Pope Francis visiting Canada to apologize for Indigenous abuse in Catholic residential schools

[Bkk Brian]

9 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

And you should read up on his brother’s views…

 

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4493732

Interesting, from the link:

 

Daniel Highway says his brother Tomson's words about the "benefits" of Indian Residential Schools are being "cherry picked" by racists and they don't tell the whole story.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Yes, because his brother's views are more important than the actual man in question. Please. I don't see how this is relevant at all.

You used one person’s views as your defence of the cultural genocide this thread deals with, I’m simply pointing out even his own brother rejects that view. 

[Hanaguma]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

You used one person’s views as your defence of the cultural genocide this thread deals with, I’m simply pointing out even his own brother rejects that view. 

Well, what was the alternative available at that time? A lot of people are quick to use their 20.20 hindsight to point out the wrongs of the past, yet are slow to say what would have been better. Any thoughts? 

 

Native communities had, and still have, many deep and serious problems. These simplistic views of the past do nothing to help them. 

[Bluespunk]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Well, what was the alternative available at that time? A lot of people are quick to use their 20.20 hindsight to point out the wrongs of the past, yet are slow to say what would have been better. Any thoughts? 

 

Native communities had, and still have, many deep and serious problems. These simplistic views of the past do nothing to help them. 

The alternative was to leave the children with their families and not use facile arguments to justify cultural genocide. 

[Hanaguma]

23 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The alternative was to leave the children with their families and not use facile arguments to justify cultural genocide. 

Leave them at home. OK.  And then what... Ignore the law that says all children must attend school.  Would you say the same for the rest of the kids in the country too? Let them all stay with their families, no compulsory education?

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Leave them at home. OK.  And then what... Ignore the law that says all children must attend school.  Would you say the same for the rest of the kids in the country too? Let them all stay with their families, no compulsory education?

Removing children from their families had nothing to do with education and everything to do with the zealotry of cultural assimilation. 

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

Removing children from their families had nothing to do with education and everything to do with the zealotry of cultural assimilation. 

...and you know this how exactly? The point was education. Part of which was making the native children into good productive Canadians.   To whit;

 

Beginning in the 1870s, both the federal government and Plains Nations wanted to include schooling provisions in treaties, though for different reasons. Indigenous leaders hoped Euro-Canadian schooling would help their young to learn the skills of the newcomer society and help them make a successful transition to a world dominated by the strangers. With the passage of the British North America Act in 1867, and the implementation of the Indian Act (1876), the government was required to provide Indigenous youth with an education and to assimilate them into Canadian society.

 

The federal government supported schooling as a way to make First Nations economically self-sufficient. Their underlying objective was to decrease Indigenous dependence on public funds. The government therefore collaborated with Christian missionaries to encourage religious conversion and Indigenous economic self-sufficiency. This led to the development of an educational policy after 1880 that relied heavily on custodial schools. These were not the kind of schools Indigenous leaders had hoped to create.

 

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Well, what was the alternative available at that time? A lot of people are quick to use their 20.20 hindsight to point out the wrongs of the past, yet are slow to say what would have been better. Any thoughts? 

 

Native communities had, and still have, many deep and serious problems. These simplistic views of the past do nothing to help them. 

The outcome of stripping people of their cultural heritage is very clearly demonstrated world wide.

 

The problems within native Canadian communities are mirrored by those in Native American communities, Native Australian Communities, Native New Zealand Communities.

 

Denial of the impacts of the past on the present is patently nonsense, but entirely in keeping with the body of your comments in this thread.

[Bluespunk]

13 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

...and you know this how exactly? The point was education. Part of which was making the native children into good productive Canadians.   To whit;

 

Beginning in the 1870s, both the federal government and Plains Nations wanted to include schooling provisions in treaties, though for different reasons. Indigenous leaders hoped Euro-Canadian schooling would help their young to learn the skills of the newcomer society and help them make a successful transition to a world dominated by the strangers. With the passage of the British North America Act in 1867, and the implementation of the Indian Act (1876), the government was required to provide Indigenous youth with an education and to assimilate them into Canadian society.

