More refreshing (and surprising) honesty from mainstream media.

[Eleftheros]

Thank you for the honest answer. Perhaps you could supply another one.

 

Do you believe, as you suggest, that everyone who chose not to get vaccinated belongs to 'the bullheaded conspiracy theory bunch'?

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, Eleftheros said:

I'm inclined to think you're not being serious, as everyone over the age of 10 has heard of "vaccine mandates" and "vaccine passports".

 

For one example out of many, the unvaccinated citizens of Western Australia were specifically banned from entering hotels, restaurants and gymnasiums, Canadians from all forms of public transport, Greeks faced a monthly fine, and Austrian unvaccinated people were subjected to lockdowns.

 

None of this is new, or secret. It happened worldwide and was publicized worldwide. It is also clearly illegal under international law.

 

As the Nuremberg Code puts it : "The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion."

That was then, this is now, you said:

 

"... and for those who don't want one to be forced to have one, two, and then three, or lose their jobs, face a monthly fine, or be barred from public spaces ....."

 

1. So I will ask you which country is banning people from going to public spaces?

 

2. There are few countries that still have vaccine mandates, which is not forcing people at all but making it a condition of employment. If at this present time you don't want to be vaccinated then just  chose not to be a doctor or nurse in a health care setting. How is that forcing?

 

Its been that way for years in the US military.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Eleftheros]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

That was then, this is now, you said:

 

"... and for those who don't want one to be forced to have one, two, and then three, or lose their jobs, face a monthly fine, or be barred from public spaces ....."

 

1. So I will ask you which country is banning people from going to public spaces?

 

2. There are few countries that still have vaccine mandates, which is not forcing people at tall but making it a condition of employment. If at this present time you don't want to be vaccinated then just to chose to be a doctor or nurse in a health care setting. How is that forcing?

You just don't read what other people post, do you? Leaving aside the employment angle, several countries and territories banned the unvaccinated from normal day-to-day activities. Austria banned them from all public spaces by forcing them to remain in their houses under lockdown.

 

You are trying to defend the indefensible on this one.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Eleftheros said:

You just don't read what other people post, do you? Leaving aside the employment angle, several countries and territories banned the unvaccinated from normal day-to-day activities. Austria banned them from all public spaces by forcing them to remain in their houses under lockdown.

 

You are trying to defend the indefensible on this one.

Again your claim:

 

"... and for those who don't want one to be forced to have one, two, and then three, or lose their jobs, face a monthly fine, or be barred from public spaces ....."

 

Which country banned you from public spaces? Lockdowns did not distinguish between whether you were vaccinated or not. 

 

This is about vaccines not lockdowns

 

 

[Eleftheros]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Again your claim:

 

"... and for those who don't want one to be forced to have one, two, and then three, or lose their jobs, face a monthly fine, or be barred from public spaces ....."

 

Which country banned you from public spaces? Lockdowns did not distinguish between whether you were vaccinated or not. 

 

This is about vaccines not lockdowns

 

 

Western Australia banned "me" (that is, anyone) from going into hotels, gymnasiums, or restaurants if I was unvaccinated. Those are public spaces by any sensible definition, as are trains, buses and other modes of transport (Canada banned the unvaccinated from those.) Austria (for the third time of writing) banned me from going to any public space at all if I was unvaccinated by forcing me into lockdown in my house.

 

I'm not going to write this stuff down again, it's obviously not penetrating at your end.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, Eleftheros said:

Western Australia banned "me" (that is, anyone) from going into hotels, gymnasiums, or restaurants if I was unvaccinated. Those are public spaces by any sensible definition, as are trains, buses and other modes of transport (Canada banned the unvaccinated from those.) Austria (for the third time of writing) banned me from going to any public space at all if I was unvaccinated by forcing me into lockdown in my house.

 

I'm not going to write this stuff down again, it's obviously not penetrating at your end.

 

 

Are you still banned from all these places? Considering what you said:

 

"... and for those who don't want one to be forced to have one, two, and then three, or lose their jobs, face a monthly fine, or be barred from public spaces ....."

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Eleftheros said:

I'm inclined to think you're not being serious, as everyone over the age of 10 has heard of "vaccine mandates" and "vaccine passports".

 

For one example out of many, the unvaccinated citizens of Western Australia were specifically banned from entering hotels, restaurants and gymnasiums, Canadians from all forms of public transport, Greeks faced a monthly fine, and Austrian unvaccinated people were subjected to lockdowns.

 

None of this is new, or secret. It happened worldwide and was publicized worldwide. It is also clearly illegal under international law.

 

As the Nuremberg Code puts it : "The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion."

