5 people are killed, at least 18 injured in a shooting at a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs

[Phoenix Rising]

5 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

The president said clearly he wanted to ban "semi automatic weapons". NOT "assault weapons"- he mentioned that much later.  At best he is confused, at worst misinformed.  What some call "assault weapons" are a small subset of firearms in general, and semi automatic firearms in particular.

 

It is a simple logic puzzle. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

                                            All assault weapons are semi-auto, but not all semi-auto weapons are assault weapons.

Semantics/digression. Easy access to assault/semi-automatic weapons in the US leads to thousands of unnecessary deaths.

End of story.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

The president said clearly he wanted to ban "semi automatic weapons". NOT "assault weapons"- he mentioned that much later.  At best he is confused, at worst misinformed.  What some call "assault weapons" are a small subset of firearms in general, and semi automatic firearms in particular.

 

It is a simple logic puzzle. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

                                            All assault weapons are semi-auto, but not all semi-auto weapons are assault weapons.

Oh dear now we're into comparing fruit. The pedantic's are being stretched to the max here.

 

An edited video and an article piece, which one, who cares? Assault weapon definition is what it is as already evidenced and his reasons for wanting them banned are admiral.

 

 

 

 

 

[bbi1]

On 11/21/2022 at 6:12 AM, Jingthing said:

If anyone is surprised by this, they really shouldn't be.

 

Not surprised at all. This is America. Shootings are a daily part of American life.

Edited November 25, 2022 by bbi1

[Hanaguma]

4 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Semantics/digression. Easy access to assault/semi-automatic weapons in the US leads to thousands of unnecessary deaths.

End of story.

Or not. Too many people bandy around phrases that often have no set meaning or definition. The weapon type that leads to the most deaths in the US is the pistol. Long guns (rifles, shotguns, assault whatevers etc) pale in comparison.

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Oh dear now we're into comparing fruit. The pedantic's are being stretched to the max here.

 

An edited video and an article piece, which one, who cares? Assault weapon definition is what it is as already evidenced and his reasons for wanting them banned are admiral.

 

 

 

 

 

As the video shows clearly, Joe said he wanted a ban on all semi-automatic weapons. Which is in no way either possible, or even part of any political platform of either party. Later he mentioned "assault-style rifles", whatever that means.  The press as usual is trying to cover for him by paraphrasing and massaging his actual words.  So did he mean it or not? 

 

As I said above, all long guns combined account for only a fraction of the gun deaths in the US. 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Hanaguma said:

As the video shows clearly, Joe said he wanted a ban on all semi-automatic weapons. Which is in no way either possible, or even part of any political platform of either party. Later he mentioned "assault-style rifles", whatever that means.  The press as usual is trying to cover for him by paraphrasing and massaging his actual words.  So did he mean it or not? 

 

As I said above, all long guns combined account for only a fraction of the gun deaths in the US. 

Nothing wrong with Biden wanting a ban on semi automatic weapons, their definition is clearly defined without the need for fruit. Even from an edited video and ignoring the article where it states automatic assault rifles.

 

Here's another definition from the same link, do you see how what they all say?

"In general, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms with a large magazine of ammunition that were designed and configured for rapid fire and combat use."

"The definition varies among regulating jurisdictions, but usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine, a pistol grip, and sometimes other features"

 

Their usage are increasing in mass shootings, he was referring to mass shootings. 

 

I think you are losing the plot entirely so I will leave that there with you as your logic is failing

[Hanaguma]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Nothing wrong with Biden wanting a ban on semi automatic weapons, their definition is clearly defined without the need for fruit. Even from an edited video and ignoring the article where it states automatic assault rifles.

 

Here's another definition from the same link, do you see how what they all say?

"In general, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms with a large magazine of ammunition that were designed and configured for rapid fire and combat use."

"The definition varies among regulating jurisdictions, but usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine, a pistol grip, and sometimes other features"

 

Their usage are increasing in mass shootings, he was referring to mass shootings. 

 

I think you are losing the plot entirely so I will leave that there with you as your logic is failing

Mass shootings get a lot of publicity, but in reality they do not make up more than a very small percentage of gun deaths or even homicides in the US.  The majority of murders are done with handguns, in cities, between individuals.  

