Trump under investigation for potential violations of Espionage Act

[LosLobo]

1 minute ago, BonMot said:

Please review my post above. Mind you that is only related to the Russia hoax and not the myriad of other supra judicial criminality or interlinking Hunter Biden schemes and scams.

 

DOJ under Garland and subsequent three equally dysfunctional

The Russia hoax was not a hoax. 

The Trump 2016 campaign manager recently admitted that he did collude with Russia.
 

 

[stevenl]

Some of the documents seized were protected by attorney-client privilege according to Fox.

That leads to the question if that privilege still applies when a false declaration has been made:

 

whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation…shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You forget, it wasn’t ’the media’ that put this story out.

 

It was Trump.

 

Tge first anyone not directly involved in any of this heard about it was when Trump went public.

Act 1. Trump says only mobsters take the Fifth.

 

Act 2. Trump revises the laws on documents.

 

Act 3. Trump's lawyer states all documents have been returned.

 

Act 4. Trump goes public with the FBI raid.

 

I don't know what Act 5 is going to be, but hoist with one's own petard seems to be the order of the day.

[Eric Loh]

16 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Investigation Espionage lol.

 

I smell another Jan 6 show trial .That is an absolute farce. Let the Dems wear it like a sword of Damocles

 

Mid term elections.... How convenient. Too lol.

 

A president charged with espionage. It's laughable on it's face.

Actually the mid term election is looking very good for Democrats in the senate race. The House is a tough call but the bruising Rep primaries and the overturn of Roe vs Wade and now the aftermath of the search revealing possible nefarious criminal intent give a glimmer of optimism for the Democrats. 

 

[placeholder]

24 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Investigation Espionage lol.

 

I smell another Jan 6 show trial .That is an absolute farce. Let the Dems wear it like a sword of Damocles

 

Mid term elections.... How convenient. Too lol.

 

A president charged with espionage. It's laughable on it's face.

Espionage Isn’t the Strongest Case Against Trump. It’s Simpler Than That.

If you or I had some 21 boxes of potentially classified information in our home, the Feds wouldn’t ask for it politely or even issue a subpoena. They would have taken possession of that material right away, and we would face serious charges. The DOJ’s decision to wait and only obtain a search warrant after they received information that Trump had not relinquished all of the material was likely motivated by deference to the former president. 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/08/14/trump-classified-documents-doj-opinion-00051584

[LosLobo]

15 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Lol

https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnWHuber/status/1263157451609833478

Lol, The poster is an imposter masking as an ex US attorney , not a genuine account and the post is from May 2020, this has been overtaken by events of August 2022 where Manafort admitted collusion so the wiretap was justified after all.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by LosLobo

[BonMot]

2 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

What can be worse when even Bill Barr laughs at Dinesh D”Souza’s conspiracy theory film. No one take that film serious. Good for a chuckle though. 

Bill Barr?

 

You mean throughly disgraced Bill Barr? The person that we must add disgrace on to of disgrace? Oh, ok righto.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-bill-barr-disgrace-steve-chapman-20210630-7pb7qtdkqzg27cg27ezvr3yhqu-story.html

[Eric Loh]

1 minute ago, BonMot said:

Bill Barr?

 

You mean throughly disgraced Bill Barr? The person that we must add disgrace on to of disgrace? Oh, ok righto.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-bill-barr-disgrace-steve-chapman-20210630-7pb7qtdkqzg27cg27ezvr3yhqu-story.html

Disgrace by who? 

[CharlieH]

Reported posts and responses removed,

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, BonMot said:

Bill Barr?

 

You mean throughly disgraced Bill Barr? The person that we must add disgrace on to of disgrace? Oh, ok righto.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-bill-barr-disgrace-steve-chapman-20210630-7pb7qtdkqzg27cg27ezvr3yhqu-story.html

from that article. 

"But he was bad enough. The latest evidence comes from his own mouth, in interviews with Jonathan Karl, whose account appears in The Atlantic. It reveals an official who is supposed to serve the public letting himself be used by a corrupt and autocratic president who violated every norm in the ruthless pursuit of his sordid interests."

When even a toady like Bill Barr laughs at that documentary, you know its ridiculous

[KanchanaburiGuy]

37 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Some of the documents seized were protected by attorney-client privilege according to Fox.

That leads to the question if that privilege still applies when a false declaration has been made:

 

whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsifies, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation…shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.

You raise an interesting question, one I've never considered.

 

I've always heard of "Attorney-Client Privilege" in the context of things an Attorney cannot reveal about his or her Client.

