So Sad

[GinBoy2]

Many of you know I'm a total Anglophile and a total aviation geek.

 

This picture makes me cry.

 

A fantastic aviation industry which produced some of the worlds best aircraft, reduced to making 'bits' of aircraft 

[ezzra]

It would have been if you told us whom are you referring to, to those of us who are not aviation geeks, here's a question for you, in comparison between a US F16 to a Russian SU35, who do you think will come out the winner in an air battle?

Edited March 26, 2023 by ezzra

[norfolkandchance]

Jolly's in top, middle and bottom.

[norfolkandchance]

Sum's it up.

[scottiejohn]

22 minutes ago, ezzra said:

It would have been if you told us whom are you referring to, to those of us who are not aviation geeks,

I assume he means BAE although they did not build all the aircraft shown, they just bought the companies e.g.; English Electric "Lightning" - the Top right aircraft!

Edited March 26, 2023 by scottiejohn

[Patong2]

27 minutes ago, ezzra said:

It would have been if you told us whom are you referring to, to those of us who are not aviation geeks, here's a question for you, in comparison between a US F16 to a Russian SU35, who do you think will come out the winner in an air battle?

I was amazed looking at American F-16 and F-18 and comparing them to Migs (21, 23 and 29) of the same era and the disparity in build quality was enormous. The American planes were meticulously finished. The Migs look like they came out of a tractor factory, not a standard I would want to fly in.

I took into consideration that the finish may have been to absorb radar.

 

I know nothing of aircraft and do not claim to, but as a casual observer the big thing I took away from this was that the "Cold War" was basically a con to feed the US Military manufacturing companies. The US was way ahead in tech and quality compared to Soviets in my opinion.

[BE88]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

It would have been if you told us whom are you referring to, to those of us who are not aviation geeks, here's a question for you, in comparison between a US F16 to a Russian SU35, who do you think will come out the winner in an air battle?

I wish I never knew but maybe we would soon.

 

 

[BE88]

Excited for an instrument of death really pass me the understanding.

[KC 71]

[VocalNeal]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

It would have been if you told us whom are you referring to, to those of us who are not aviation geeks, here's a question for you, in comparison between a US F16 to a Russian SU35, who do you think will come out the winner in an air battle?

How about an F-16 and a Eurofighter????

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

It would have been if you told us whom are you referring to, to those of us who are not aviation geeks, here's a question for you, in comparison between a US F16 to a Russian SU35, who do you think will come out the winner in an air battle?

Which of those planes are British, the only point the OP made?  Regardless. it would depend on the pilots'     abilities.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[cdemundo]

49 minutes ago, BE88 said:

Excited for an instrument of death really pass me the understanding.

In the US this is what you get instead of health care, and basically every other Federal expense that goes begging so the US can spend as much on "Defense" as the next 10 nations combined.

This is what that freakin' hippie Eisenhower warned about, "Military Industrial Complex" I believe he called it.

[Moonlover]

2 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

I assume he means BAE although they did not build all the aircraft shown, they just bought the companies e.g.; English Electric "Lightning" - the Top right aircraft!

English Electric was not bought by BAE at all.

 

English Electric, Vickers and Bristol Aviation were merged together to form the original British Aircraft Corporation. (BAC)

[scottiejohn]

36 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

English Electric was not bought by BAE at all.

 

English Electric, Vickers and Bristol Aviation were merged together to form the original British Aircraft Corporation. (BAC)

Which became BAE!

[VocalNeal]

NASA is still flying the WB57 or English Electric Canberra. (top right in OP's picture) As there are very few aircraft that can stay at 60,000ft.

 

[Moonlover]

57 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

39 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

English Electric was not bought by BAE at all.

 

English Electric, Vickers and Bristol Aviation were merged together to form the original British Aircraft Corporation. (BAC)

 

57 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Which became BAE!

Which in turn became BAE SYSTEMS. I worked for them in all three of their transmigrations and they still pay one of my pensions to this day.