 

And "assault weapons" generally are NOT configured for combat use. Assault rifles are.  They LOOK menacing to the untrained eye but are no more dangerous than any other semi automatic rifle.  Basically they are civilian, downpowered versions of military hardware. It is virtually impossible to acquire an actual fully automatic weapon in the US. 

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Mass shootings get a lot of publicity, but in reality they do not make up more than a very small percentage of gun deaths or even homicides in the US.  The majority of murders are done with handguns, in cities, between individuals.  

 

And "assault weapons" generally are NOT configured for combat use. Assault rifles are.  They LOOK menacing to the untrained eye but are no more dangerous than any other semi automatic rifle.  Basically they are civilian, downpowered versions of military hardware. It is virtually impossible to acquire an actual fully automatic weapon in the US. 

Quite rightly, hopefully mass shootings will carry on getting a lot of publicity and Biden helped that along with his call to ban semi automatic assault rifles. 

 

"Thankfully, weapons typically referred to as assault weapons or modern sporting rifles are not used in the majority of firearm homicides. However, when they are used, they have an outsized impact on injury and death."

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/download/testimony-hunter-2022-07-20

[ozimoron]

25 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Mass shootings get a lot of publicity, but in reality they do not make up more than a very small percentage of gun deaths or even homicides in the US.  The majority of murders are done with handguns, in cities, between individuals.  

 

And "assault weapons" generally are NOT configured for combat use. Assault rifles are.  They LOOK menacing to the untrained eye but are no more dangerous than any other semi automatic rifle.  Basically they are civilian, downpowered versions of military hardware. It is virtually impossible to acquire an actual fully automatic weapon in the US. 

What the gun nuts don't get with arguments like these is that mass shootings are mostly motivated by animus, not robbery or some such reason. Their victims are random, hence the horror. Furthermore, they ALMOST ALWAYS involve AR-15's which have become an icon for the crazies.

 

Do you know why so many mass shooting victims die instead of just being wounded? Find out what an AR-15 round does to your internal organs when they hit. This is why doctors hate them.

 

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/974671

 

Moore said a 9-millimeter handgun has a muzzle energy – the kinetic energy of a bullet as it leaves the gun’s muzzle – of roughly 400 foot-pounds of force. For a rifle like the AR-15, that number is 1,300. “So you have a huge increase in the amount of energy imparted from the gun,” he explained.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/08/health/gun-violence-human-body-damage-gupta/index.html

 

'Organs look like overripe melons smashed by a sledgehammer': Florida radiologist reveals devastating effects AR-15 bullets had on Parkland school shooting victims and calls for ban on assault-style rifles

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5424197/Radiologist-reveals-effects-AR-15-bullets-human-body.html

 

"In a typical handgun injury, which I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ such as the liver," Heather Sher, a radiologist who treated victims of the Parkland shooting in 2018, wrote in The Atlantic. "To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, gray bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments."

But when she looked at a CT scan from one of the Parkland victims, who was shot by an AR-15-style rifle, "the organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, and was bleeding extensively." She was amazed at how a gunshot wound could cause so much damage.

 

https://www.salon.com/2022/07/12/ar-15-style-rifles-doctor-perspective/

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

What the gun nuts don't get with arguments like these is that mass shootings are mostly motivated by animus, not robbery or some such reason. Their victims are random, hence the horror. Furthermore, they ALMOST ALWAYS involve AR-15's which have become an icon for the crazies.

 

Do you know why so many mass shooting victims die instead of just being wounded? Find out what an AR-15 round does to your internal organs when they hit. This is why doctors hate them.

That's right. Just like the shooting in this story. Five fatalities, 25 injured. Oh wait.............

 

I am not a gun nut. I don't own one, and don't want one. Just like to stick to facts without hyperbole.  On mass shootings, they account for very few murders in the US, compared to domestic violence or crime. Also, more than half of mass shootings in the US are done with handguns only. 

 

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/gun-facts-and-fiction/mass-shootings/

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

 

Don't buy the media/political narrative without getting the facts. 

[Hanaguma]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Quite rightly, hopefully mass shootings will carry on getting a lot of publicity and Biden helped that along with his call to ban semi automatic assault rifles. 

 

"Thankfully, weapons typically referred to as assault weapons or modern sporting rifles are not used in the majority of firearm homicides. However, when they are used, they have an outsized impact on injury and death."