Really. So school mandates for children to be vaccinated are violations of the Nuremberg code? Such nonsense.

[rattlesnake]

6 hours ago, pomchop said:

i believe that vaccines saved many lives and reduced the severity of outcomes for millions of people....if you chose to refuse it that is your problem but wouldn't it be better to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. 

 

I had two good friends who "did their research"  a lot of which was listening to fox "news" and BS conspiracy theory it's a chinese hoax idiots who were convinced they knew more than the scientists...both refused covid vaccines...both were healthy active guys...both died horrible deaths with tubes stuck down their throats...both their wives got shots and did not get covid.  So yes i do believe that vaccine mandates were necessary to get the bullheaded conspiracy theory bunch to protect themselves and their families if that is what it takes.

Fox News was pro-vaccine at the time of the rollout so you've got that one wrong.

 

If their wives didn't get Covid it has nothing to do with them being jabbed as the "vaccine" doesn't prevent transmission or contraction.

https://www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/detail/state-board-of-health-to-vote-on-whether-to-require-a-covid-19-vaccination-for-school-children-on-april-13

The vaccines also do not prevent transmission or contraction of the virus, making the benefit of such a requirement unclear.

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Fox News was pro-vaccine at the time of the rollout so you've got that one wrong.

 

If their wives didn't get Covid it has nothing to do with them being jabbed as the "vaccine" doesn't prevent transmission or contraction.

https://www.washingtonpolicy.org/publications/detail/state-board-of-health-to-vote-on-whether-to-require-a-covid-19-vaccination-for-school-children-on-april-13

The vaccines also do not prevent transmission or contraction of the virus, making the benefit of such a requirement unclear.

I can't believe how low you'll got to come up with supposed evidence. Here is information about the author of what you linked to:

"Elizabeth Hovde grew up in Seattle's Ballard neighborhood and graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree in journalism and political science from Western Washington University. That's where her newspaper career began, writing political opinion columns for The Bellingham Herald. "

Why would you believe that the views of a  person with her lack of qualifications would carry even a scintilla of scientific weight?

[Bkk Brian]

16 hours ago, pomchop said:

i believe that vaccines saved many lives and reduced the severity of outcomes for millions of people....if you chose to refuse it that is your problem but wouldn't it be better to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. 

 

I had two good friends who "did their research"  a lot of which was listening to fox "news" and BS conspiracy theory it's a chinese hoax idiots who were convinced they knew more than the scientists...both refused covid vaccines...both were healthy active guys...both died horrible deaths with tubes stuck down their throats...both their wives got shots and did not get covid.  So yes i do believe that vaccine mandates were necessary to get the bullheaded conspiracy theory bunch to protect themselves and their families if that is what it takes.

If they were listening to Tucker Carlson then its not surprising. He was openly bragging about be unvaccinated:

 

Interesting stats and studies in this article:

 

How Many Republicans Died Because the GOP Turned Against Vaccines?

Party leaders are unquestionably complicit in the premature deaths of their own supporters.

Unfortunately, this trend shows no signs of breaking. The anti-science messaging that fuels such a divide is popular with Republican leaders because it plays so well with their constituents. Far-right crowds cheer for missed vaccine targets and jokes about executing scientific leaders. In an environment where partisanship trumps all—including trying to save people’s lives—such messaging is both politically effective and morally abhorrent.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/12/covid-deaths-anti-vaccine-republican-voters/672575/

[rattlesnake]

12 hours ago, placeholder said:

I can't believe how low you'll got to come up with supposed evidence. Here is information about the author of what you linked to:

"Elizabeth Hovde grew up in Seattle's Ballard neighborhood and graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree in journalism and political science from Western Washington University. That's where her newspaper career began, writing political opinion columns for The Bellingham Herald. "

Why would you believe that the views of a  person with her lack of qualifications would carry even a scintilla of scientific weight?

Isn't that what journalists do? Report what scientists say? That the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission is an established fact, confirmed by Dr Phelps.

 

Also confirmed by the one and only Rochelle Walensky, perhaps you will deem her more "credible":

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-director-covid-vaccines-cant-prevent-transmission-anymore/ar-AASDndg

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore

[placeholder]

26 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Isn't that what journalists do? Report what scientists say? That the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission is an established fact, confirmed by Dr Phelps.

 

Also confirmed by the one and only Rochelle Walensky, perhaps you will deem her more "credible":

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-director-covid-vaccines-cant-prevent-transmission-anymore/ar-AASDndg

CDC Director: Covid vaccines can't prevent transmission anymore

Well, if a journalist is to report what a scientist or scientists say, she had better quote that scientist or scientists. Otherwise it's not reporting, it's editorializing. And she clearly doesn't have the qualifications to do that.

