Thai Children With Foreign Fathers Don't Have Full Citizenship Rights In Thailand

[Livinginexile]

For a long time I naturally assumed that any child of mine born in> Thailand to a Thai mother would have the same rights in Thailand as> any other Thai born there. But apparently this isn't so.>> I just came accross the 'Thailand's Nationality Act' which is the law> of the land there today and which clearly says:>> "Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by> reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien> father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:>> (1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or> used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five> years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;>> (2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of> his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active> interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;>> (3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with> the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;>> (4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.>> The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of> (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the> revocation of Thai nationality."> http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...Act.htm>> I can easily imagine a situation where a grown-up Thai who has a> foreign father participating in some kind of peaceful anti-government> protest, being arrested, accused of disturbing the public order, and> stripped of his Thai citizenship.>> Or such a man can be arrested at one of the numerous soapy massage> parlours in Bangkok, accused of acting contrary to good morals, and> stripped of his Thai citizenship.>> Prostitution is officially illegal in Thailand. And a guy who> displeases the government in some way can be easily stripped of his> Thai citizenship on such a pretext. All they would need to do is have> a female police officer pose as a massage-parlour attendant for the> guy and have him arrested as soon as he grabs her nice tits.>> They do this kind of thing in the USA and in Canada all the time.> Although nobody looses their citizenship over this in USA or in Canada.>

[Livinginexile]

Sorry...wrong link.

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...onality_Act.htm

[phazey]

For a long time I naturally assumed that any child of mine born in Thailand to a Thai mother would have the same rights in Thailand as any other Thai born there. But apparently this isn't so. I just came accross the 'Thailand's Nationality Act' which is the law of the land there today and which clearly says:

"Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals. The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality."

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...Act.htm

I can easily imagine a situation where a grown-up Thai who has a foreign father participating in some kind of peaceful anti-government protest, being arrested, accused of disturbing the public order, and stripped of his Thai citizenship. Or such a man can be arrested at one of the numerous soapy massage parlours in Bangkok, accused of acting contrary to good morals, and stripped of his Thai citizenship. Prostitution is officially illegal in Thailand. And a guy who displeases the government in some way can be easily stripped of his Thai citizenship on such a pretext. All they would need to do is have a female police officer pose as a massage-parlour attendant for the guy and have him arrested as soon as he grabs her nice tits. They do this kind of thing in the USA and in Canada all the time. Although nobody looses their citizenship over this in USA or in Canada.

Hope you don't mind me fixing a few things for you. My eyes started to bleed and something had to be done. Bloody computer, eh?

[Livinginexile]

For a long time I naturally assumed that any child of mine born in Thailand to a Thai mother would have the same rights in Thailand as any other Thai born there. But apparently this isn't so. I just came accross the 'Thailand's Nationality Act' which is the law of the land there today and which clearly says:

"Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals. The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality."

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...Act.htm

I can easily imagine a situation where a grown-up Thai who has a foreign father participating in some kind of peaceful anti-government protest, being arrested, accused of disturbing the public order, and stripped of his Thai citizenship. Or such a man can be arrested at one of the numerous soapy massage parlours in Bangkok, accused of acting contrary to good morals, and stripped of his Thai citizenship. Prostitution is officially illegal in Thailand. And a guy who displeases the government in some way can be easily stripped of his Thai citizenship on such a pretext. All they would need to do is have a female police officer pose as a massage-parlour attendant for the guy and have him arrested as soon as he grabs her nice tits. They do this kind of thing in the USA and in Canada all the time. Although nobody looses their citizenship over this in USA or in Canada.

Hope you don't mind me fixing a few things for you. My eyes started to bleed and something had to be done. Bloody computer, eh?

Thanx mate...much clearer

Section 17 is the part that suprised me..

[samran]

interesting in theory.

Not sure that it would be totally enforceable though from a practical perspective however. My concern with the text is that it ignores the constitution which says that all Thai citizens must be treated equally. You could hypothically go to the contitutional court to test the validity of section 17. Why should a child born in LOS under the circumstances described under section 17 be disadvantaged compared to someone like me - a Thai national born to a foreign father outside the kingdom?

That said, I ain't no lawyer.