 

The federal government supported schooling as a way to make First Nations economically self-sufficient. Their underlying objective was to decrease Indigenous dependence on public funds. The government therefore collaborated with Christian missionaries to encourage religious conversion and Indigenous economic self-sufficiency. This led to the development of an educational policy after 1880 that relied heavily on custodial schools. These were not the kind of schools Indigenous leaders had hoped to create.

 

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/residential-schools

How do I know. 
 

TRC

 

Survivor accounts. 
 

40 Billion dollars. 

[Hanaguma]

29 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The outcome of stripping people of their cultural heritage is very clearly demonstrated world wide.

 

The problems within native Canadian communities are mirrored by those in Native American communities, Native Australian Communities, Native New Zealand Communities.

 

Denial of the impacts of the past on the present is patently nonsense, but entirely in keeping with the body of your comments in this thread.

I have never denied the impact. To quote myself,

 

"I freely admit there were faults with the system, the implementation, and most of all the horrid behavior of some of the staff. "

 

Today we know better and would not do the same thing.  150 years ago? Different world.  

[Hanaguma]

35 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

How do I know. 
 

TRC

 

Survivor accounts. 
 

40 Billion dollars. 

You might be better served to examine the documents and discussions at the time the schools were being implemented.  Contemporary accounts based on memory and community "knowledge keepers" make for compelling stories but say nothing to motivation and intent. 

 

The TRC was flawed from the outset. It was a sounding board not a truth seeking body.  I would have preferred it were stronger, that it had been given subpoena power, and could have investigated the claims more thoroughly.  Instead, we are left with lurid tales of abuse without anything specific to grab on to or check independent of the commission.

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You might be better served to examine the documents and discussions at the time the schools were being implemented.  Contemporary accounts based on memory and community "knowledge keepers" make for compelling stories but say nothing to motivation and intent. 

 

The TRC was flawed from the outset. It was a sounding board not a truth seeking body.  I would have preferred it were stronger, that it had been given subpoena power, and could have investigated the claims more thoroughly.  Instead, we are left with lurid tales of abuse without anything specific to grab on to or check independent of the commission.

All three reasons I gave you remain valid and none of your comments change that.
 

As at least one other poster has postulated your reasons for pursuing the line you have is opaque at the very best. 

[mikebike]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:23 PM, Hanaguma said:

Well, there was a $40 billion settlement by the Canadian government.... is that massive enough?

Which, of course you know, they haven't paid. Promises are worth nothing. It's the actions which speak.

Edited July 31, 2022 by mikebike

[mikebike]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:22 AM, Hanaguma said:

At the time, that was considered best practice for education.

BS. I know for a fact it was questioned by many without “power/political capital" as it happened... didn't change anything then, and apparently you bought the lies.

[mikebike]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:22 AM, Hanaguma said:

Same thing happened to the thousands of immigrant kids in Canada.

PLEASE. Give me ONE substantiated case of a non- indigenous immigrant being unwillingly taken from their family for reeducation. You are truly nuts.

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, mikebike said:

PLEASE. Give me ONE substantiated case of a non- indigenous immigrant being unwillingly taken from their family for reeducation. You are truly nuts.

Never said they were. I said they were subject to assimilation at the hands of the public education system.  The native kids were taken because there was no way to put a school in every village and settlement across the country, especially the north.   And as the country grew and infrastructure also became better, the residential schools began to decline and more indigenous kids went to day schools.

[Hanaguma]

33 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

A lot of covert racism being displayed here by one poster only.

Being accused of racism is nonsense. It is inflammatory, rude, and also simply wrong.   Surely we can discuss contentious issues without personal attacks. Either show your evidence or retract the slur.