Yes, that's what Walensky said back when.

But there's recent evidence that vaccination does reduce transmission.

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/new-research-proves-covid-19-vaccines-can-slow-spread-disease-even-omicron

And Wallensky also said the vaccine is highly effective at preventing serious symptoms and death.

And, of course there is massive and overwhelming evidence that vaccinations drastically reduce death rates. Do I really need to cite that evidence again?

I'm not sure why you're citing Dr. Phelps as an authority on Covid. Is she a virologist or epidemiologist? But if you do accept her authority, then I'm also sure that you agree with her on the need for better masks.

[rattlesnake]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, if a journalist is to report what a scientist or scientists say, she had better quote that scientist or scientists. Otherwise it's not reporting, it's editorializing. And she clearly doesn't have the qualifications to do that.

Yes, that's what Walensky said back when.

But there's recent evidence that vaccination does reduce transmission.

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/new-research-proves-covid-19-vaccines-can-slow-spread-disease-even-omicron

And Wallensky also said the vaccine is highly effective at preventing serious symptoms and death.

And, of course there is massive and overwhelming evidence that vaccinations drastically reduce death rates. Do I really need to cite that evidence again?

I'm not sure why you're citing Dr. Phelps as an authority on Covid. Is she a virologist or epidemiologist? But if you do accept her authority, then I'm also sure that you agree with her on the need for better masks.

Dr. Phelps is a member OzSAGE, "a multi-disciplinary network of Australian experts from a broad range of sectors relevant to the well-being of the Australian population during and after the COVID-19 pandemic", I think it is safe to assume any statement she makes on Covid is backed by scientists.

 

I will not go into a mask debate as this topic is about vaccine injuries and their cover-up.

[placeholder]

8 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Dr. Phelps is a member OzSAGE, "a multi-disciplinary network of Australian experts from a broad range of sectors relevant to the well-being of the Australian population during and after the COVID-19 pandemic", I think it is safe to assume any statement she makes on Covid is backed by scientists.

 

I will not go into a mask debate as this topic is about vaccine injuries and their cover-up.

Well, then, if you're going to assert OzSage's expertise, how do you explain this away?

9. Lack of urgency on boosters
Two doses of vaccine provides minimal protection against Omicron and wanes rapidly against Delta. While the changes to Atagi guidelines for bringing forward the timing of boosters from “a minimum of three months” after 31 January are welcome, the lack of urgency in delivering boosters will allow both Delta and Omicron to spread. In Victoria, state-administered vaccines have fallen dramatically despite the need for urgent action.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/30/the-ozsage-report-10-key-points-from-its-critique-of-australias-covid-response

 

[Rimmer]

Posts from an unapproved source have been removed also replies

[rattlesnake]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Well, then, if you're going to assert OzSage's expertise, how do you explain this away?

9. Lack of urgency on boosters
Two doses of vaccine provides minimal protection against Omicron and wanes rapidly against Delta. While the changes to Atagi guidelines for bringing forward the timing of boosters from “a minimum of three months” after 31 January are welcome, the lack of urgency in delivering boosters will allow both Delta and Omicron to spread. In Victoria, state-administered vaccines have fallen dramatically despite the need for urgent action.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/30/the-ozsage-report-10-key-points-from-its-critique-of-australias-covid-response

 

That article is one year old, here is a more recent statement from OzSAGE:

 

OzSAGE Calls for Broader COVID Strategy

"Australia has relied on a vaccine-only strategy to date. Vaccination alone does not adequately prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2, and the impact on health and disability services of repeated infections is yet unknown."

https://tasmaniantimes.com/2022/06/ozsage-calls-for-broader-covid-strategy/

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by rattlesnake

[Bkk Brian]

17 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

That article is one year old, here is a more recent statement from OzSAGE:

 

OzSAGE Calls for Broader COVID Strategy

"Australia has relied on a vaccine-only strategy to date. Vaccination alone does not adequately prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2, and the impact on health and disability services of repeated infections is yet unknown."

https://tasmaniantimes.com/2022/06/ozsage-calls-for-broader-covid-strategy/

 

Seeing as your go to credible source is now OzSAGE a pro vaccine org then here are a couple that are even more recent than the above:

 

Dec 20th OzSAGE says “avoid decking the halls with COVID-19 folly”

– Vaccinate children aged 6 months to 5 years

– Provide bivalent boosters to anyone who has not had a COVID-19 vaccine in the last six months

– Mandate clean air indoors, and mask wearing in specific high-risk locations

– Widen access to ongoing testing for COVID-19

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/ozsage-christmas/

 

Nov 29th Long covid – OzSAGE makes detailed submission to the Parliamentary Inquiry

Vaccination can reduce the risk of a person developing long COVID and other serious post-acute sequelae of COVID-19. The extent of protection remains uncertain, with estimates ranging from 15 to 41%, indicating less than half of cases of long COVID are prevented through vaccination. A vaccine-only pandemic strategy is insufficient to protect Australians from long COVID and repeat SARS-CoV-2 infections, particularly when, without action, high numbers of infections will continue to occur. 