[Neeranam]

Who cares - they have British Citizenship if they get denied their Thai one.

[Ulysses G.]

Who cares - they have British Citizenship if they get denied their Thai one.

Good point!

[bruceboy]

A friend of mine is a 100% Thai, born in Thailand but raised in the US. He, I believe, has dual citizenship. He can work in Thailand as a Thai but travels around the world using his US passport. Lucky bugger

[simon43]

It's a matter of concern to me. Suppose my son (who was born in LoS with a Thai mother), goes to work in the UK in the future. He has dual nationality and can therefore work/enter the UK without need for a visa. Maybe he is working in the UK on Thai/UK international business (which benefits Thailand etc). It seems that this act says that his Thai citizenship can be revoked if he stays more than 5 years in the UK.... (Maybe he is at college in the UK for more than 5 years?)

It seems that even the Thai nationality act discriminates against Thais.....

Simon

[thai_narak]

For a long time I naturally assumed that any child of mine born in> Thailand to a Thai mother would have the same rights in Thailand as> any other Thai born there. But apparently this isn't so.>> I just came accross the 'Thailand's Nationality Act' which is the law> of the land there today and which clearly says:>> "Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by> reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien> father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:>> (1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or> used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five> years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;>> (2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of> his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active> interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;>> (3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with> the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;>> (4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.>> The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of> (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the> revocation of Thai nationality."> http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...Act.htm>> I can easily imagine a situation where a grown-up Thai who has a> foreign father participating in some kind of peaceful anti-government> protest, being arrested, accused of disturbing the public order, and> stripped of his Thai citizenship.>> Or such a man can be arrested at one of the numerous soapy massage> parlours in Bangkok, accused of acting contrary to good morals, and> stripped of his Thai citizenship.>> Prostitution is officially illegal in Thailand. And a guy who> displeases the government in some way can be easily stripped of his> Thai citizenship on such a pretext. All they would need to do is have> a female police officer pose as a massage-parlour attendant for the> guy and have him arrested as soon as he grabs her nice tits.>> They do this kind of thing in the USA and in Canada all the time.> Although nobody looses their citizenship over this in USA or in Canada.>

what if your country doesn't have recprocity with this act? means they won't accept the thai citizen (half-half) as easy to become their citizen?

[Sophon]

For a long time I naturally assumed that any child of mine born in Thailand to a Thai mother would have the same rights in Thailand as any other Thai born there. But apparently this isn't so. I just came accross the 'Thailand's Nationality Act' which is the law of the land there today and which clearly says:

"Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals. The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality."

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/docs3/THAILAND&...Act.htm

I can easily imagine a situation where a grown-up Thai who has a foreign father participating in some kind of peaceful anti-government protest, being arrested, accused of disturbing the public order, and stripped of his Thai citizenship. Or such a man can be arrested at one of the numerous soapy massage parlours in Bangkok, accused of acting contrary to good morals, and stripped of his Thai citizenship. Prostitution is officially illegal in Thailand. And a guy who displeases the government in some way can be easily stripped of his Thai citizenship on such a pretext. All they would need to do is have a female police officer pose as a massage-parlour attendant for the guy and have him arrested as soon as he grabs her nice tits. They do this kind of thing in the USA and in Canada all the time. Although nobody looses their citizenship over this in USA or in Canada.

Hope you don't mind me fixing a few things for you. My eyes started to bleed and something had to be done. Bloody computer, eh?

I may be wrong here (I probably am), but the way I read it this only applies to a situation where a person is born to two foreign parents and has acquired Thai nationality (as it says) "by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father". I don't think it applies to situations where you have acquired Thai nationality by being "A person born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom".

I believe the quoted sections refers to chapter 1 section 7 about acquisition of Thai nationality, which also seems to imply that you can (at least in theory) under certain circumstances acquire Thai nationality by being born in Thailand, even if you are born to two foreign parents. I have no idea what circumstances that might be though.

Sophon

[Kerryd]

One should never "assume" anything, especially when dealing with foreign matters. (As we say in the army, "assume" makes an "ass" of "u" and "me")

Just because the rules are one way back home, doesn't mean every other country in the world follows the same rules. In Canada (it used to be anyways), if you were born on Canadian soil, you had Canadian citizenship, period. If you were on a ship that was in Canadian waters, same thing. If you were on a ship that had a Canadian Captain, same thing.