 

46 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

NASA is still flying the WB57 or English Electric Canberra. (top right in OP's picture) As there are very few aircraft that can stay at 60,000ft.

 

Well, that's a bit of a tenuous claim. This aircraft bears little resemblance to The Canberras that I worked on back in the early '60s. These were, in fact Martin B57s built under license, who were at least gracious enough to retain the original name and then much modified for high altitude work. 

 

The Canberra is, I my view, one of the most successful and versatile military aircraft ever built in post war Britain.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Moonlover

[Joe Farang]

4 hours ago, Patong2 said:

I was amazed looking at American F-16 and F-18 and comparing them to Migs (21, 23 and 29) of the same era and the disparity in build quality was enormous. The American planes were meticulously finished. The Migs look like they came out of a tractor factory, not a standard I would want to fly in.

I took into consideration that the finish may have been to absorb radar.

 

I know nothing of aircraft and do not claim to, but as a casual observer the big thing I took away from this was that the "Cold War" was basically a con to feed the US Military manufacturing companies. The US was way ahead in tech and quality compared to Soviets in my opinion.

"I know nothing of aircraft and do not claim to

 

The US was way ahead in tech and quality compared to Soviets in my opinion."

 

Other than bias, what is your opinion based on?

I also know nothing of aircraft, so have no opinion on which may be better.

[billd766]

The photo at the top is missing one of these.

 

I worked on it at Tengah in 1969/1970. I also worked on the Hunters of 1 and 54 Sqn at RAF West Raynham from 1966 to 1968.

[Patong2]

32 minutes ago, Joe Farang said:

"I know nothing of aircraft and do not claim to

 

The US was way ahead in tech and quality compared to Soviets in my opinion."

 

Other than bias, what is your opinion based on?

I also know nothing of aircraft, so have no opinion on which may be better.

Probably best to use cars as a comparison as we know what they are like.

The US fighters had a burnished/polished finish and rivets (few exposed) joins etc or seemed to fit with the streamlining. They looked every part of what they were.

The Soviet craft looked like they came out of a tractor factory with the same standard as you seen on the jeep copies that you see around Patong for hire. They were not in the same class. Maybe not as bad as a Trabant but not great.

 

It is hard to shed bias but I do try. Maybe the Soviet stuff is up to par in performance but I doubt it.

An example where Soviet utilitarian design is better than Western is in the AK47 and SKS variants.

The US AR15 is much better finished etc but hasn't the reliability of the old AK's. But that is the exception I think, not the rule

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

The photo at the top is missing one of these.

 

I worked on it at Tengah in 1969/1970. I also worked on the Hunters of 1 and 54 Sqn at RAF West Raynham from 1966 to 1968.

We were following each other around, except I ended up in Changi rather than Tengah.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Moonlover

[jvs]

6 hours ago, ezzra said:

It would have been if you told us whom are you referring to, to those of us who are not aviation geeks, here's a question for you, in comparison between a US F16 to a Russian SU35, who do you think will come out the winner in an air battle?

I think this is where the pilot and the level of training comes in,you need to

be able to properly handle the equipment.

An Ace pilot will have a great advantage over a newly trained one.

 

[Joe Farang]

1 hour ago, Patong2 said:

Probably best to use cars as a comparison as we know what they are like.

The US fighters had a burnished/polished finish and rivets (few exposed) joins etc or seemed to fit with the streamlining. They looked every part of what they were.

The Soviet craft looked like they came out of a tractor factory with the same standard as you seen on the jeep copies that you see around Patong for hire. They were not in the same class. Maybe not as bad as a Trabant but not great.

 

It is hard to shed bias but I do try. Maybe the Soviet stuff is up to par in performance but I doubt it.

An example where Soviet utilitarian design is better than Western is in the AK47 and SKS variants.

The US AR15 is much better finished etc but hasn't the reliability of the old AK's. But that is the exception I think, not the rule

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.