[coolcarer]

Denying Racism in Canada’s Residential School System

 

Prevalent public discourse denies that residential schools were part of a racist policy of cultural genocide supported by politicians from different political parties, by churches, and by the general public. This discourse of denial concedes that individual Canadians or sub-groups of Canadians might be responsible, but shields Canada from blame. Racism remains individual, interpersonal, and a product of ignorance. The TRC report calls for training in anti-racism for those working in educational institutions.  
 

https://ojs-o.library.ubc.ca/index.php/CERJ/article/download/453/497

[Hanaguma]

25 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Denying Racism in Canada’s Residential School System

 

Prevalent public discourse denies that residential schools were part of a racist policy of cultural genocide supported by politicians from different political parties, by churches, and by the general public. This discourse of denial concedes that individual Canadians or sub-groups of Canadians might be responsible, but shields Canada from blame. Racism remains individual, interpersonal, and a product of ignorance. The TRC report calls for training in anti-racism for those working in educational institutions.  
 

https://ojs-o.library.ubc.ca/index.php/CERJ/article/download/453/497

Interesting paper. Unfortunately, literally the first sentence of it is false.   

 

On May 27, 2021, Tk̓emlúps te Secwépemc (the Kamloops Indian Band) announced that the remains of 215 children had been found in a mass grave on the grounds of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School

 

Did. Not. Happen. No mass graves have ever been discovered. No human remains, let alone remains of children, have been discovered. There has been no forensic study to determine the veracity of this claim at all. It has been more than a year and the Band has done nothing to move the investigation forward. So forgive me if I do not take this researcher seriously when the premise of his paper is based on nonsense. 

 

As an aside, even the TRC acknowledges that only 51 children died in the entire 80 plus years the school was open, so where did 215 suddenly materialize from?

 

Now, do you have any original thoughts on the subject, or are you just going to post poorly researched material- I mean, analysing Facebook comments?  Give me a break.  

Edited July 31, 2022 by Hanaguma
Missed fact

[coolcarer]

29 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Interesting paper. Unfortunately, literally the first sentence of it is false.   

 

On May 27, 2021, Tk̓emlúps te Secwépemc (the Kamloops Indian Band) announced that the remains of 215 children had been found in a mass grave on the grounds of the former Kamloops Indian Residential School

 

Did. Not. Happen. No mass graves have ever been discovered. No human remains, let alone remains of children, have been discovered. There has been no forensic study to determine the veracity of this claim at all. It has been more than a year and the Band has done nothing to move the investigation forward. So forgive me if I do not take this researcher seriously when the premise of his paper is based on nonsense. 

 

As an aside, even the TRC acknowledges that only 51 children died in the entire 80 plus years the school was open, so where did 215 suddenly materialize from?

 

Now, do you have any original thoughts on the subject, or are you just going to post poorly researched material- I mean, analysing Facebook comments?  Give me a break.  

Public discourse goes on in Facebook right, forums and social media if I’m not mistaken so their research is bang on. Did you notice the two full pages of reference credits and the paper is from Bishops Uni? 
 

Didn’t they say that the official report won’t be out till around the end of the month on the Kamloops School after they had finished the underground surveys? Sure that’s all been gone over already in this thread so no point repeating what’s already been said.  The paper was also clear that it did not research the school findings.
 

The paper is about racism. But no surprise you deflect that with the school. I rest my case at that and bid you good night.

Edited July 31, 2022 by coolcarer
Spelling

[Hanaguma]

33 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Public discourse goes on in Facebook right, forums and social media if I’m not mistaken so their research is bang on. Did you notice the two full pages of reference credits and the paper is from Bishops Uni? 
 

Didn’t they say that the official report won’t be out till around the end of the month on the Kamloops School after they had finished the underground surveys? Sure that’s all been gone over already in this thread so no point repeating what’s already been said.  The paper was also clear that it did not research the school findings.
 

The paper is about racism. But no surprise you deflect that with the school. I rest my case at that and bid you good night.