Once obtained, it pretty much takes a ruling by the Supreme Court to have your citizenship stripped.

My father was born Canadian, but raised in the USA. On his 18th birthday he had to choose which country to reside in (he picked Canada, long, long before the whole Vietnam thing started up).

Obviously, Thailand has it's own set of rules regarding citizenship. However, I hardly doubt they are going to fill massage parlours with female undercover policewoman, hoping to catch a couple of luk kreungs so they can deport them.

The Kingdom obviously had reason to make these regulations, and at the time, they probably did it with the best intentions of the Kingdom in mind.

[chanchao]

constitution

LOL.

At this point it would be good to remind ourselves that we ARE living in a banana-anarchy where constitutions are written on those pink napkins you find in 10 baht rice soup stalls, and command about as much value and respect.

Sure the kid has no rights, but then neither have you or me, as well as the vast majority of Thais.

The kid is relatively lucky that he/she also holds a Western nationality so has a way out.

[siam-i-am]

It's true, I hear Tiger Woods still loses sleep over it

[Shah Jahan]

I have also heard that half-bloods are exempt from military draft as well?

can anybody verify

[samran]

I have also heard that half-bloods are exempt from military draft as well?

can anybody verify

not true. All thai males are required to report for the draft.

Exemptions exist for those undertaking teritary education.

Those who report and are over 30 are effectively released from duties.

Those who do not meet the fitness requirements are effectively released from duties.

[Shah Jahan]

I have also heard that half-bloods are exempt from military draft as well?

can anybody verify

not true. All thai males are required to report for the draft.

Exemptions exist for those undertaking teritary education.

Those who report and are over 30 are effectively released from duties.

Those who do not meet the fitness requirements are effectively released from duties.

which effectively means that any family with a little bit of money or influence is exempt

[mellow1]

The people in power here are much smarter than what many of us, give them credit for.They can do whatever they want,and if theres any doubt,they will put it in writing.The best part is, that everyone will then be happy to accept it,because it could always be worse.Another trivial matter this.But good information.

[kmart]

The people in power here are much smarter than what many of us, give them credit for.They can do whatever they want,and if theres any doubt,they will put it in writing.The best part is, that everyone will then be happy to accept it,because it could always be worse.Another trivial matter this.But good information.

They are only as "smart" as what they are allowed to get away with from an apathetic and uneducated population. This will change for the better... I hope.

[Payboy]

The people in power here are much smarter than what many of us, give them credit for.They can do whatever they want,and if theres any doubt,they will put it in writing.The best part is, that everyone will then be happy to accept it,because it could always be worse.Another trivial matter this.But good information.

They are only as "smart" as what they are allowed to get away with from an apathetic and uneducated population. This will change for the better... I hope.

i have my doubts about changes for the better - keeping the majority uneducated and thereby employed at pittance wage levels is after all the utmost priority of those in power

[BAF]

I may be wrong here (I probably am), but the way I read it this only applies to a situation where a person is born to two foreign parents and has acquired Thai nationality (as it says) "by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father". I don't think it applies to situations where you have acquired Thai nationality by being "A person born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom".

I believe the quoted sections refers to chapter 1 section 7 about acquisition of Thai nationality, which also seems to imply that you can (at least in theory) under certain circumstances acquire Thai nationality by being born in Thailand, even if you are born to two foreign parents. I have no idea what circumstances that might be though.

Sophon

I may be wrong as well, but wasn't in the past Thai citizenship restricted to those born to a Thai father and a foreign mother (and denied to those with a Thai mother and a foreign mother, along with land ownership rights etc)?

Acquiring Thai citizenship by being born within Thailand was the only option available to those kids with the "wrong" Thai parent and that would explain this law (since if it would apply to those born to two foreign parents it wouldn't make sense to talk about the "alien father", the law would have said the "alien parents"). Of course this is Thailand we are talking about and Thais have written this law so it may well be possible, normal and (Thai) logic...

