Ukraine war: Russia's Wagner Group commander requests Norway asylum

[Saanim]

19 hours ago, placeholder said:

I have no doubt. But you asked why he didn't surrender to the Ukrainians? I pointed out that the fact that he served in the Wagner Group might explain that.

Why? Do you insinuate that they (the Ukrainians) execute the prisoners? We do not hear such horrible stories about them, do we? The recent story and video about the point blank execution was not confirmed. (Or was it? By whom?)  

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Why? Do you insinuate that they (the Ukrainians) execute the prisoners? We do not hear such horrible stories about them, do we? The recent story and video about the point blank execution was not confirmed. (Or was it? By whom?)  

The only person doing the insinuation here is you. Which is par for the course.  I insinuated absolutely nothing about the Ukrainians executing Russian deserters. There are a lot of options open to the Ukrainians between a warm welcome and execution.

 

Are you referring to the sledgehammer executions inflicted by Wagner on deserters? Or does that not count?

[Saanim]

 

23 hours ago, heybruce said:

I see; you believed the part about Osechkin deserting after four months, but not the part about him having only a four month contract. 

 

If you didn't trust the news source, why did you use the parts of the article that you thought could make him look bad?

 

22 hours ago, placeholder said:

Nailed him.

 

18 hours ago, heybruce said:

Not difficult, but it won't faze him.  He has a history of disavowing the credibility of news sources when he loses an argument, even the news sources he used in his argument.

You "nailed me". Where did I say I do not believe his "four month contract"? It seems you like to twist my comments. Does it make any good for a fair debate? 

[Saanim]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The only person doing the insinuation here is you. Which is par for the course.  I insinuated absolutely nothing about the Ukrainians executing Russian deserters. There are a lot of options open to the Ukrainians between a warm welcome and execution.

 

Are you referring to the sledgehammer executions inflicted by Wagner on deserters? Or does that not count?

So, what was your assumption why he rather did not chose running to his cousins over the river?  Surely much shorter way and much easier... 

[placeholder]

Just now, Saanim said:

So, what was your assumption why he rather did not chose running to his cousins over the river?  Surely much shorter way and much easier... 

What don't you understand about the fact that there's a range of options between execution and a warm welcome?

[Saanim]

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What don't you understand about the fact that there's a range of options between execution and a warm welcome?

Do you mean a torturing? But that was resolutely denied when reported by OSCE, wasn't it? 

[Saanim]

19 hours ago, heybruce said:

Not difficult, but it won't faze him.  He has a history of disavowing the credibility of news sources when he loses an argument, even the news sources he used in his argument.

I am so sorry that you have been deprived of many of my links that have ended up somewhere in a lostness, together with my ingenious comments.  Don't be desperate, you can surely live without... 

[placeholder]

46 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Do you mean a torturing? But that was resolutely denied when reported by OSCE, wasn't it? 

Once again you're putting words in other people's mouths. I never once wrote the word "torture". Torture is illegal. There are plenty of legal options open to the Ukrainians.

[Hummin]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

Why? Do you insinuate that they (the Ukrainians) execute the prisoners? We do not hear such horrible stories about them, do we? The recent story and video about the point blank execution was not confirmed. (Or was it? By whom?)  

We dont know that, and Im sure war crimes happens on both sides. 

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

 

 

 

You "nailed me". Where did I say I do not believe his "four month contract"? It seems you like to twist my comments. Does it make any good for a fair debate? 

I posted that he did not desert because he had a four month contract which he fulfilled.  You replied that I shouldn't believe everything I read.  Your reply becomes meaningless unless one assumes you didn't want to believe the source you had originally relied upon to disparage Andrey Medvedev for "deserting".

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

I am so sorry that you have been deprived of many of my links that have ended up somewhere in a lostness, together with my ingenious comments.  Don't be desperate, you can surely live without... 

Do you mean the links to Russia Today and other dodgy, unapproved sources?

[Saanim]

33 minutes ago, Hummin said:

We dont know that, and Im sure war crimes happens on both sides. 

If you are sure you do not mind to get reported only about one side? 

 

24 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Do you mean the links to Russia Today and other dodgy, unapproved sources?

Quite amazing to give in context your assumption to the other statement.

