CC and Engine Power / Torque (Jaimaai's latest dumb question)

[JaiMaai]

2009 Honda City

1497 cc

120 PS

145 Nm

 

2022 Honda City

988 cc

122 PS

122 Nm

 

Both have similar weights.

 

This would suggest that despite a much lower engine capacity, the new Honda City's are at least as powerful (if not slightly better) than the older engines.  I appreciate that engine technology will have developed in the last decade but are 1.0l engines really that good now?

[Lacessit]

Small turbo-charged engines seem to be the way most vehicle manufacturers are going.

The Nissan Almera is another case in point, the 1 L turbo version which replaced the sluggish 1.5 L engine in the last year or so has far better acceleration.

[HauptmannUK]

The 1.0 Honda 'P10A' engine is one of a number of 1.0 litre 'turbo triples' that have been introduced over the last decade. They are small, light and efficient - although mostly don't live up to their advertised fuel economy.  Almost all of these engine have inferior long term reliability compared to the four cylinder normally-aspirated engines they replaced.

 

The Honda engine was in fact developed for Honda by FEV Group of Aachen, Germany.  It was not developed by Honda.  I don't know the situation in Thailand but in the UK and Europe some of these engines are failing at low mileage with serious damage. Personally I would not buy any Honda with the three cylinder turbo.  There are still bugs to be worked out.

 

[seedy]

If you want big power from small displacement then forced induction is the only way.

This stresses all mechanical components in the engine and drivetrain.

As has been posted above - don't expect these engines to have anywhere near the lifespan of a larger displacement naturally aspirated engine.

Manufacturers do this to reduce the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) number.

There is NO free lunch.

[JaiMaai]

3 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

The 1.0 Honda 'P10A' engine is one of a number of 1.0 litre 'turbo triples' that have been introduced over the last decade. They are small, light and efficient - although mostly don't live up to their advertised fuel economy.  Almost all of these engine have inferior long term reliability compared to the four cylinder normally-aspirated engines they replaced.

 

The Honda engine was in fact developed for Honda by FEV Group of Aachen, Germany.  It was not developed by Honda.  I don't know the situation in Thailand but in the UK and Europe some of these engines are failing at low mileage with serious damage. Personally I would not buy any Honda with the three cylinder turbo.  There are still bugs to be worked out.

 

 

46 minutes ago, seedy said:

If you want big power from small displacement then forced induction is the only way.

This stresses all mechanical components in the engine and drivetrain.

As has been posted above - don't expect these engines to have anywhere near the lifespan of a larger displacement naturally aspirated engine.

Manufacturers do this to reduce the CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) number.

There is NO free lunch.

So, basically it is too good to be true...?

 

Would these issues present themselves more or less on a car that was mostly driven in an urban environment with occasional trips of about 50-60 km on a highway?

[OneMoreFarang]

Modern 1000cc bikes have over 200HP. There is a lot of potential.

[seedy]

1 hour ago, JaiMaai said:

 

So, basically it is too good to be true...?

 

Would these issues present themselves more or less on a car that was mostly driven in an urban environment with occasional trips of about 50-60 km on a highway?

Dyno results will prove it to be true. There are Honda Civics with over 1000 HP, but at what cost ? Engine life.

If your criteria is urban, with 50-60 Km trips, then get something modest.

Suzuki Celerio starts at 338,000 THB for a new car with full warranty.

It ain't no luxury boat, but what do you need to sit in traffic half the time ?

Or spend the $$$ and go EV as this is the exact scenario they are good for.

[KhunLA]

Depends how you plan on using and driving it.  It's a family car.

 

More than enough engine/torque/hp for around town (30-60kph) or on the highway (90kph) in TH.

[JaiMaai]

It will mostly be an urban commuter/going to the supermarket car but will also be expected to do a couple of trips a year and cope with hills in Petchabun/Khao Yai type areas (with a full load of luggage).

[digbeth]

The smaller turbo engines does produce that number and is definitely more efficient

 

but what happens if it goes wrong? the turbo will be more highly stressed,

 

typical engine should last 10-15,000 km between service for at least oil change

 

general consensus for the new turbo engines like honda and nissan is that 10,000 kms between oil change is pushing it, and some the ones that has oil change light suggest changing the oil at around 7000km 

 

It's probably fine if the car comes with scheduled service plan for 3-5 years that its' under the warranty and you pay nothing for service.... but what if you typically keeps the car longer? 

 

fixing the turbo engine out of warranty could be very costly 

[kwilco]

CC as little to do with power.

It is the engine's ability to change fuel into ergs that is important. This is usually it's ability to efficiently burn gasoline by mixing it with oxygen.

 

There are characteristics in engines that are considered desirable such as the range of torque.

There is also the power to weight ration to consider.

 

European and Japanese cars have always tended to have smaller capacity than US engines yet they perform the US vehicles in almost every way.

 

In the last decade r so almost all car markets have reduced the engine size.

