigrants could help pay for the cost of enforcing immigration laws, but that would upset business people who vote and hire lobbyists, so that's not going to happen.

Obviously the cost effective approach is to penalize the businesses. The fact that the government isn't seriously considering doing this, and wasn't under Trump, shows that elected officials don't really think the problem is serious.

But immigrant bashing makes for great political theater. So we get things like DeSantis's immigrant status law that doesn't get enforced--great theater and no unhappy businesses.

To say Trump's methods on immigration didn't work is a lie. Below links also shows Obama's progress.

Now impress us with biden's progress.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massive-ice-raids-sweep-680-undocumented-immigrants-across-mississippi-n1040176

https://www.usnews.com/news/data-mine/articles/2018-03-13/fewer-crossing-border-fewer-deported-immigration-under-trump

Iamfalang · July 24, 2022

On 7/23/2022 at 10:30 AM, Hanaguma said:

You need to incentivize the lazy to get off their collective bums and get productive. Cut unemployment benefits and welfare for healthy singles, for example.

How do you define lazy? What if they have a disease, mental issues, handicapped, other health problems, transportation limited, etc..... This blanket statement is simply to hateful to humans. Cut benefits and welfare? Again this callous insensitive hatred is not helping anyone.

It's like me saying kick out all expats if they can't run a marathon. Unhealthy lazy expats will ruin the heath care system, leech off the strong, suck the economy, destroy the future, drain funds, etc...... I can run a marathon, it's easy for me to say. You can't, not my problem. You suffer because I make the rules. It's the same thing, and it's not the best way to go about solving anything.

the plan is always to have the common man attack the common man........I won't fall for that

Hanaguma · July 24, 2022

25 minutes ago, Iamfalang said:

How do you define lazy? What if they have a disease, mental issues, handicapped, other health problems, transportation limited, etc..... This blanket statement is simply to hateful to humans. Cut benefits and welfare? Again this callous insensitive hatred is not helping anyone.

It's like me saying kick out all expats if they can't run a marathon. Unhealthy lazy expats will ruin the heath care system, leech off the strong, suck the economy, destroy the future, drain funds, etc...... I can run a marathon, it's easy for me to say. You can't, not my problem. You suffer because I make the rules. It's the same thing, and it's not the best way to go about solving anything.

the plan is always to have the common man attack the common man........I won't fall for that

"The lazy" does not include any of those categories. People who are physically and mentally capable of being productive, but choose not to.

Credo · July 24, 2022

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

To say Trump's methods on immigration didn't work is a lie. Below links also shows Obama's progress.

Now impress us with biden's progress.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massive-ice-raids-sweep-680-undocumented-immigrants-across-mississippi-n1040176

https://www.usnews.com/news/data-mine/articles/2018-03-13/fewer-crossing-border-fewer-deported-immigration-under-trump

And this is from your second link:

Yet, despite his hard-line rhetoric, Trump has still deported fewer immigrants than President Barack Obama did in each of the early years of his term.

Like most of what Trump, there was more noise than results.

KanchanaburiGuy · July 24, 2022

Man, I must say, reading through this thread from the beginning......... has been enough to make me dizzy!

With all due respect to all who have contributed, I don't know that I've ever seen a thread with so many poorly thought-out positions and viewpoints!

Seriously, if I had responded to each post where I found myself saying, "Wait, wait, wait! It's not that simple!" I'd've probably tacked on 15 or 20 consecutive posts to the thread!

[I'll assume y'all are saying "Thank you for NOT doing that!" and move on!]

--------------

Now, because it's impractical to address ALL the complex issues that are in desperate need of clarification here, let me give just a few broad brushstrokes to consider.......

----> If we deported all the "illegals" in the United States......... supposedly about 11 million of them........... it would collapse the U.S. economy, and maybe take the rest of the world with it. (Like the real estate crisis of 2007 did, in 2008 & 2009)

Just imagine: 3 to 4 million housing units suddenly being vacated. No mortgage payments being made; no rents being paid. Millions of additional vacancies now competing for buyers and renters, driving down both prices and values.