 

But in this case, the records have been taken directly FROM THE CLIENT. Therefore, there's no need for sheltering by an attorney. The records came directly from the client, so no "middleman" [the attorney] was involved!

 

But if "Attorney-Client Privilege" is still an issue......... doesn't that suggest that the it's THE ATTORNEY that is seeking protection from the "Privilege," not the Client?

 

It has never occurred to me before that "Attorney-Client Privilege" may sometimes be called-upon to protect THE ATTORNEY........ rather than the Client! It has never occurred to me that the concept can be applied both ways!

 

Heck........I dont even know if it can!

 

At a minimum, anyway, it seems to me that "Attorney-Client Privilege" cannot be an issue........... when the information is coming directly from the Client. Direct collection from the Client makes the Attorney's role moot.

 

Unless.............

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, mikeymike100 said:

I certainly agree the 'system' is not perfect, but its the best we have.

You think his guilt "was never in doubt" , I believe his guilt, or innocence is up to a jury to decide, but we are getting way ahead of ourselves.

Very true. And as we know, juries are only as good as the legal team the defense can put together. Think OJ? Granted, the American judicial system sure beats China, Russia and Thailand. Flawed, yes. The best? Questionable. 

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, proton said:

Karma is a myth for fools to believe in, where was karma when it came to dishing it out to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot etc? The answer is usually well they will get it in their next life, which conveniently there is no proof for either.

Allowing ourselves to possess a belief system, that insists in believing only that which we can touch, smell, taste, see, hear or feel is quite a limitation. There is so much to this universe and creation that we know absolutely nothing about. Does that mean it does not exist? Did gravity not exist before Newton? Did natural selection of the species not exist prior to Darwin? 

[KanchanaburiGuy]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Allowing ourselves to possess a belief system, that insists in believing only that which we can touch, smell, taste, see, hear or feel is quite a limitation. There is so much to this universe and creation that we know absolutely nothing about. Does that mean it does not exist? Did gravity not exist before Newton? Did natural selection of the species not exist prior to Darwin? 

Spidermike: "Does that mean it does not exist?"

 

No, it means it is time to start asking questions and trying to confirm its existence.

 

It doesn't  mean it's time to automatically conclude therefore that it does.

 

Belief proves nothing. Sincere belief proves nothing. Being absolutely certain in your belief proves nothing.

 

Indeed, being absolutely certain in one's beliefs only means a person has become too tired, lazy or frustrated to keep asking questions. So they grab onto any answer they feel comfortable with....... probably something that people they like and admire agree with and speak favorably about......... and they stop caring whether it's true or not!

 

But stopping asking questions......... is not the same thing....... as finding actual answers!

 

Ultimately, asking "If you can't see it, touch it, feel it....... does that mean it doesn't exist?" is the wrong question. It's asking someone to prove a negative, which we all know can't be done.

 

The right approach is to require someone who claims something DOES exist....... to prove it. And if all they can present is their belief  that it exists......... well.........

 

Belief proves nothing----Never has, never will. 

 

Belief can be strong enough to make you stop asking questions. But belief will never be strong enough eliminate the need to ask more and better questions......... if what you really want is the truth!

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

I'll give you kudos for your passionate beliefs.

"45 had ZERO right to the docs he kept."

You have no way of knowing that with the certainty you express.  That much is obvious to anyone who is looking at this objectively.

"His counsel/he LIED in a signed affadavit in June claiming they had returned everything. That is intent to deceive and can form the basis for charging him with "conspiracy to commit espionage".

Again, you have zero personal knowledge of all of the details regarding whatever Trump transferred back or any of the disputes and talks between Trump and government agencies in the whole.

What you do have so far is a one-sided story put out by a media who has clearly shown they are propagandists.  And the narrative fits like a glove on your Trumpian bias.

The U.S. is not a democracy.  It's a Republic.  That you get this elemental fact wrong suggests you may be wrong about much else.

"What you do have so far is a one-sided story put out by a media who has clearly shown they are propagandists."

 

While the Hunter Biden laptop story you and others keep bringing up is, well, a perfect fit for your description.

 

"The U.S. is not a democracy.  It's a Republic."

 

Why do some people have so much trouble grasping the concept of a democratic republic?

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, BonMot said:

Investigation Espionage lol.

 

I smell another Jan 6 show trial .That is an absolute farce. Let the Dems wear it like a sword of Damocles

 

Mid term elections.... How convenient. Too lol.

 

A president charged with espionage. It's laughable on it's face.