 

BTW, how do you know that it is dodgy? And who is the approval body? 

[heybruce]

11 minutes ago, Saanim said:

If you are sure you do not mind to get reported only about one side? 

 

Quite amazing to give in context your assumption to the other statement.

 

BTW, how do you know that it is dodgy? And who is the approval body? 

I know Russia Today is dodgy because the government puts strict limits on what they can and can't report.  For example, they can't call the the war in Ukraine a war.

 

I never trust a news source that is under the thumb of its government.

Edited January 21, 2023 by heybruce

[Hummin]

17 minutes ago, Saanim said:

If you are sure you do not mind to get reported only about one side? 

 

Quite amazing to give in context your assumption to the other statement.

 

BTW, how do you know that it is dodgy? And who is the approval body? 

There is no such as good and bad in war, and you can imagine yourself on one of the sides in a conflict like this. Most people do not understand what war do to people no matter what side you are on.

 

 

Here is on link from Al Jazeera 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/16/ukraine-must-investigate-alleged-war-crimes-by-its-forces

[Saanim]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

I know Russia Today is dodgy because the government puts strict limits on what they can and can't report.  For example, they can't call the the war in Ukraine a war.

 

I never trust a news source that is under the thumb of its government.

Just wondering that - in these days when we (and the world) have learned so much about media "under thumb of its government" - somebody dares to place such an argument like you did. 

 

It seems that some members we see here daily discussing strongly - and blindly - the current world situation, have lost their touch with the reality.

 

Anyway, I am well aware how such a RT link would be here classified within minutes, I would not waste my time. My links that haven't had long life - and the post with them -  are from an "approved" source, unfortunately, many of them have gone from various reasons...

 

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Just wondering that - in these days when we (and the world) have learned so much about media "under thumb of its government" - somebody dares to place such an argument like you did. 

 

It seems that some members we see here daily discussing strongly - and blindly - the current world situation, have lost their touch with the reality.

 

Anyway, I am well aware how such a RT link would be here classified within minutes, I would not waste my time. My links that haven't had long life - and the post with them -  are from an "approved" source, unfortunately, many of them have gone from various reasons...

 

Before the invasion, there is plenty of valid links with information about Ukraine and the border conflict. Well balanced I would say until the invasion last year. Now nobody wants to see or talk about it.

 

There have been two parts or more in this conflict for a long time, but now it is Putin who is terror bombing civilians in Ukraine, and then it is easier ro choose side, and let the propaganda work for the better! 

 

It is only up to Putin to end the war now! Nobody else!

[candide]

51 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Just wondering that - in these days when we (and the world) have learned so much about media "under thumb of its government" - somebody dares to place such an argument like you did. 

 

It seems that some members we see here daily discussing strongly - and blindly - the current world situation, have lost their touch with the reality.

 

Anyway, I am well aware how such a RT link would be here classified within minutes, I would not waste my time. My links that haven't had long life - and the post with them -  are from an "approved" source, unfortunately, many of them have gone from various reasons...

 

Are you serious? You don't see the difference between media which are censored (and state controlled on top of it), and media which independence is protected by law? Really?

[Saanim]

28 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Before the invasion, there is plenty of valid links with information about Ukraine and the border conflict. Well balanced I would say until the invasion last year. Now nobody wants to see or talk about it.

 

There have been two parts or more in this conflict for a long time, but now it is Putin who is terror bombing civilians in Ukraine, and then it is easier ro choose side, and let the propaganda work for the better! 

 

It is only up to Putin to end the war now! Nobody else!

At the beginning (March 2022) of the conflict there were meetings organized in Belarus with the purpose of ceasefire and perhaps more. However, shortly after the first seance one of the Ukraine participants, a banker, was point blank executed on suspicion of Russian collaboration - as it was afterwards explained in Ukraine media. That despite the fact that days before he was instrumental in saving Kiev from a Russian attack. Now, after almost one year the official statement says that it was a mistake, a misunderstanding within the secret services.

 

So, after such events, who will be so keen to further try to negotiate? 