Just imagine stores and restaurants suddenly having 11 million fewer customers to sell to.

Just imagine the cutbacks in employees and services at schools and hospitals---hospitals closing and schools closing---because there would be a lot fewer people who need what they do.

Just imagine how many layoffs of "Americans" would occur on the production side of things.......... because there are 11 million fewer people around to buy the level of goods they are already geared up to produce. (Imagine.......... 11 million people eating 25 million meals per day! If you're a farmer, a rancher, a meat packer, a canner, a trucker, a packager, et cetera, you may find yourself in deep doo doo! And that's just FOOD!)

And on and on............

-----> Then we have to ask ourselves some very, VERY serious questions about compassion! Are we compassionate people....... or tough-minded, cold-hearted people?

But before you jump to your automatic ego-boosting "Of course we are compassionate!"......... ask yourself.........

Does your compassion have a Nationality? Are you prepared to make decisions "to protect your own".......... (meaning Americans, of course!)........... even while knowing that turning away those people who came here to build a better life for themselves....... (either here or in their home country!).......... might be forced to return to horrendous, dangerous, and/or desperate situations?

I mean, is it really compassion........

if your compassion only extends to "your own".......... instead of being extended to those who are the most in need......... even if they happen to be the "wrong" Nationality?

Can we really call ourselves compassionate people.......... if our compassion stops at the border? "Sorry, you're from the wrong side of the border, so no compassion for you!"

Of course, laws are laws, and laws are important.

But haven't we gotten smarter over time and learned that if laws KEEP people in a desperate situation.......... (violence, starvation, poor education, oppression, et cetera)....... or force them to RETURN to a desperate situation......... that maybe those laws need some serious reexamining?

-----> And then of course there's MONEY.

Personally, I find it useful to think of money as being....... One Big Ol' Stack of Cash!

Want to do this over here? Take some off your stack of money. Want to do that over there? Take some off your stack of money. Why do I find this helpful? Because if you keep taking more and more off the stack.......... eventually that stack disappears!

So, if you suddenly start thinking of all kinds of NEW things that take money........... you're gonna have to figure out what you're NOT going to spend money on.......... because there's only ONE stack of money!

Want to raise the minimum wage? That takes money. Want to give illegal aliens healthcare? That takes money. Want to fine companies for hiring illegal aliens? That takes money (from the company or individual to pay, and for government to enforce). Want to stop more people from crossing the border? That takes money. Need to process asylum seekers? That takes money. Need attorneys and judges to process deportations? That takes money. Need to detain and deport illegal aliens? That takes money. Need to round up and transport 11 million illegal aliens from all over the country? That takes money!

And where does all this NEW money come from?

Well, we can print it. But printing it devalues it. So that winds up being a false gain. We add a small amount on top of the stack, but we devalue the whole stack in the process!

Or we could borrow it. But that too is a false gain. That just makes today's problem tomorrow's problem........... without ever actually SOLVING the problem!

Or........... we can confiscate it. We can tax our citizens and our businesses. But since our businesses get all their money from their customers.......... it ALL......... ultimately......... winds up on the citizens!

--------------

What I've presented here is just the tip of the iceberg.

The simple fact is, there are myriad complexities involved in the "illegal immigration/illegal alien" question. There are exactly ZERO short, pithy answers that are worth a damn! Because for every one or two things your short, pithy answers seem to address........ there are twenty incredibly important things that are simply being overlooked or ignored!

When someone glibly says, "Just send 'em all back!" They never seem to bother questioning what we'd be sending them back to! They never bother questioning where the money to round them up is supposed to come from. They never consider how many landlords lose their properties because all their income-producing tennants got deported. They never consider the cascade effect that comes from creating a hole in the economy. And on and on.

.

With all due respect, if all you've got are short, pithy answers........ well, sorry....... you're not really even in the conversation!