Your "argument" certainly isn't based on evidence.

 

Is your assumption that Trump couldn't have done anything wrong based on him being Trump and infallible?

[Scott]

An inflammatory, off-topic post has been removed.  Keep it civil or face a suspension.  

 

[Bkk Brian]

Trumps new defense?

 

"I have a standing order that any time I commit a crime it’s not a crime."

[SunnyinBangrak]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Trumps new defense?

 

"I have a standing order that any time I commit a crime it’s not a crime."

Looks like yet another false quote attributed to Trump to make more people hate him, or do you have a source for this unlikely quote?

[Wrwest]

22 hours ago, heybruce said:

"justified frustration/anger within the American working class."

 

May be off-topic, but I am genuinely curious as to what this justified frustration/anger is and how anyone imagined Trump could or would make it better.

 

 

50+- years of the American working class in a documented economic squeeze which, I hasten to point out is the result of the actions?policies of both major political parties. The USA is not alone in this as it can be seen in Europe and certainly is reflected by many seeking to retire in lower cost countries.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Looks like yet another false quote attributed to Trump to make more people hate him, or do you have a source for this unlikely quote?

Satire missed you this morning?

 

Reminds me, all those documents he declassified, can anyone now put in  freedom of information request and get them all made public?

[EVENKEEL]

22 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Trumps new defense?

 

"I have a standing order that any time I commit a crime it’s not a crime."

Link please.

[ThailandRyan]

Just saw an article in which folks believe that the inside Mole at MaraLago was none other than Jared Kushner, Trumps Son in Law as he appears to be making a deal to save his own hide....

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/jared-kushner-theories-saudi-money-donald-trump-mole-fbi-raid-1733474%3famp=1

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by ThailandRyan

[stevenl]

19 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Just saw an article in which folks believe that the inside Mole at MaraLago was none other than Jared Kushner, Trumps Son in Law as he appears to be making a deal to save his own hide....

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/jared-kushner-theories-saudi-money-donald-trump-mole-fbi-raid-1733474%3famp=1

 

I think it could be anyone on the inside. Hell, even a case could be made it was Trump himself.

Edited August 15, 2022 by stevenl

[newnative]

15 hours ago, Tanlic said:

As a Brit on the outside looking in I find it amazing how low the standars of education are in the USA and how easily led their people are. 

Joe Biden sits in a bunker eating ice cream and wins their elction beating a President who has done more good in 4 years than any other in history.

 

Trump did get silly saying the elction was rigged which it was but not in the way he was sying it happened. The left's constant barage of lies, hoaxes by the media and fake impeachments convinced the dumbest of the dumb Trump was some kind of monster.

 

The power of the left came to the fore and  the dumbest ice cream eating clown emerged from his bunker to become POTUS. His forst task was to reverse evey bit of good Trump had done and to hell with the consequences. The result the worst economy in history, first American soldiers in 4 years are killed. Putin says Yipee and invades the Ukraine and Rocket man starts playing with his toys again. The ordinary man on the street can hardly pay his bills or fill his car with fuel and Biden's leadership has hit everone in the pocket from Kansas to katchanaburi.

 

SureTrump tells lies like all politicians to try nad sustain support but he's not a crook like Biden or that criminal son of his. Like Hillary and the deletion of 36,000 emails that had been subpoenaed they are untouchable. Trump on the other hand they can't allow him tobecome President again so they come up with yet another witch hunt. Never mind the fact he had the poer to declassify every piece of paper he had the right to remove from the whitehouse. They are looking for affect in the most underhanded move againt an ex President in history.

 

Guess what American Hard Lefties? Their banana republic behaviour is not going to work this time. Apart from Trump being hit by a bolt of ligtning the Trump De Santis avalanche is heading your way at a million miles per hour.

      Seriously?   Trump did more good in 4 years than any other President????  You've got to be kidding.  His Presidency will go down in history as one of the worst.  In a nutshell, he passed a great big tax cut for himself--his only goal in running for President--and then pretty much lost interest.  Never got around to much of anything else, including his big, boastful pledge made many times to replace Obamacare with something much better--and, in his words 'beautiful'--whatever that would mean with health care.  Maybe free boob jobs.  We'll never know.

     Instead, he spent his time playing endless rounds of golf at his golf courses, while grossly overcharging the American tax payer--always a big, fat, grifter at heart, our Donald.   When he wasn't teeing it up, he spent his 4 years tweeting countless lies and other assorted unhinged nonsense; believed, unfortunately, by far too many.