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/long-covid-ozsage-makes-detailed-submission-to-the-parliamentary-inquiry/

 

 

Open Letter to National Cabinet from OzSAGE – 13 Dec 2022

We urge Australian governments to look again at the evidence of excess disease, disability and death and to opt for a Vaccines-Plus approach that will ultimately lead to better health, economic and social outcomes.

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/open-letter-13-dec-2022/

[rattlesnake]

43 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Seeing as your go to credible source is now OzSAGE a pro vaccine org then here are a couple that are even more recent than the above:

 

Dec 20th OzSAGE says “avoid decking the halls with COVID-19 folly”

– Vaccinate children aged 6 months to 5 years

– Provide bivalent boosters to anyone who has not had a COVID-19 vaccine in the last six months

– Mandate clean air indoors, and mask wearing in specific high-risk locations

– Widen access to ongoing testing for COVID-19

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/ozsage-christmas/

 

Nov 29th Long covid – OzSAGE makes detailed submission to the Parliamentary Inquiry

Vaccination can reduce the risk of a person developing long COVID and other serious post-acute sequelae of COVID-19. The extent of protection remains uncertain, with estimates ranging from 15 to 41%, indicating less than half of cases of long COVID are prevented through vaccination. A vaccine-only pandemic strategy is insufficient to protect Australians from long COVID and repeat SARS-CoV-2 infections, particularly when, without action, high numbers of infections will continue to occur. 

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/long-covid-ozsage-makes-detailed-submission-to-the-parliamentary-inquiry/

 

 

Open Letter to National Cabinet from OzSAGE – 13 Dec 2022

We urge Australian governments to look again at the evidence of excess disease, disability and death and to opt for a Vaccines-Plus approach that will ultimately lead to better health, economic and social outcomes.

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/open-letter-13-dec-2022/

"Credible" is not the word I would use to describe OzSAGE, but we have established their statements are aligned on the current scientific doxa, as are Dr. Phelps', who doesn't just make wild unsubsantiated claims as I believe was implied earlier when I cited her regarding the inefficacy of vaccines with regard to Covid transmission.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, rattlesnake said:

"Credible" is not the word I would use to describe OzSAGE, but we have established their statements are aligned on the current scientific doxa, as are Dr. Phelps', who doesn't just make wild unsubsantiated claims as I believe was implied earlier when I cited her regarding the inefficacy of vaccines with regard to Covid transmission.

If you don't think they are credible why link to them for your arguments?

 

OzSAGE's core belief are vaccines as the absolute with other health measures as a must. ie their mission: "Vaccine-Plus"

 

Dr Phelps has actively linked to OzSAGE statements in her personal submission as a reference. Being an executive member.

 

[rattlesnake]

29 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

If you don't think they are credible why link to them for your arguments?

 

OzSAGE's core belief are vaccines as the absolute with other health measures as a must. ie their mission: "Vaccine-Plus"

 

Dr Phelps has actively linked to OzSAGE statements in her personal submission as a reference. Being an executive member.

 

Again, I mentioned them as proof that Dr. Phelps was not making wild claims on vaccine failure on transmission, but basing them on the current scientific doxa.

[Bkk Brian]

44 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Again, I mentioned them as proof that Dr. Phelps was not making wild claims on vaccine failure on transmission, but basing them on the current scientific doxa.

Nobody claimed she was making wild claims. We all know that vaccines do not prevent transmission 100%. Just like the flu vaccine. However as linked above in the Gavi study they can help reduce transmission. Dr Phelps was just making the same point in her submission that its still possible for breakthrough infections be that with vaccine induced break through or a repeated covid only induced break through. Claiming they do not stop transmission is not the same as they do have no affect whatsoever.

 

Covid vaccines help prevent deaths and serious disease but they do not always stop it.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[rattlesnake]

47 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Nobody claimed she was making wild claims. We all know that vaccines do not prevent transmission 100%. Just like the flu vaccine. However as linked above in the Gavi study they can help reduce transmission. Dr Phelps was just making the same point in her submission that its still possible for breakthrough infections be that with vaccine induced break through or a repeated covid only induced break through. Claiming they do not stop transmission is not the same as they do have no affect whatsoever.