Edited July 24, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy

candide · July 24, 2022

26 minutes ago, KanchanaburiGuy said:

Man, I must say, reading through this thread from the beginning......... has been enough to make me dizzy!

With all due respect to all who have contributed, I don't know that I've ever seen a thread with so many poorly thought-out positions and viewpoints!

Seriously, if I had responded to each post where I found myself saying, "Wait, wait, wait! It's not that simple!" I'd've probably tacked on 15 or 20 consecutive posts to the thread!

[I'll assume y'all are saying "Thank you for NOT doing that!" and move on!]

--------------

Now, because it's impractical to address ALL the complex issues that are in desperate need of clarification here, let me give just a few broad brushstrokes to consider.......

----> If we deported all the "illegals" in the United States......... supposedly about 11 million of them........... it would collapse the U.S. economy, and maybe take the rest of the world with it. (Like the real estate crisis of 2007 did, in 2008 & 2009)

Just imagine: 3 to 4 million housing units suddenly being vacated. No mortgage payments being made; no rents being paid. Millions of additional vacancies now competing for buyers and renters, driving down both prices and values.

Just imagine stores and restaurants suddenly having 11 million fewer customers to sell to.

Just imagine the cutbacks in employees and services at schools and hospitals---hospitals closing and schools closing---because there would be a lot fewer people who need what they do.

Just imagine how many layoffs of "Americans" would occur on the production side of things.......... because there are 11 million fewer people around to buy the level of goods they are already geared up to produce. (Imagine.......... 11 million people eating 25 million meals per day! If you're a farmer, a rancher, a meat packer, a canner, a trucker, a packager, et cetera, you may find yourself in deep doo doo! And that's just FOOD!)

And on and on............

-----> Then we have to ask ourselves some very, VERY serious questions about compassion! Are we compassionate people....... or tough-minded, cold-hearted people?

But before you jump to your automatic ego-boosting "Of course we are compassionate!"......... ask yourself.........

Does your compassion have a Nationality? Are you prepared to make decisions "to protect your own".......... (meaning Americans, of course!)........... even while knowing that turning away those people who came here to build a better life for themselves....... (either here or in their home country!).......... might be forced to return to horrendous, dangerous, and/or desperate situations?

I mean, is it really compassion........

if your compassion only extends to "your own".......... instead of being extended to those who are the most in need......... even if they happen to be the "wrong" Nationality?

Can we really call ourselves compassionate people.......... if our compassion stops at the border? "Sorry, you're from the wrong side of the border, so no compassion for you!"

Of course, laws are laws, and laws are important.

But haven't we gotten smarter over time and learned that if laws KEEP people in a desperate situation.......... (violence, starvation, poor education, oppression, et cetera)....... or force them to RETURN to a desperate situation......... that maybe those laws need some serious reexamining?

-----> And then of course there's MONEY.

Personally, I find it useful to think of money as being....... One Big Ol' Stack of Cash!

Want to do this over here? Take some off your stack of money. Want to do that over there? Take some off your stack of money. Why do I find this helpful? Because if you keep taking more and more off the stack.......... eventually that stack disappears!

So, if you suddenly start thinking of all kinds of NEW things that take money........... you're gonna have to figure out what you're NOT going to spend money on.......... because there's only ONE stack of money!

Want to raise the minimum wage? That takes money. Want to give illegal aliens healthcare? That takes money. Want to fine companies for hiring illegal aliens? That takes money (from the company or individual to pay, and for government to enforce). Want to stop more people from crossing the border? That takes money. Need to process asylum seekers? That takes money. Need attorneys and judges to process deportations? That takes money. Need to detain and deport illegal aliens? That takes money. Need to round up and transport 11 million illegal aliens from all over the country? That takes money!

And where does all this NEW money come from?

Well, we can print it. But printing it devalues it. So that winds up being a false gain. We add a small amount on top of the stack, but we devalue the whole stack in the process!

Or we could borrow it. But that too is a false gain. That just makes today's problem tomorrow's problem........... without ever actually SOLVING the problem!