I noticed the paper was a remarkable tongue bath of the TRC and, unsurprisingly, did not make an attempt to offer any counterpoint to the thesis. Most academic research at least mentions in passing what "the other side" is saying. 

 

It isn't a deflection when the premise of the research, in this case reactions to news articles, is based on a lie. The articles used all told the same unproven story about unmarked graves being found at the schools. You cannot base research on flawed and inaccurate source material.  This makes any research coming from them utterly devoid of value. 

 

Not sure why you think that mentioning the paper is from Bishop's is some form of credibility. Bish is a very average-to-mediocre school, ranked #62 in the country.  

 

Still waiting for an original thought. Perhaps one may come to you in your sleep.  

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Leave them at home. OK.  And then what... Ignore the law that says all children must attend school.  Would you say the same for the rest of the kids in the country too? Let them all stay with their families, no compulsory education?

And why not school the children locally? Or would you support sending all children off to boarding schools to be educated?

[Hanaguma]

25 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And why not school the children locally? Or would you support sending all children off to boarding schools to be educated?

Actually, quite a few WERE schooled locally. According to the TRC, only about one third of native children attended residential schools. And that number dropped over time as the infrastructure in the country gradually made remote communities accessable.   Day schools (as they were called) actually outnumbered Residential schools by a substantial number- there were 700 day schools but only 80 residential schools at the peak of use in the 1930s. But the residential schools in general had more students per school.  And natives who didn't live on reserve land sent their kids to usual local/municipal schools. But by law ALL kids in Canada had to attend school.

 

But for children who lived in a trapping camp which was a 3 day canoe journey from the nearest town, it wasn't possible to do so at the local level. 

[coolcarer]

9 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

I noticed the paper was a remarkable tongue bath of the TRC and, unsurprisingly, did not make an attempt to offer any counterpoint to the thesis. Most academic research at least mentions in passing what "the other side" is saying. 

 

It isn't a deflection when the premise of the research, in this case reactions to news articles, is based on a lie. The articles used all told the same unproven story about unmarked graves being found at the schools. You cannot base research on flawed and inaccurate source material.  This makes any research coming from them utterly devoid of value. 

 

Not sure why you think that mentioning the paper is from Bishop's is some form of credibility. Bish is a very average-to-mediocre school, ranked #62 in the country.  

 

Still waiting for an original thought. Perhaps one may come to you in your sleep.  

Are we reading two separate papers because the one I’m reading contains a balance of opinions and discussions that includes those denouncing racism and those who were explicitly open about it.

 

Anyway interesting that you take the time look up the University ranking to attempt to discredit it.

 

I’ll agree to disagree with you, I find it informative, very well researched and reflective of some posts on here. No I’m not going to link to them, they are here for all to see.

[coolcarer]

"Until she was 13 years old, she was known by the number 11. From the age of 13 to 16, she was number 39."

 

Interesting series of 5 articles on the issues reflected by some of the survivors and the difficult process for some of the locals to face their inner racism. All the articles are sublinked within each article, here are just two:

 

‘Just another Indian’: Surviving Canada’s residential schools
A survivor of schools that took Indigenous children from their families shares her story of abuse, neglect and healing. “I tell people I spent 10 years in jail even though I never committed a crime.”
Alsena says she never felt love at the school. In fact, she never felt human. Until she was 13 years old, she was known by the number 11. From the age of 13 to 16, she was number 39.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/3/24/just-another-indian-surviving-canadas-residential-schools

 

‘How did we become enemies?’: Racism and reconciliation in Canada
In one rural town with a history of racism, small efforts at reconciliation are underway – but will they be enough?
St Paul, Alberta – When Amil Shapka, 62, reflects on his hometown being referred to as racist, he grows defensive. St Paul, Alberta, is dear to his heart. The people here, he says, are closely connected and it is a good place to raise a family.
“Sometimes our parents would threaten that if you didn’t behave, ‘we’re going to take you to the Indians’,” he says.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/5/1/how-did-we-become-enemies-racism-and-reconciliation-in-canada