 

Covid vaccines help prevent deaths and serious disease but they do not always stop it.

 

 

I was responding to this by another poster:

"I'm not sure why you're citing Dr. Phelps as an authority on Covid. Is she a virologist or epidemiologist?"

 

Which was a response to this by myself:

"That the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission is an established fact, confirmed by Dr Phelps."

 

I think we can move on now.

[Bkk Brian]

26 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I was responding to this by another poster:

"I'm not sure why you're citing Dr. Phelps as an authority on Covid. Is she a virologist or epidemiologist?"

 

Which was a response to this by myself:

"That the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission is an established fact, confirmed by Dr Phelps."

 

I think we can move on now.

So it wasn't a case of a wild claim accusation made by the poster, just a question 

 

A good question as Dr Phelps is not a virologist as stated on her personal submission:

 

"I will leave it to the virologists to explain why it is exceptional from a virology point of view"

 

Her statement that it does not stop transmission should really be it helps reduce transmission but does not stop it. (that according to latest studies)

Edited December 28, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

On 12/28/2022 at 2:24 PM, rattlesnake said:

"Credible" is not the word I would use to describe OzSAGE, but we have established their statements are aligned on the current scientific doxa, as are Dr. Phelps', who doesn't just make wild unsubsantiated claims as I believe was implied earlier when I cited her regarding the inefficacy of vaccines with regard to Covid transmission.

And what is there in OzSage or Dr. Phelps' stances that say the risk of vaccine injury outweighs the risk of getting vaccincated? They have both stated that they are for stricter measures in addition to vaccination.

[rattlesnake]

44 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And what is there in OzSage or Dr. Phelps' stances that say the risk of vaccine injury outweighs the risk of getting vaccincated? They have both stated that they are for stricter measures in addition to vaccination.

I think we have covered this, of course we can discuss details but I would rather get back to the topic. It's about censorship regarding Covid vaccine injuries and the political pressure on doctors to not diclose them. This warrants extensive investigation and of course it means there could be a lot of unreported injuries, not taken into account in official statistics, which could change a lot of conclusions regarding safety.

 

I think Dr. Phelps' testimony in this respect is credible, do you?

Edited December 29, 2022 by rattlesnake

[Bkk Brian]

19 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I think we have covered this, of course we can discuss details but I would rather get back to the topic. It's about censorship regarding Covid vaccine injuries and the political pressure on doctors to not diclose them. This warrants extensive investigation and of course it means there could be a lot of unreported injuries, not taken into account in official statistics, which could change a lot of conclusions regarding safety.

 

I think Dr. Phelps' testimony in this respect is credible, do you?

The topic is about Dr Phelps submission which covers many items not just the paragraph on more transparent reporting and Doctors being able to better relay any concerns they may have.

[placeholder]

49 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I think we have covered this, of course we can discuss details but I would rather get back to the topic. It's about censorship regarding Covid vaccine injuries and the political pressure on doctors to not diclose them. This warrants extensive investigation and of course it means there could be a lot of unreported injuries, not taken into account in official statistics, which could change a lot of conclusions regarding safety.

 

I think Dr. Phelps' testimony in this respect is credible, do you?

If Australia was the only country reporting data, then the point you are making might have some significance. But it's not. So, unless Australians are a biologically distinct subspecies, this line of speculation is utterly irrelevant.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

The topic is about Dr Phelps submission which covers many items not just the paragraph on more transparent reporting and Doctors being able to better relay any concerns they may have.

Nice euphemism. Excerpt for the record:

 

Vaccine injury is a subject that few in the medical profession have wanted to talk about. Regulators of the medical profession have censored public discussion about adverse events following immunisation, with threats to doctors not to make any public statements about anything that “might undermine the government’s vaccine rollout” or risk suspension or loss of their registration.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

If Australia was the only country reporting data, then the point you are making might have some significance. But it's not. So, unless Australians are a biologically distinct subspecies, this line of speculation is utterly irrelevant.

So according to this rationale, it will become relevant if politicians from other countries make similar submissions to Dr. Phelps'. Duly noted, and I am confident I will be getting back to you on this in due time.

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Nice euphemism. Excerpt for the record:

 

Vaccine injury is a subject that few in the medical profession have wanted to talk about. Regulators of the medical profession have censored public discussion about adverse events following immunisation, with threats to doctors not to make any public statements about anything that “might undermine the government’s vaccine rollout” or risk suspension or loss of their registration.

Ok so now we have the full quote, what else did she say or is that not on your topic list? I'll be happy to help out to remind you.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Bkk Brian