Or........... we can confiscate it. We can tax our citizens and our businesses. But since our businesses get all their money from their customers.......... it ALL......... ultimately......... winds up on the citizens!

--------------

--------------

--------------

What I've presented here is just the tip of the iceberg.

The simple fact is, there are myriad complexities involved in the "illegal immigration/illegal alien" question. There are exactly ZERO short, pithy answers that are worth a damn! Because for every one or two things your short, pithy answers seem to address........ there are twenty incredibly important things that are simply being overlooked or ignored!

When someone glibly says, "Just send 'em all back!" They never seem to bother questioning what we'd be sending them back to! They never bother questioning where the money to round them up is supposed to come from. They never consider how many landlords lose their properties because all their income-producing tennants got deported. They never consider the cascade effect that comes from creating a hole in the economy. And on and on.

.

.

With all due respect, if all you've got are short, pithy answers........ well, sorry....... you're not really even in the conversation!

Exactly. Shrinking the population means shrinking the economy (=recession).

candide · July 24, 2022

6 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

"The lazy" does not include any of those categories. People who are physically and mentally capable of being productive, but choose not to.

How many people are really concerned? After excluding the usual delay to find a job, I guess it weights peanuts.

Scott · July 24, 2022

I have, in the past, worked with refugee processing both for the UN and for programs with the Department of State. I am less knowledgeable about deportation but I do know in the US it gets a little complicated because of human factors.

Many of the people who are in the US illegally, arrived legally. They then overstayed. In some cases for a very long time and in a few cases, unknowingly. One example was an now elderly Canadian who arrived in the US as a very small child with his family. His parents and siblings became US Citizens and somewhere along the line he thought he became a citizen. He did not. He lived his entire life in the US but was up for deportation when 70 years later it was determined he was here illegally. A little late in the game to deport someone who now has only links to family in the US and none in Canada.

Many of the illegals get married, have children and establish themselves here. Deporting them often means leaving children without a parent and in many cases that is a single parent. Even if it isn't it may deprive the family of the primary breadwinner. For those that think they can deport the entire family, that is not always the case. Not all countries grant citizenship to someone born on foreign soil, at least not without some lengthy processes. It is also illegal to actually deport a citizen.

There are multiple variations on the human situation. Sometimes it is an illegal who is the sole and primary caretaker for a related US citizen.

It also needs to be noted that deportations occur with the permission of the receiving country. If they do not want the person back or dispute the citizenship, they can't be returned. With some countries the US does not have relationships and deportation isn't an option.

It's relatively easy to deport, single, unattached illegals with no ties to the US, but it needs to be done quickly before they are well established.

heybruce · July 24, 2022

10 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

No immigrant bashing here- I am an immigrant myself, as was my wife when we lived in Canada. I am not saying to put illegals into prisons. Just man the border effectively and repel them, with force if necessary. Those that are caught are put on planes and sent back where they came from. If they are caught entering the country again, then prison camps. No need for guarding and services like regular prisons. Just tents and rations. Then deportation.

As I explained, it is much cheaper, and possibly profitable, to simply regularly check the employment status of businesses known to rely on illegal immigrants and impose heavy fines on those that do. The fact that this isn't being done shows that politicians don't see illegal immigration as a problem, or at least as significant a problem as to justify annoying businesses and political donors.

The US-Mexico border is 3145 kilometers or 1954 miles long. Using four shifts of officers working 42 hour shifts for all 168 hours of the week would require over 120,000 officers to station one every 100 meters on this border. That costs serious money and it would not prevent people entering the country by sea, air and other borders, not prevent mobs rushing this thinly patrolled border, and not prevent people from entering the country illegally and overstaying.

I call BS on every politician calling for greater border security who isn't calling for much more aggressive enforcement of laws against hiring illegal immigrants. DeSantis is at the top of my BS list.

heybruce · July 24, 2022

10 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

To say Trump's methods on immigration didn't work is a lie. Below links also shows Obama's progress.

