ZALENSKY has landed in the US

[heybruce]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:27 AM, Hanaguma said:

It is up to the Russian people to stop Putin if they want.  Not my business. Now how about you stop hiding behind the polls and take a shot at answering my questions? What is Ukraine actually worth to you?

Do you think the Russian people are more likely to stop Putin if he is allowed to rebuild the Soviet Empire?

 

I think they are more likely to stop Putin when they see he is bleeding his country to death with little to show for it.

[heybruce]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:23 AM, Hanaguma said:

Again you are making WW2 comparisons when they are not warranted.  How about answering my basic questions about your support for the war- how much is too much, and would you go to war?

I think the World War 2 comparisons are very warranted. 

[heybruce]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:52 AM, Hanaguma said:

I'll take a stab at it. The consequences are that Putin probably would be content with occupying the Russian speaking areas of the country.  He doesn't have the military capacity to threaten Europe in any serious way, let alone threaten North America.  He would not invade a NATO country because that would provoke a larger response.

 

So I say give him those areas. THEN impose sanctions on Russia that actually hurt. Total boycott of all Russian products, severing of all pipelines, cancellation of all visas and travel. Complete isolation. 

 

Now how about you return the favor?

Here's a World War 2 comparison: Hitler justified his invasions of other countries by claiming he was defending German people and giving them land to live on.  Just like Putin is doing. 

 

There are a lot of Hungarians in Romania, a lot of French in Canada, a lot of Chinese in Thailand.....

 

Let the fighting begin!

[heybruce]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:46 AM, Hanaguma said:

Perhaps because winning isn't the goal. The goal is to fuel the machine.  There are also domestic political considerations for Biden.  Ukraine is a good distraction from the real troubles that exist within the borders of the United States.  Also anything to do with Putin instantly draws a crowd of shrill T D S patients to the party.  

 

Like I have said many times, let's imagine that Ukraine 'wins' the war and drives the Russians back to the original borders. Now what?   Putin/Russia won't just stop fighting. They have sunk costs they need to recoup somehow. 

"Perhaps because winning isn't the goal. The goal is to fuel the machine."

 

Right; state your conspiracy theory as a fact and assume foolish people will believe you.

 

To the foolish:  Do you really think Zelensky, Biden, and other supporters of Ukraine will be saddened if Russia gives up and leaves Ukraine?

[heybruce]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:18 PM, Chigur said:

You evidently assume Zelensky is in charge. He is in charge of nothing. He is a pawn running a proxy war on behalf of Nato/US. And a bunch of shady Ukrainian oligarchs and arms merchants, who are getting fabulously rich off the money flowing in, are propping him up. If he goes off script he's dead.

 

I don't envy the man. Is he personally enriching himself? I hope so. He deserves  a life of quiet luxury in Monaco after the government falls.

Could you be any more of a pro-Russian troll?

[Chigur]

6 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Could you be any more of a pro-Russian troll?

Ah, they say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Permit me to paraphrase. Accusation of being pro-Russian is the last refuge of the halfwit with no real argument.

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, Chigur said:

Ah, they say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Permit me to paraphrase. Accusation of being pro-Russian is the last refuge of the halfwit with no real argument.

You're positions are virulently anti-Ukranian regardless. 

[heybruce]

20 minutes ago, Chigur said:

Ah, they say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Permit me to paraphrase. Accusation of being pro-Russian is the last refuge of the halfwit with no real argument.

You post non-sensical opinions without any rational basis and you expect a "real argument"? 

 

How's this:  Present your evidence that Zelensky isn't in charge of anything, that he is propped up by shady Ukrainian oligarchs who will have him killed if he disobeys them, and that NATO and the US would object to a quick end to the war with Ukraine's pre-war borders restored.  After you have presented this evidence we can debate its merits.

 

Until you present such evidence, I stand by my claim that you are a Russian troll.

 

 

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, Chigur said:

I have zero problems with the country or the people. Not that it matters to them, I am a person of no importance. But since you ask, I despise the regime running Ukraine and what they have been tasked with by Nato/US.

I realize you are desperately trying to avoid the obvious so I'm putting it right in front of you:

 

Russia invaded Ukraine!

 

Ukraine is not defending itself because it was tasked to do so by the US or NATO.  It is defending itself because it was invaded.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Chigur said:

I have zero problems with the country or the people. Not that it matters to them, I am a person of no importance. But since you ask, I despise the regime running Ukraine and what they have been tasked with by Nato/US.

So they should be slaves of Putin then.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I realize you are desperately trying to avoid the obvious so I'm putting it right in front of you:

 

Russia invaded Ukraine!

 

Ukraine is not defending itself because it was tasked to do so by the US or NATO.  It is defending itself because it was invaded.