Edited July 4, 2007 by BAF

[sibeymai]

The people in power here are much smarter than what many of us, give them credit for.They can do whatever they want,and if theres any doubt,they will put it in writing.The best part is, that everyone will then be happy to accept it,because it could always be worse.Another trivial matter this.But good information.

They are only as "smart" as what they are allowed to get away with from an apathetic and uneducated population. This will change for the better... I hope.

i have my doubts about changes for the better - keeping the majority uneducated and thereby employed at pittance wage levels is after all the utmost priority of those in power

A truer statement I have not seen on TV for some time and one of which I am equally convinced.

Just like years ago when the rich said to the church "You keep them dumb and we'll keep them poor".

[BAF]

One should never "assume" anything, especially when dealing with foreign matters. (As we say in the army, "assume" makes an "ass" of "u" and "me")

Just because the rules are one way back home, doesn't mean every other country in the world follows the same rules.

But isn't it funny how the laws, regulations, their interpretation and their application/enforcement (especially those dealing with the most important matters like, for example, the basic human rights) are consistently identical or very similar across the Western countries and, equally, across 3rd world military junta/banana republic countires..?

Obviously, Thailand has it's own set of rules regarding citizenship. However, I hardly doubt they are going to fill massage parlours with female undercover policewoman, hoping to catch a couple of luk kreungs so they can deport them.

Sure, but they have "covered their asses" and established the umpteenth provision to make themselves able to pretty much do as they please.

So, if you want to keep your acquired Thai citizenship (you know, the one identified by the different starting number on your "Thai" ID...) you better keep (as always in Thailand) your head down and don't make an annoyance of yourself for those with any real power...

The Kingdom obviously had reason to make these regulations, and at the time, they probably did it with the best intentions of the Kingdom in mind.

Those reasons are called XENOPHOBIA, RACISM and SEX BASED DISCRIMINATION.

Edited July 4, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

They are only as "smart" as what they are allowed to get away with from an apathetic and uneducated population. This will change for the better... I hope.

They are only as "smart" as what WE allow them to.

I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

[samran]

They are only as "smart" as what they are allowed to get away with from an apathetic and uneducated population. This will change for the better... I hope.

They are only as "smart" as what WE allow them to.

I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

imagine administering 189 different sets of rules and regulations based on 189 bilateral treaties with 189 (or however many) countries in the world. I mean, the EU can't even harmonise their mobile phone tarriff rates and you are proposing this?

All countries should do what is in their best interests. If that means accepting immigrants because immigration is a good thing for the economy, then so be it. Who really cares what the other guy is doing? If we had 189 countries settling for some muddling mediocre status quo, we'd all be up the creek without a paddle.

Anyway, as one with dual passports, I'm not too worried. I'm confident my Thai one is safe. And at the moment, it is just as important to me to have the Thai one as it is the Australian one.

[jumnien]

You guys are thinking way too much this afternoon. You are worrying about stuff that isn't going to happen. Drink less coffee, hydrate with fresh water, and walk in the morning or afternoon and enjoy a bit of nature. Your child is not going to be stripped of his Thai citizenship.

[samran]

You guys are thinking way too much this afternoon. You are worrying about stuff that isn't going to happen. Drink less coffee, hydrate with fresh water, and walk in the morning or afternoon and enjoy a bit of nature. Your child is not going to be stripped of his Thai citizenship.

exactly, but hey, it is something to knock, whinge and fret about. So it is bound to cause the punters to stir.

Now where is my third Thai passport in 15 years again??? You know, the one with about 20 entries in and out of Thailand and not a single stamp from another country in it? Thats right, I remember...it is right next to the Thai passport that belongs to my blond haired, blue eyed daughter with lily white skin that would put Nicole Kidman to shame...

[esbobes]

post deleted.

[jumnien]

My wife did a bit of pre-military training when she was 16; she's a damned good shot! Neither of her brothers ever worried about military service as most Thai men don't. Ask around and you'll see that most men here as in our home countries haven't done any military service either.

[garro]

I have a luk kruang due to be born next month and my first reaction to this post was to be annoyed. Then I thought about it a bit more and as they say in The Sopranos; 'what you gonna do?' This is Thailand and life is too short