     

[Hummin]

20 minutes ago, Saanim said:

At the beginning (March 2022) of the conflict there were meetings organized in Belarus with the purpose of ceasefire and perhaps more. However, shortly after the first seance one of the Ukraine participants, a banker, was point blank executed on suspicion of Russian collaboration - as it was afterwards explained in Ukraine media. That despite the fact that days before he was instrumental in saving Kiev from a Russian attack. Now, after almost one year the official statement says that it was a mistake, a misunderstanding within the secret services.

 

So, after such events, who will be so keen to further try to negotiate? 

     

Is that an excuse to terror bomb civilians?

[placeholder]

31 minutes ago, Saanim said:

At the beginning (March 2022) of the conflict there were meetings organized in Belarus with the purpose of ceasefire and perhaps more. However, shortly after the first seance one of the Ukraine participants, a banker, was point blank executed on suspicion of Russian collaboration - as it was afterwards explained in Ukraine media. That despite the fact that days before he was instrumental in saving Kiev from a Russian attack. Now, after almost one year the official statement says that it was a mistake, a misunderstanding within the secret services.

 

So, after such events, who will be so keen to further try to negotiate? 

     

You state as absolute fact what is a rather murky situation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denys_Kireyev

But what is interesting is that you now accept that Russia did plan to attack Kiev in the early stage of the war but failed.

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, Saanim said:

Just wondering that - in these days when we (and the world) have learned so much about media "under thumb of its government" - somebody dares to place such an argument like you did. 

 

It seems that some members we see here daily discussing strongly - and blindly - the current world situation, have lost their touch with the reality.

 

Anyway, I am well aware how such a RT link would be here classified within minutes, I would not waste my time. My links that haven't had long life - and the post with them -  are from an "approved" source, unfortunately, many of them have gone from various reasons...

 

Just wondering how you can consider comparing Western media, which loves to investigate and report government malfeasance and incompetence, to Russia media.

 

I suspect your posts using approved sources that were deleted were done so for being off-topic deflections.  You do that a lot, as you are doing now. 

 

This topic is about someone who signed up for four months with Wagner, served his time, was horrified by what he saw, and, after being told his service commitment was being extended unilaterally, fled Russia.  If you have credible evidence the story is false, feel free to post it.  If all you've got is "I don't trust media" then don't post.

[heybruce]

10 hours ago, Saanim said:

At the beginning (March 2022) of the conflict there were meetings organized in Belarus with the purpose of ceasefire and perhaps more. However, shortly after the first seance one of the Ukraine participants, a banker, was point blank executed on suspicion of Russian collaboration - as it was afterwards explained in Ukraine media. That despite the fact that days before he was instrumental in saving Kiev from a Russian attack. Now, after almost one year the official statement says that it was a mistake, a misunderstanding within the secret services.

 

So, after such events, who will be so keen to further try to negotiate? 

     

That is the sort of post that is begging for a link to a credible source.  Do you have one?

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

Just wondering how you can consider comparing Western media, which loves to investigate and report government malfeasance and incompetence, to Russia media.

 

Please enlighten us more about this topic.

 

 

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

That is the sort of post that is begging for a link to a credible source.  Do you have one?

It's not what's trumpeted every hour by MSM. What they do not tell us it has not happened.

Usually it needs a certain time when also the MSM will report at last what has been labelled before as conspiracy theory or another misinformation.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10582805/Ukrainian-peace-negotiator-shot-dead-amid-claims-Russian-spy.html

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-spy-or-ukrainian-hero-the-strange-death-of-denys-kiryeyev-11674059395?mod=Searchresults_pos11&page=1

 

 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Saanim said:

Please enlighten us more about this topic.

 

 

It's not what's trumpeted every hour by MSM. What they do not tell us it has not happened.

Usually it needs a certain time when also the MSM will report at last what has been labelled before as conspiracy theory or another misinformation.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10582805/Ukrainian-peace-negotiator-shot-dead-amid-claims-Russian-spy.html

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russian-spy-or-ukrainian-hero-the-strange-death-of-denys-kiryeyev-11674059395?mod=Searchresults_pos11&page=1

 

 

Do you ever follow real news?  Do you think the news services of the US, UK, France, Germany, and every other democracy with a free press never criticize the nation's President or PM?

 

Regarding your links, all they say is that there are differing claims on how he died.