And if it doesn't Ukraine will cease to exist as a sovereign nation.

 

Let's face it  That guy has a propaganda agenda for a motivation that he won't reveal. Waste of time.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Jingthing

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, Chigur said:

Sure, I don't deny Russia went into Ukraine uninvited. But I ask you to read up:

 

1. About the 2014 Maidan coup and who managed it. There's a recording on YT of Nuland telling Ambassador Pyatt who should be in charge of what in Ukraine post-coup. This recording from even before the coup and Nuland is from the US State dept!

 

2. Translation of Merkel's recent interview to Die Zeit where she admits that Nato had no interest in implementing the Minsk accords of 2014/15. She acknowledged they signed on in order to buy time for Ukraine to be armed. Poroshenko confirms this in a separate interview.

 

3. Putin's Munich speech of 2007.  He pointed out that Nato had violated its commitment to Gorbachev to not grow Nato toward Russia by doing so twice. He drew a line: Georgia or Ukraine in Nato would be an unacceptable threat to Russian security (kind of like the Cuban missile crisis, except roles reversed). Which is what Minsk was about. All Ukraine had to do was accept neutrality and not a hair on their head would have been touched.

 

4. Other stuff.

 

Come back after and I'll see if to revise my conclusion that you are an empty head filled with someone else's tendentious narrative.

Provide sources for your claims and "I'll see if to revise my conclusion that you are an empty head filled with someone else's tendentious narrative."

 

I will refute your second most absurd claim ("Other stuff" is the most absurd.)  Gorbachev refuted claim 3.  There was no commitment to not expand NATO.  https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

[Chigur]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Provide sources for your claims and "I'll see if to revise my conclusion that you are an empty head filled with someone else's tendentious narrative."

 

I will refute your second most absurd claim ("Other stuff" is the most absurd.)  Gorbachev refuted claim 3.  There was no commitment to not expand NATO.  https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

I like that:-) Quoting an American think tank to endorse the American pov.

 

Ok, I'll play. Let's say Gorbachev said what he did. But who was running Russia in 2007? Putin. And he drew the line that Georgia and Ukraine are off-limits to Nato as far as he was concerned.

 

So that's the reality to deal with. The man running the country with the nuclear buttons under his table declares what he sees as a threat to his country's security. Take him for his word.

 

Don't and you get what happened in Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine now.

 

Oh, and I would like to point out we have done exactly the same in reaction to perceived threats to our security, i.e., invade a sovereign nation: see Iraq for a recent example.

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, Chigur said:

I like that:-) Quoting an American think tank to endorse the American pov.

 

Ok, I'll play. Let's say Gorbachev said what he did. But who was running Russia in 2007? Putin. And he drew the line that Georgia and Ukraine are off-limits to Nato as far as he was concerned.

 

So that's the reality to deal with. The man running the country with the nuclear buttons under his table declares what he sees as a threat to his country's security. Take him for his word.

 

Don't and you get what happened in Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine now.

 

Oh, and I would like to point out we have done exactly the same in reaction to perceived threats to our security, i.e., invade a sovereign nation: see Iraq for a recent example.

The "American think tank" quoted Gorbachev.  That's no lie.  Putin lied about promises he said were made to Gorbachev.  Yet you want us to take Putin at his word.  There's that Russian troll stuff again.

 

What happened in Georgia and Ukraine are the reason why so many countries want to join NATO.  If Russia wanted to stop NATO expansion it should have stopped threatening other countries.

 

Why no sources for your other claims?  Were the claims wrong, or just irrelevant statements taken wildly out of context?

 

 

[Chigur]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The "American think tank" quoted Gorbachev.  That's no lie.  Putin lied about promises he said were made to Gorbachev.  Yet you want us to take Putin at his word.  There's that Russian troll stuff again.

 

What happened in Georgia and Ukraine are the reason why so many countries want to join NATO.  If Russia wanted to stop NATO expansion it should have stopped threatening other countries.

 

Why no sources for your other claims?  Were the claims wrong, or just irrelevant statements taken wildly out of context?

 

 

Now you are blathering. Let's call this off. I am not going to spend Friday night with heybruce:-) As much as I am sure you don't want to spend it with chigur. We'll joust again on another thread. Good night to you, sir.

 

 

[heybruce]

22 minutes ago, Chigur said:

Now you are blathering. Let's call this off. I am not going to spend Friday night with heybruce:-) As much as I am sure you don't want to spend it with chigur. We'll joust again on another thread. Good night to you, sir.

 

 

I give referenced facts and you give nonsense opinions right out of Russia Today, yet you accuse me of blathering.  Give it up troll.