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/download/testimony-hunter-2022-07-20

You can give mass shootings all the publicity in the world and it won't make a dent in the overall crime rate or homicide rate.  Politicians need to make policy based on facts, not emotions. Assault/sporting rifles are used in 3% of firarm murders (see Pew Research link in above post).  Makes no sense to focus on something that is not the problem.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

That's right. Just like the shooting in this story. Five fatalities, 25 injured. Oh wait.............

 

I am not a gun nut. I don't own one, and don't want one. Just like to stick to facts without hyperbole.  On mass shootings, they account for very few murders in the US, compared to domestic violence or crime. Also, more than half of mass shootings in the US are done with handguns only. 

 

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/gun-facts-and-fiction/mass-shootings/

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

 

Don't buy the media/political narrative without getting the facts. 

I think gave you plenty of "The Facts" above. You quote the gun freak lobby as "facts"? Get a grip please.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You can give mass shootings all the publicity in the world and it won't make a dent in the overall crime rate or homicide rate.  Politicians need to make policy based on facts, not emotions. Assault/sporting rifles are used in 3% of firarm murders (see Pew Research link in above post).  Makes no sense to focus on something that is not the problem.

It will help stop crazies with assault weapons that cause an outsized impact on injury and death.

[Hanaguma]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I thinkI gave you plenty of "The Facts" above. You quote the gun freak lobby as "facts"? Get a grip please.

What facts were those?

Do you not like Pew Research or the FBI- are they gun freak lobbies?

 

If you have any facts refuting what I cited, please present them.

 

Here is USA Today, hardly gun freaks. They say that people killed in public mass shootings amount to around 50 per year. Tragic but a small fraction of crime in a country of 300 million plus people. And that most are committed with handguns. 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2022/08/18/mass-killings-database-us-events-since-2006/9705311002/ 

 

So, very few people are killed in public shootings by long guns.  Why obsess about it?

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

It will help stop crazies with assault weapons that cause an outsized impact on injury and death.

Correct, the death and serious injury rate would definitely be reduced significantly. There's no denying that. The problem for the AR-15 is that it has become like the confederate flag, a symbol of far right wing hate. Just carrying these things around in public is way more menacing than any other weapon because the public understand that the danger from the person carrying the gun is much greater than some cowboy carrying a colt .45.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

So, very few people are killed in public shootings by long guns.  Why obsess about it?

So, no big deal that they cause far greater and more traumatic injuries and death than any other weapon?

 

The total of deaths is reflected by the greater number of concealable handguns carried in public. The nature of the deaths is not. Nor is the motivation for carrying them.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hanaguma]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

It will help stop crazies with assault weapons that cause an outsized impact on injury and death.

Except that they simply don't.  The statistics are clear. 

 

"Crazies with assault weapons" are a vanishingly rare type of crime that gets too much publicity due to the potential to make political hay from them. 

 

See the link above for details. 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Except that they simply don't.  The statistics are clear. 

 

"Crazies with assault weapons" are a vanishingly rare type of crime that gets too much publicity due to the potential to make political hay from them. 

 

See the link above for details. 

Until they actually do "vanish" politicians and others will make continue to speak out against these killing machines which are specifically designed to kill humans at close range.

 

You're coming across as a rabid right wing gun nut with those comments. There's no rational debate in favour of not banning AR-15's.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

What facts were those?

Do you not like Pew Research or the FBI- are they gun freak lobbies?

 

If you have any facts refuting what I cited, please present them.

 

Here is USA Today, hardly gun freaks. They say that people killed in public mass shootings amount to around 50 per year. Tragic but a small fraction of crime in a country of 300 million plus people. And that most are committed with handguns. 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2022/08/18/mass-killings-database-us-events-since-2006/9705311002/ 

 

So, very few people are killed in public shootings by long guns.  Why obsess about it?

 

 

 

Mass shootings in the US: 2022 could be the second-highest year

So far in November, there have been at least 32 mass shootings across the nation resulting in more than 177 people shot and 43 dead. For the month of November 2021 through the 22nd, there were 36 mass shootings, resulting in 160 people shot, leaving 34 of those people dead.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

Mass shootings in the US: 2022 could be the second-highest year

So far in November, there have been at least 32 mass shootings across the nation resulting in more than 177 people shot and 43 dead. For the month of November 2021 through the 22nd, there were 36 mass shootings, resulting in 160 people shot, leaving 34 of those people dead.

