Who is in charge? Liz Truss or Jeremy Hunt?

[RayC]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It currently seems to be in a similar  situation from a few weeks ago when it was announced that Queen Elizabeth wasn't feeling too well and all her Family are on the way to Balmoral .

   Similar to the other Lizs current predicament . 

As in, we are just waiting for the official announcement of her demise 

To misquote Beryl from Bristol: "Oh no, not another 10 days of mourning".

[proton]

Bring back Boris is the solution

[puchooay]

18 minutes ago, RayC said:

No need for Placeholder and myself to bother, someone got there before us.

 

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/?_sft_theme=the-economics-of-brexit

 

Can't claim to have read most of the reports but those I have browsed paint a negative picture.

 

I look forward to you presenting your objections to the methodology and/or findings in due course. 

 

In the meantime, perhaps you could list the economic benefits we have gained from Brexit or are they all due 'mañana'?

Nothing about the cost of Covid19 or the war in Ukraine???

 

As I pointed out, we will not know the drawbacks or benefits of Brexit until the economy is back to pre Covid and pre war levels. Then we can talk.

[NoshowJones]

33 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

They'll do more than the Tories, that's for sure. I do partly agree with you though.  The best PM we never had was Jeremy Corbyn. 

 

No Labour PM kept his promises, they are all liars and hypocrites, Wilson, Callaghan, Blair and Brown, they were worse than any Tory PM, including Margaret Thatcher.

But if Jeremy Corbyn was genuinely for the working class, and kept his promises, then you would be right.

[placeholder]

57 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

"It would be fun to see Labour also fail in such an epic way!"  It sure would. Labour has never been the party of the working class in my adult lifetime. Now they have a "Sir" as it's leader and probable next PM.

Even the Tories have never had a "Sir" as a PM in my adult lifetime, and people with a "Sir" in front of their name are all stinking rich.

Does anyone really believe that this present "Sir" and leader of the Labour Party will do anything for the working class? If so they can dream on.

Well, I guess if you believe that the NHS would be in the same dire straits under Labour as it is under the Tories you have a point. But that seems very unlikely.

[NoshowJones]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, I guess if you believe that the NHS would be in the same dire straits under Labour as it is under the Tories you have a point. But that seems very unlikely.

They are all for themselves first, everything else including the health service comes before their own personal wealth.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

They are all for themselves first, everything else including the health service comes before their own personal wealth.

Haven't you got that the wrong way around ?

[NoshowJones]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Haven't you got that the wrong way around ?

Yes your right, I have got that the wrong way round. I will try and edit it.

I'm too late. but I think everyone knows what I mean.

Edited October 16, 2022 by possum1931

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

They are all for themselves first, everything else including the health service comes before their own personal wealth.

It's not enough to declare articles of faith. Provide some actual evidence that Labour has treated the NHS the way that the Tories have. Given the the NHS is one of the sources of electoral strength for Labour, your assertion makes no sense. But maybe it's enough to make it the basis of a minor religion.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Yes it does, all the western countries are in the same sinking currency ship.

Australia/NZ is even worse than the Uk, the EU about the same.

Haven't looked at Canada.

The AUD seems to have stabilized in a range 23.6 - 23.9 baht to the dollar.

I'm predicting it will come back to 24.5.

Australia exports iron ore, natural gas, food, and lithium. I'm not aware of the UK exporting anything, apart from its citizens.

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The AUD seems to have stabilized in a range 23.6 - 23.9 baht to the dollar.

I'm predicting it will come back to 24.5.

Australia exports iron ore, natural gas, food, and lithium. I'm not aware of the UK exporting anything, apart from its citizens.

I'm puzzled by its decline against the dollar, too, That said, if a big worldwide recession is coming, then a commodities exporter like Australia can expect to suffer. But that possible future doesn't explain what's happened in the past. Still, over the past 5 years it's up against the euro, the pound, and the yen. But down against the yuan.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I'm going to assume these are more unnamed sources from extreme left publications ?????