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Chigur said:

Now you are blathering. Let's call this off. I am not going to spend Friday night with heybruce:-) As much as I am sure you don't want to spend it with chigur. We'll joust again on another thread. Good night to you, sir.

 

Just more blathering from you. You've got nothing.

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, Chigur said:

Ah, they say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Permit me to paraphrase. Accusation of being pro-Russian is the last refuge of the halfwit with no real argument.

What about those who are pro Russian? Is is out of order to accuse them of being so?

 

Russia knows it's fossil fuel based economy has a bleak future. It sought to grab Ukraine's resources and farmland to remain a world power. Just apart from the personal ambitions of a fascist dictator.

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Chigur said:

Sure, I don't deny Russia went into Ukraine uninvited. But I ask you to read up:

 

1. About the 2014 Maidan coup and who managed it. There's a recording on YT of Nuland telling Ambassador Pyatt who should be in charge of what in Ukraine post-coup. This recording is from even before the coup and Nuland is from the US State dept!

Here's a link to the transcript of the Nuland conversation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

No evidence at all that US controlled this. Rather, they're trying to figure out a way to get all the various players to agree to form a government. Nuland expresses opinions but absolutely nothing here to suggest coercion. Nothing

 

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Chigur said:

Sure, I don't deny Russia went into Ukraine uninvited. But I ask you to read up:

 

2. Translation of Merkel's recent interview to Die Zeit where she admits that Nato had no interest in implementing the Minsk accords of 2014/15. She acknowledged they signed on in order to buy time for Ukraine to be armed. Poroshenko confirms this in a separate interview.

This is especially rich. Russia claiimed it wasn't covered by the Minsk accords since it had no troops in Ukraine. It's also instructive to note that the Russian backed forces in Donbas held inspectors hostage more than once. And their reports showed that most of the violations in the Donbas were perpetrated by the pro-Russian forces.

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Chigur said:

3. Putin's Munich speech of 2007.  He pointed out that Nato had violated its commitment to Gorbachev to not grow Nato toward Russia by doing so twice. He drew a line: Georgia or Ukraine in Nato would be an unacceptable threat to Russian security (kind of like the Cuban missile crisis, except roles reversed). Which is what Minsk was about. All Ukraine had to do was accept neutrality and not a hair on their head would have been touched.

 

Anyone familiar with the thinking of Putin and his circle knows that this is tripe. Putin and Co. subscribe to an ideology that Russia has the right and the duty to expand to fill the borders of what Czarist Russia once ruled.

[Saanim]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Anyone familiar with the thinking of Putin and his circle knows that this is tripe. Putin and Co. subscribe to an ideology that Russia has the right and the duty to expand to fill the borders of what Czarist Russia once ruled.

Any link to that? If not, then it is a unattributed statement.

[Saanim]

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

I will refute your second most absurd claim ("Other stuff" is the most absurd.)  Gorbachev refuted claim 3.  There was no commitment to not expand NATO.  https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

There are written accounts of the ones present at the discussions Gorbachev, Baker, Genscher and others, can be read in declassified archive - can be googled who wants to know.

 

Actually, why such agreements are to be kept in secret? Agreements that mean fate of countries, population, consequences on further developments and sometimes wars?  Are the acting persons Gods in Heaven?  

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

And their reports showed that most of the violations in the Donbas were perpetrated by the pro-Russian forces.

Do you have link to your statement?  Their reports? Who is they?

There are reports not only OSCE but also Amnesty International in the first time within 2014.

AI even with a direct address to Ukraine govt, no answer. Later they did not dare...

Even Western media reports - in the first time within 2014 - later they did not dare...

[placeholder]

30 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Any link to that? If not, then it is a unattributed statement.

Statements that can't be backed up with facts are your specialty, not mine

This enough for you?

Putin Sees Himself as Part of the History of Russia's Tsars—Including Their Imperialism

Putin’s war of aggression in Ukraine is a sign of the imperial expansionism that has defined the Russian state for so much of its history. But it is based as much on mythical ideas as on geo-politics in the conventional sense: ideas of a nationalist, socially conservative, anti-Western and religious character that underpin dictatorships in Russia, China, and Iran. Before us we can see a new type of empire arising in Eurasia, uniting countries with historic grievances against the West.

https://time.com/6218211/vladimir-putin-russian-tsars-imperialism/

 

Restoration of empire is the endgame for Russia’s Vladimir Putin

Reading Russian President Vladimir Putin’s mind is rarely a straightforward task, but on occasion the Kremlin leader makes it easy.

Such was the case on Thursday, when Putin met with a group of young Russian entrepreneurs. Anyone looking for clues as to what Putin’s endgame for Ukraine might be should read the transcript, helpfully released here in English.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/10/europe/russia-putin-empire-restoration-endgame-intl-cmd/index.html

 

Meeting with young entrepreneurs, engineers and scientists

Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. On the face of it, he was at war with Sweden taking something away from it… He was not taking away anything, he was returning...