Now impress us with biden's progress.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massive-ice-raids-sweep-680-undocumented-immigrants-across-mississippi-n1040176

https://www.usnews.com/news/data-mine/articles/2018-03-13/fewer-crossing-border-fewer-deported-immigration-under-trump

Your first link describes a series of raids in one state in 2019. So what? Your second link shows fewer border arrests and deportations during Trump's first year than during Obama's final years. Again, so what?

Perhaps the most significant words in the first source:

"Federal authorities would not say if the businesses who cooperated with the raids would be charged."

Got anything showing a serious crackdown on employers of illegal immigrants?

Credo · July 24, 2022

17 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Your first link describes a series of raids in one state in 2019. So what? Your second link shows fewer border arrests and deportations during Trump's first year than during Obama's final years. Again, so what?

Perhaps the most significant words in the first source:

"Federal authorities would not say if the businesses who cooperated with the raids would be charged."

Got anything showing a serious crackdown on employers of illegal immigrants?

The US is basically controlled by business. If it's good for business it will be allowed to continue. Remember, some businesses are 'too big to fail', but you never find a person that's too important to be homeless.

EVENKEEL · July 25, 2022

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

Your first link describes a series of raids in one state in 2019. So what? Your second link shows fewer border arrests and deportations during Trump's first year than during Obama's final years. Again, so what?

Perhaps the most significant words in the first source:

"Federal authorities would not say if the businesses who cooperated with the raids would be charged."

Got anything showing a serious crackdown on employers of illegal immigrants?

Show one link where biden's boys are doing anything to address illegals working in the US. That's the point. When Obama was cracking down on illegals his own party was behind him, in comes Trump cracking down on illegals and now it's racist. Double standard.

Now comes biden who campaigned with compassion for the illegals, and what happened? The crossings have exploded.

EVENKEEL · July 25, 2022

9 hours ago, Credo said:

And this is from your second link:

Yet, despite his hard-line rhetoric, Trump has still deported fewer immigrants than President Barack Obama did in each of the early years of his term.

Like most of what Trump, there was more noise than results.

You're absolutely right, obama was at work deporting and building fences. His own party was behind him. In comes Trump making illegals a big part of his campaign and what happened? Every step of the way the democrats opposed him doing the very same things obama had been doing. And you ask why Obama did more?

heybruce · July 25, 2022

21 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Show one link where biden's boys are doing anything to address illegals working in the US. That's the point. When Obama was cracking down on illegals his own party was behind him, in comes Trump cracking down on illegals and now it's racist. Double standard.

Now comes biden who campaigned with compassion for the illegals, and what happened? The crossings have exploded.

What makes you think the Democratic party was behind Obama and his deportations? https://www.npr.org/2017/01/20/510799842/obama-leaves-office-as-deporter-in-chief

Also, why are you making this about party politics? Have I posted anything suggesting that either party is doing anything right regarding illegal immigration?

EVENKEEL · July 25, 2022

35 minutes ago, heybruce said:

35 minutes ago, heybruce said:

What makes you think the Democratic party was behind Obama and his deportations? https://www.npr.org/2017/01/20/510799842/obama-leaves-office-as-deporter-in-chief

Also, why are you making this about party politics? Have I posted anything suggesting that either party is doing anything right regarding illegal immigration?

I understand it's impossible to defend biden's policy on illegals.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/bidens-welcome-program-for-illegal-immigrants/

Edited July 25, 2022 by EVENKEEL

herfiehandbag · July 25, 2022

On 7/20/2022 at 5:17 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Please go back and tell me which term best describes a person who enters illegally.

A human being?

heybruce · July 25, 2022

43 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I understand it's impossible to defend biden's policy on illegals.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/bidens-welcome-program-for-illegal-immigrants/

And it's impossible to defend the Republican's strategy of demonizing illegal immigrants while playing nice with the businesses that hire them.

So neither party is serious about the problem. Once again, why are you making it an issue about political parties?

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By raft and on foot, migrants cross Rio Grande from Mexico to Texas

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