Nope, just sources whose reporting you can't refute, so you resort to your usual lazy tropes...

[RayC]

32 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Nothing about the cost of Covid19 or the war in Ukraine???

 

As I pointed out, we will not know the drawbacks or benefits of Brexit until the economy is back to pre Covid and pre war levels. Then we can talk.

 

The negative economic effects of the war in Ukraine, Covid restrictions and Brexit are completely separate issues and can be analysed independently.

 

The negative economic effects of Brexit have been happening since the UK voted to leave in 2016 as evidenced by the reports in the link which I posted: The lack of any reports detailing the economic benefits of Brexit since 2016 is also telling.

 

Whenever a Brexiter is challenged about the positive economic effects of Brexit, the answer is almost invariably that these benefits will be seen at some (undefined) point in the future. There is no evidence to support this claim. In this context, Covid - and latterly the war in Ukraine - are simply convenient events to hide behind. 

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, possum1931 said:

"It would be fun to see Labour also fail in such an epic way!"  It sure would. Labour has never been the party of the working class in my adult lifetime. Now they have a "Sir" as it's leader and probable next PM.

Even the Tories have never had a "Sir" as a PM in my adult lifetime, and people with a "Sir" in front of their name are all stinking rich.

Does anyone really believe that this present "Sir" and leader of the Labour Party will do anything for the working class? If so they can dream on.

Viscount Stansgate aka Tony Benn didn't count then?

[NoshowJones]

6 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Viscount Stansgate aka Tony Benn didn't count then?

Tony Benn used to write a weekly column in the Scottish Daily Record and started complaining about the working class taking two extra weeks holiday for a sore back while he and his colleagues got 3 months a year for their summer holidays alone.

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

 

The negative economic effects of the war in Ukraine, Covid restrictions and Brexit are completely separate issues and can be analysed independently.

 

The negative economic effects of Brexit have been happening since the UK voted to leave in 2016 as evidenced by the reports in the link which I posted: The lack of any reports detailing the economic benefits of Brexit since 2016 is also telling.

 

Whenever a Brexiter is challenged about the positive economic effects of Brexit, the answer is almost invariably that these benefits will be seen at some (undefined) point in the future. There is no evidence to support this claim. In this context, Covid - and latterly the war in Ukraine - are simply convenient events to hide behind. 

Are you accusing me of being a Brexiteer?

 

If you read my post I said both negatives and positives of Brexit are difficult to quantify because of other issues.

 

Didn't Covid affect government spending?

 

Didn't Covid decrease taxation collected by the government?

 

Didn't Covid affect output and production?

 

Didn't Covid affect imports and exports?

 

Hasn't the war in Ukraine affected imports?

 

Hasn't the war in Ukraine affected oil prices, gas prices and the price of heating homes?

 

 

[Bluespunk]

Great article on truss' disintegrating premiership and the aftermath of that disastrous press conference [which proved she cannot take hostile questioning - no wonder she dodged so many interviews during the leadership contest].

 

''Despite the mutinous mood, Truss had already signed up to address a meeting of the parliamentary party that evening. After an initial question praising the move to subsidise energy bills – including a plea to ensure the public actually knew about it – Truss was hit with a barrage of hostile questions over her economic plans.

 

The questions received more support than Truss’s answers. One northern MP asked her whether infrastructure projects that had increased in price would now be funded or scrapped. There was an awkward pause. “It obviously just dawned on her that these things are going to need more money – and they’re crucial to growth,” said an MP present.

 

The worst moment came when Robert Halfon told the prime minister her actions in the mini-budget – which caused market turmoil, an increase in mortgage bills and a collapse in political support – had undone a decade’s work.''

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/16/liz-truss-lost-authority-tory-party-prime-minister-conservative-mps-kwasi-kwarteng

[RayC]

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

Are you accusing me of being a Brexiteer?

I'm not accusing you of anything.