When he founded the new capital, none of the European countries recognised this territory as part of Russia; everyone recognised it as part of Sweden. 

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/68606

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/68606

 

The Grand Theory Driving Putin to War

In 2013, he [Putin] declared that Eurasia was a major geopolitical zone where Russia’s “genetic code” and its many peoples would be defended against “extreme Western-style liberalism.” In July last year he announced that “Russians and Ukrainians are one people,” and in his furious rant on the eve of invasion, he described Ukraine as a “colony with a puppet regime,” where the Orthodox Church is under assault and NATO prepares for an attack on Russia.

This brew of attitudes — complaints about Western aggression, exaltation of traditional values over the decadence of individual rights, assertions of Russia’s duty to unite Eurasia and subordinate Ukraine — developed in the cauldron of post-imperial resentment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/22/opinion/russia-ukraine-putin-eurasianism.html

Edited December 24, 2022 by placeholder

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

Statements that can't be backed up with facts are your specialty, not mine

This enough for you?

Putin Sees Himself as Part of the History of Russia's Tsars—Including Their Imperialism

Putin’s war of aggression in Ukraine is a sign of the imperial expansionism that has defined the Russian state for so much of its history. But it is based as much on mythical ideas as on geo-politics in the conventional sense: ideas of a nationalist, socially conservative, anti-Western and religious character that underpin dictatorships in Russia, China, and Iran. Before us we can see a new type of empire arising in Eurasia, uniting countries with historic grievances against the West.

https://time.com/6218211/vladimir-putin-russian-tsars-imperialism/

 

Restoration of empire is the endgame for Russia’s Vladimir Putin

Reading Russian President Vladimir Putin’s mind is rarely a straightforward task, but on occasion the Kremlin leader makes it easy.

Such was the case on Thursday, when Putin met with a group of young Russian entrepreneurs. Anyone looking for clues as to what Putin’s endgame for Ukraine might be should read the transcript, helpfully released here in English.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/10/europe/russia-putin-empire-restoration-endgame-intl-cmd/index.html

 

Meeting with young entrepreneurs, engineers and scientists

Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. On the face of it, he was at war with Sweden taking something away from it… He was not taking away anything, he was returning...

When he founded the new capital, none of the European countries recognised this territory as part of Russia; everyone recognised it as part of Sweden. 

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/68606

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/68606

 

The Grand Theory Driving Putin to War

In 2013, he [Putin] declared that Eurasia was a major geopolitical zone where Russia’s “genetic code” and its many peoples would be defended against “extreme Western-style liberalism.” In July last year he announced that “Russians and Ukrainians are one people,” and in his furious rant on the eve of invasion, he described Ukraine as a “colony with a puppet regime,” where the Orthodox Church is under assault and NATO prepares for an attack on Russia.

This brew of attitudes — complaints about Western aggression, exaltation of traditional values over the decadence of individual rights, assertions of Russia’s duty to unite Eurasia and subordinate Ukraine — developed in the cauldron of post-imperial resentment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/22/opinion/russia-ukraine-putin-eurasianism.html

Links what he really said, not links to spin doctors...

[placeholder]

18 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Links what he really said, not links to spin doctors...

What you call "spin doctors" most would call scholars. For example, the author of the NY Times piece:

"Jane Burbank is an emeritus professor of history and Russian and Slavic studies at New York University and an author, with Frederick Cooper, of “Empires in World History: Power and the Politics of Difference.”

The third entry actually quotes him"

 

But you want it more explcit And here's a section of the speech where he specifically compares the situation today to that of Peter the Great who waged many wars of conquest.  (Start at about 50 seconds in)

 

Putin said, "The Battle of Narvia what was he [Peter the Great] doing? Redeeming and reinforcing, that's what he did. And it looks like it fell on us to redeem and reinforce as well."

The battle of Narvia was an attempt by Russia to regain lands that it once ruled. Could his intent be any clearer?

There's also this

"Peter the Great waged the great northern war for 21 years. It would seem that he was at war with Sweden, he took something from them...

In an attempt to justify his war in Ukraine, now on its 107th day, Putin compared Peter's campaign with Russia's present-day military endeavours.

"Apparently, it also fell to us to return [what is Russia’s] and strengthen [the country].

https://www.brusselstimes.com/236481/putin-compares-himself-to-tsar-peter-the-great

 

There is also this article  written by Putin where he claims that the Russians and the Ukrainians are one people.

"During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole. These words were not driven by some short-term considerations or prompted by the current political context. It is what I have said on numerous occasions and what I firmly believe"

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181