[Bkk Brian]

From none other than Fox News......lol

 

Sources told Fox News that some records could be covered by executive privilege, which gives the president of the United States and other officials within the executive branch the authority to withhold certain sensitive forms of advice and consultation between the president and senior advisers. 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-seizes-privileged-trump-records-during-raid-doj-opposes-request-independent-review-sources

[ThailandRyan]

1 minute ago, newnative said:

      Seriously?   Trump did more good in 4 years than any other President????  You've got to be kidding.  His Presidency will go down in history as one of the worst.  In a nutshell, he passed a great big tax cut for himself--his only goal in running for President--and then pretty much lost interest.  Never got around to much of anything else, including his big, boastful pledge made many times to replace Obamacare with something much better--and, in his words 'beautiful'--whatever that would mean with health care.  Maybe free boob jobs.  We'll never know.

     Instead, he spent his time playing endless rounds of golf at his golf courses, while grossly overcharging the American tax payer--always a big, fat, grifter at heart, our Donald.   When he wasn't teeing it up, he spent his 4 years tweeting countless lies and other assorted unhinged nonsense; believed, unfortunately, by far too many.

You forgot his McDonald's binges....

[Eric Loh]

17 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I think it could be anyone on the inside. Hell, even a case could be made it was Trump himself.

The finger prints on the documents and the survelliance tapes will reveal and incriminate the traitors. 

[Walker88]

1 hour ago, Wrwest said:

50+- years of the American working class in a documented economic squeeze which, I hasten to point out is the result of the actions?policies of both major political parties. The USA is not alone in this as it can be seen in Europe and certainly is reflected by many seeking to retire in lower cost countries.

There is a major difference between an intractable problem and a Snake Oil salesman who pretends he has a solution.

 

The intractable problem:  Low-skill labor has zero pricing power.

 

Jobs were not so much exported by globalization, but rather were sent to way station of the road to oblivion. At every level of the labor ladder, labor is being obviated. If you're a poorly educated laborer in a Western nation, you really are redundant. Unnecessary. An anachronism. You can learn a new skill, or accept that you are just in the way.

 

This is most clear in the US in Red States. There are three States where SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) is the major 'employer' (KY, TN, WV). There are also pockets of despair in most other Red States, because what their poorly educated workforce offered is no longer needed. Technology---which takes no time off---replaced them.

 

Many stopgap measures tried to ameliorate the decline in labor's pricing power. Cheap credit and the 3rd household income (home equity) was one, but that ended really badly in 2008. There has been some shuffling of jobs, and many new jobs are in the service sector, but for the most part, the problem is going to keep coming back. The recently signed Bill will help, because it introduces money for new industries (green) as well as infrastructure (which cannot be exported). Ironically, repubs opposed those measures, likely because it would help the voting block they and 45 need.

 

As labor was obviated, along came the Snake Oil salesman, telling people it wasn't their fault they were falling behind. It was immigrants or Moslems or Democrats. It was democracy itself. Make him king and there'll be a double bucket of KFC on every dinner table. Of course none of those people are actually going to want to pick strawberries or lettuce or clean the toilets at MaL (he employed dozens of undocumented aliens), but when he tells them things they want to hear ("You have the best houses, the best boats"....as he has done in many of his rallies), they suck it up.

 

The major difference---besides actually caring about the US---between the current Administration and the defeated one, is that this one is offering the best solution possible, while the standing joke about the last failed Administration was 'this is Infrastructure Week', which turned out to be Godot.

 

Everything is a stop gap, even the switch to clean energy and infrastructure has a shelf life, but it buys time. It is a positive. The last guy only offered excuses, not solutions. Rather than make things better, his schtick was to foment anger, then manufacture enemies for the rage. It worked to build a cult, but it did no good for the country.

 

New forms of energy, making the US less dependent on foreign sources, is a step forward. It also creates jobs. Rebuilding infrastructure is an infinitely better use of monetary resources than a $2 trillion tax cut for the Donor Class. Negotiating prescription drug prices---which Biden's Bill does---will save tens of millions for the elderly.

 

This is reality. The labor issue will return, as technology's progress is relentless. It will continue to move up the foodchain, obviating white collar jobs quite soon.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Walker88

[LosLobo]

13 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

The finger prints on the documents and the survelliance tapes will reveal and incriminate the traitors. 

Recently forensics gained the ability to date-stamp fingerprints. So the ones after Trump became FPOTUS will be interesting. When he was president I think he may have had the ability to share them with anyone of his choosing.

Edited August 15, 2022 by LosLobo