Mass shootings are triple what they were in 2013 and rising every year

 

"The general public views mass shooters as people who are totally crazy, insane. It fits with the idea of snapping, as if these people are totally detached from reality."

That's not the case, he said. There's "a very rational thought process" that goes into planning and carrying out mass shootings.

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/15/1099008586/mass-shootings-us-2022-tally-number

 

https://abc7.com/texas-school-shooting-uvalde-nra-gun-control/11894196/

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

So, no big deal that they cause far greater and more traumatic injuries and death than any other weapon?

Not "no big deal", but when dealing with big picture issues not relevant. It is all about statistics, not individual cases. Plus, comparing handguns and rifles in general is nonsense.  Compare like to like. Assault weapons vs "normal" rifles.  

[Hanaguma]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Until they actually do "vanish" politicians and others will make continue to speak out against these killing machines which are specifically designed to kill humans at close range.

 

You're coming across as a rabid right wing gun nut with those comments. There's no rational debate in favour of not banning AR-15's.

Yes there is. 

 

Notwithstanding the basic constitutional argument.  They simply are not a major factor in crime or murder when compared to other weapons. But they ARE a political football. I can tell by the hyperbolic language you use when describing them that this is an emotional issue for you, one in which facts and statistics do not have much meaning. 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Yes there is. 

 

Notwithstanding the basic constitutional argument.  They simply are not a major factor in crime or murder when compared to other weapons. But they ARE a political football. I can tell by the hyperbolic language you use when describing them that this is an emotional issue for you, one in which facts and statistics do not have much meaning. 

Are deaths a political football? Nothing could be less partisan except for the GOP's predilection for violence. Are gun deaths not emotional for you?

[Hanaguma]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Are deaths a political football? Nothing could be less partisan except for the GOP's predilection for violence. Are gun deaths not emotional for you?

No, they are not.  Not when discussing effective policy solutions. Emotions need to be left out.  The USA Today article stated 2,700 mass shooting fatalities since 2006. Or about 130 per year. Of course it is tragic. But compared to the 20,000 overall firearms homicides per year, a small number.  How about concentrating energy and resources on getting the 20,000 down to 10,000 instead of the 130 down to zero?

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

No, they are not.  Not when discussing effective policy solutions. Emotions need to be left out.  The USA Today article stated 2,700 mass shooting fatalities since 2006. Or about 130 per year. Of course it is tragic. But compared to the 20,000 overall firearms homicides per year, a small number.  How about concentrating energy and resources on getting the 20,000 down to 10,000 instead of the 130 down to zero?

The salient point is the number of deaths and injuries from a single attack. I think I'll just let you keep digging your own hole.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Mass shootings are triple what they were in 2013 and rising every year

 

"The general public views mass shooters as people who are totally crazy, insane. It fits with the idea of snapping, as if these people are totally detached from reality."

That's not the case, he said. There's "a very rational thought process" that goes into planning and carrying out mass shootings.

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/15/1099008586/mass-shootings-us-2022-tally-number

 

https://abc7.com/texas-school-shooting-uvalde-nra-gun-control/11894196/

Just as one example Uvalde would not have had as many children killed had it not been for the AR 15

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Just as one example Uvalde would not have had as many children killed had it not been for the AR 15

Remember the guy in LV(?), shooting from a hotel room? Try doing that with a hand gun.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Just as one example Uvalde would not have had as many children killed had it not been for the AR 15

Nonsense. There is literally no way to prove that. He could have just as easily used a handgun or two.  Like the killer at Virginia Tech 15 years ago- he killed 32 people with two handguns.

 

Or a shotgun. Or a combination. Like most mass shooters do.  There is nothing mystical or demonic about semi automatic rifles.  Again you are letting feelings get in the way of facts. 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nonsense. There is literally no way to prove that. He could have just as easily used a handgun or two.  Like the killer at Virginia Tech 15 years ago- he killed 32 people with two handguns.

 

Or a shotgun. Or a combination. Like most mass shooters do.  There is nothing mystical or demonic about semi automatic rifles.  Again you are letting feelings get in the way of facts. 

So totally abaft of the beam, demonstrating nothing more than you don't read links provided for your edification.

Edited November 25, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hanaguma]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Remember the guy in LV(?), shooting from a hotel room? Try doing that with a hand gun.

Lone idiot again not statistically relevant. He could have walked through the crowd with handguns and had the same result. But again, policy and law cannot be made based on exceptions.