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

 

If you read my post I said both negatives and positives of Brexit are difficult to quantify because of other issues.

Yes, the effects of Brexit are difficult to quantify and other issues complicate matters but - to repeat myself - many reports indicate that Brexit has already had a negative economic effect on the UK.

 

If you disagree, then you should point out the flaws in these reports' methodologies and/or findings. 

 

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

 

Didn't Covid affect government spending?

It did

 

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

 

Didn't Covid decrease taxation collected by the government?

It did

 

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

 

Didn't Covid affect output and production?

It did

 

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

 

Didn't Covid affect imports and exports?

It did

 

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

 

Hasn't the war in Ukraine affected imports?

It has

 

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

 

Hasn't the war in Ukraine affected oil prices, gas prices and the price of heating homes?

It has

 

........

 

Hasn't Brexit adversely affected the value of sterling?

Hasn't Brexit increased the UK inflation rate?

Hasn't Brexit involved unnecessary government spending?

Hasn't Brexit meant increased UK government spending in some sectors e.g. farming?

Hasn't Brexit adversely affected the ability of UK companies and individuals to do business in the EU?

Hasn't Brexit adversely affected the labour market in some sectors of the UK economy?

 

Etc.

 

Etc.

 

[puchooay]

7 minutes ago, RayC said:

Hasn't Brexit adversely affected the value of sterling?

Hasn't Brexit increased the UK inflation rate?

Hasn't Brexit involved unnecessary government spending?

Hasn't Brexit meant increased UK government spending in some sectors e.g. farming?

Hasn't Brexit adversely affected the ability of UK companies and individuals to do business in the EU?

Hasn't Brexit adversely affected the labour market in some sectors of the UK economy?

 

Etc.

 

Etc.

Singularly? With no other outside factors? 

 

Difficult to say.

 

I agree that sterling was affected on the announcement of the result of the referendum. That was down to speculation as the UK had not left at that point. Therefore Brexit cannot be blamed.

 

As for the labour market. I have worked jobs with high levels of workers from EU. Most of them are still working in UK. In turn, when I asked them how difficult it was for them to stay after Brexit they replied it was not difficult at all, providing they had proof of salary, tax payments and NI payments. etc. Those that left the UK after Brexit obviously couldn't show the required documentation. I would say that was a good thing to come out of Brexit.

 

 

[RayC]

20 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Singularly? With no other outside factors? 

 

Difficult to say.

Once again, the onus is on you to disprove the methodology and/or findings of the reports that suggest that Brexit has had negative economic effects.

 

20 minutes ago, puchooay said:

 

I agree that sterling was affected on the announcement of the result of the referendum. That was down to speculation as the UK had not left at that point. Therefore Brexit cannot be blamed.

Whether it was speculation or market doubts about the long-term prospects of the UK economy is immaterial. As you admit, sterling was adversely affected by the result of the referendum therefore, by definition, Brexit was the reason for the reaction.

 

20 minutes ago, puchooay said:

 

As for the labour market. I have worked jobs with high levels of workers from EU. Most of them are still working in UK. In turn, when I asked them how difficult it was for them to stay after Brexit they replied it was not difficult at all, providing they had proof of salary, tax payments and NI payments. etc. Those that left the UK after Brexit obviously couldn't show the required documentation. I would say that was a good thing to come out of Brexit.

 

 

My own experience is the opposite. I worked in Belgium until 2018. Not only was my own situation - and the vast majority of Brits I knew - adversely affected by the referendum result, so too were many EU nationals, many of whom had job offers withdrawn. Moreover, the uncertainty about our status during negotiations - where both sides acted appallingly - not only affected us as individuals, but also had an adverse effect on business confidence.

 

However, our respective experience is no more than anecdotal evidence. The fact remains - as I have restated throughout - that research has indicated that Brexit has had a negative effect on the UK economy.