I remember a friend of mine thinking about buying a Fiesta in Thailand - the options included a 1.5 litre model and a 1 litre - the old boys kept advising my friend to buy the larger engines - however the smaller engined vehicle has higher horsepower and less weight and better fuel consumption.....coupled with good reiability the choice is a no-brainer.- in many countries they are also in a cheaper tax band

[KhunLA]

Our 2 Vios s (2001/2006) had no problems, anywhere in TH

Horsepower	107hp @ 6,000rpm
Torque	142Nm @ 4,200rpm

Same with our Mazda 2 (2012) no problem anywhere, didn't struggle at all on Phuket, at CM, or Khao Yai.

Power	100 hp @ 6,000 rpm
Torque	133Nm @ 4,000 rpm

 

Doubt if 122Nm would make much of a difference.

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by KhunLA

[petermik]

6 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Small turbo-charged engines seem to be the way most vehicle manufacturers are going.

The Nissan Almera is another case in point, the 1 L turbo version which replaced the sluggish 1.5 L engine in the last year or so has far better acceleration.

The previous Almera had a 1.2 litre engine not 1.5...

[HauptmannUK]

There is nothing inherently wrong with a 3 cylinder engine, apart from rather high out of balance forces (vibration).  3 cylinder naturally aspirated engines like the Suzuki K series, Mitsubishi 3A and Toyota's 3 cylinder (used in the Aygo) are amazingly reliable. The problem with these turbo triples is manufacturers have designed them for very high efficiency, light weight and very low production costs.  They are basically quite fragile.  Personally I am not a fan of how they drive since they are so reliant on the turbo for power. Before the turbo is boosting there is nothing there.

 

Considering specifically the three cylinder Honda engine, in order to get lowest weight, low internal losses and lowest cost, the designers decided to use a BIO (Belt in Oil) to drive the camshaft. This belt was supposed to last the 'lifetime' of the engine (10+ years).  However some belts started failing so Honda (in UK/EU at least) now specify a 5 or 6 year replacement interval.  Replacement is very involved and the price of the parts is very high.  Very few independent workshops with tackle this job so the dealer is probably the only option.  Honda UK's fixed price for this is £1599 (about ฿64000).  A costly job on a 5/6 year old car - many owners will probably skip it.

 

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/owners/repairs.html

 

It doesn't end there though - because these engines are designed to run very hot (maximum thermal efficiency) and have small coolant and oil capacities if they overheat even momentarily then lubrication very quickly breaks down and the engine is scrap.  These engines are not designed to be repaired and so a new engine has to be purchased.

 

My own view is avoid the small turbos. They've all had problems.  Most famously the Ford 1.0 Ecoboost (Ecoboom/Ecobust) - but I don't think that's sold in Thailand anymore.

[Lacessit]

17 minutes ago, petermik said:

The previous Almera had a 1.2 litre engine not 1.5...

IIRC, I was looking at the specs for a 2016 Almera, and it may not have been the Thai market version. Different engine sizes for export vehicles are quite common.

[DavisH]

55 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Our 2 Vios s (2001/2006) had no problems, anywhere in TH

Horsepower	107hp @ 6,000rpm
Torque	142Nm @ 4,200rpm

Same with our Mazda 2 (2012) no problem anywhere, didn't struggle at all on Phuket, at CM, or Khao Yai.

Power	100 hp @ 6,000 rpm
Torque	133Nm @ 4,000 rpm

 

Doubt if 122Nm would make much of a difference.

 

 

 

It's not 122NM actually. It's 173NM (about the same as the old 1.8 civic engine). My wife just got the city hatchback. It goes pretty well though I haven't pushed it at all. It surges forward suddenly it one is harsh with the accelerator. We had a swift 1.2 before and it destroys the swift in acceleration. Not too worried about longevity of the engine. It will barely do 7K kms between 6 month services anyway. 

[DavisH]

4 hours ago, JaiMaai said:

 

So, basically it is too good to be true...?

 

Would these issues present themselves more or less on a car that was mostly driven in an urban environment with occasional trips of about 50-60 km on a highway?

Try a suzuki swift if you just want to get around town with no fuss. Well maintained, the engine / drivetin lasts well over 250-300K kms. We jsut sold ours at 114k kms. We only changed the tires / battery / front brake pads / shocks (consumables) and air cond evaporator. Reliable and quite cheap to run. My wifes long term average fuel consumption (meter hadnt been reset for many 1000's kms) was 18.2km/l

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, DavisH said:

It's not 122NM actually. It's 173NM (about the same as the old 1.8 civic engine). My wife just got the city hatchback. It goes pretty well though I haven't pushed it at all. It surges forward suddenly it one is harsh with the accelerator. We had a swift 1.2 before and it destroys the swift in acceleration. Not too worried about longevity of the engine. It will barely do 7K kms between 6 month services anyway. 

The OP needs an edit ????