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, RayC said:

However, our respective experience is no more than anecdotal evidence. The fact remains - as I have restated throughout - that research has indicated that Brexit has had a negative effect on the UK economy.

Whether they are Brexit supporters or allegedly neutral, I've noticed their heavy reliance on anecdotal evidence. I don't understand why they think that such unconfirmable assertions are a valid way to support a case.

[puchooay]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Whether they are Brexit supporters or allegedly neutral, I've noticed their heavy reliance on anecdotal evidence. I don't understand why they think that such unconfirmable assertions are a valid way to support a case.

Because most people would accept personal experiences as truth and not make accusations suggesting otherwise. Only you and one other poster have a problem with my experiences. The rest of the posters are happy to accept them. 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by puchooay

[puchooay]

21 minutes ago, RayC said:

My own experience is the opposite. I worked in Belgium until 2018. Not only was my own situation - and the vast majority of Brits I knew - adversely affected by the referendum result, so too were many EU nationals, many of whom had job offers withdrawn. Moreover, the uncertainty about our status during negotiations - where both sides acted appallingly - not only affected us as individuals, but also had an adverse effect on business confidence

My experiences are of EU nationals working in UK after Brexit.

 

You appear to have attempted to nullify my experiences by using those of Brits and EU nationals in Belgium during Brexit negotiations. Strange.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

Singularly? With no other outside factors? 

 

Difficult to say.

 

I agree that sterling was affected on the announcement of the result of the referendum. That was down to speculation as the UK had not left at that point. Therefore Brexit cannot be blamed.

 

As for the labour market. I have worked jobs with high levels of workers from EU. Most of them are still working in UK. In turn, when I asked them how difficult it was for them to stay after Brexit they replied it was not difficult at all, providing they had proof of salary, tax payments and NI payments. etc. Those that left the UK after Brexit obviously couldn't show the required documentation. I would say that was a good thing to come out of Brexit.

 

 

The NHS lost over 10,000 Doctors, nurses and other health professionals who returned to Europe as a direct result of Brexit.

 

Are you claiming these people couldn’t meet the post Brexit criteria to stay?

 

Perhaps you can fortuitously recall a discussion with one of them to help your case. 

[puchooay]

33 minutes ago, RayC said:

As you admit, sterling was adversely affected by the result of the referendum therefore, by definition, Brexit was the reason for the reaction.

I believe your original posts regardingvthe UK economy were regarding UK post brexit. In that case, Brexit has not affected the value of the pound.

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Because most people would accept personal experiences as truth and not make accusations suggesting otherwise. Only you and one other poster have a problem with my experiences. The rest of the posters are happy to accept them. 

 

I don’t accept any claimed personal experiences that pop up in internet discussions in a timely manner to support the previously expressed views of the person suddenly remembering their experiences, especially the details of what would have to be complex personal circumstances related in past discussions.

 

I file them under, unsubstantiated.

[Bluespunk]

6 hours ago, proton said:

Bring back Boris is the solution

It really isn’t. 

[Bluespunk]

19 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Because most people would accept personal experiences as truth and not make accusations suggesting otherwise. Only you and one other poster have a problem with my experiences. The rest of the posters are happy to accept them. 

 

Just because some of us don’t post on them doesn’t mean we accept them. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Bluespunk
Typo

[puchooay]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I don’t accept any claimed personal experiences that pop up in internet discussions in a timely manner to support the previously expressed views of the person suddenly remembering their experiences, especially the details of what would have to be complex personal circumstances related in past discussions.

 

I file them under, unsubstantiated.

Yes. I know. You are one of the two I mentioned above.

[puchooay]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The NHS lost over 10,000 Doctors, nurses and other health professionals who returned to Europe as a direct result of Brexit.

 

Are you claiming these people couldn’t meet the post Brexit criteria to stay?

 

Perhaps you can fortuitously recall a discussion with one of them to help your case. 

I think you'll find they left after the referendum but prior to Brexit. Those that sat it out soon realised the settlement scheme was quite straight forward.