[BE88]

4 hours ago, cdemundo said:

In the US this is what you get instead of health care, and basically every other Federal expense that goes begging so the US can spend as much on "Defense" as the next 10 nations combined.

This is what that freakin' hippie Eisenhower warned about, "Military Industrial Complex" I believe he called it.

For the military complex for next year, a figure approaching almost 1000 billion dollars is requested to maintain 750 military bases in the world while many banks in the West are or will go bankrupt, while 100,000 young or older die every year from drug use, as a war lost every year.

This military complex will go more and more towards a self-destruction of the US.

The same thing happened with the Roman Empire where its huge military force was supported by non-Romans (who were ex-military in many landowners) who had to be paid punctually, leaving the finances of the state bloodless and when the money did not come more paid was the total collapse of the empire.

 

As has already rightly been repeated many times "The human being never learns his mistakes because it is always the same personal ambitions that prevail.

 

[GinBoy2]

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

 

Which in turn became BAE SYSTEMS. I worked for them in all three of their transmigrations and they still pay one of my pensions to this day.

 

Well, that's a bit of a tenuous claim. This aircraft bears little resemblance to The Canberras that I worked on back in the early '60s. These were, in fact Martin B57s built under license, who were at least gracious enough to retain the original name and then much modified for high altitude work. 

 

The Canberra is, I my view, one of the most successful and versatile military aircraft ever built in post war Britain.

I would agree with that.

 

As a very young engineer working for Rockwell I had the misfortune to see one crash.

 

We were staging through Akrotiri. The RAF was on deployment during gunnery practice, 56 sqn I think. The Canberra towing the drone, #2 engine exploded on takeoff rolled and crashed both pilots killed. Something I will never forget

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

We were following each other around, except I ended up in Changi rather than Tengah.

My original posting to Singapore was 390MU Seletar, (the factory). I hated it and it took me 9 months to escape to 20 Sqn at Tengah.

[Gaccha]

We actually need to see less military production nationalism. As an example, the current problem in Western Europe is that the countries are unwilling to purchase/research new tanks unless they are domestically made/designed tanks. 

 

Poland has ruthlessly, in contrast, chosen to purchase an enormous quantity of Korean tanks. And Ukraine is attempting to get a German manufacturer to stick a new factory in Ukraine. Meanwhile, France, Germany, and the UK are struggling to produce enough tanks for their future needs.

 

BAE working together with other countries' companies with similar values, is a good thing. Aircraft research and production is simply too expensive for one country.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/26/2023 at 3:16 PM, scottiejohn said:

I assume he means BAE although they did not build all the aircraft shown, they just bought the companies e.g.; English Electric "Lightning" - the Top right aircraft!

I assume he means the British aviation industry, not a particular company.

 

They started the industrial revolution and led the world in innovation, but reduced to making "bits" and moving money around now. My, how the mighty has fallen.

 

I blame it on Haig's insane strategy of sending the best and brightest of British male youth to die in futile frontal assaults on the western front. IMO Britain never recovered from that.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/26/2023 at 10:52 PM, billd766 said:

My original posting to Singapore was 390MU Seletar, (the factory). I hated it and it took me 9 months to escape to 20 Sqn at Tengah.

We have something in common. I was posted to Nee Soon and had probably the best 2 years of my life in Singapore ( other than a year in Antarctica ).

I did go back many years later after the SAF took it over and it was tragic how Transit road had become a decrepit wreck of a street. I assume it's all been redeveloped into high rise flats or a 4 lane highway or something now. I didn't even recognise down town anymore.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:11 AM, Gaccha said:

BAE working together with other countries' companies with similar values, is a good thing. Aircraft research and production is simply too expensive for one country.

and yet, Britain built advanced aircraft, and was even building missiles till they decided to buy American instead. Far as I know they did so without any foreign money.

 

The Vulcan, IMO, was the most beautiful bomber ever made, and far more attractive than a B52.

[billd766]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

We have something in common. I was posted to Nee Soon and had probably the best 2 years of my life in Singapore ( other than a year in Antarctica ).

I did go back many years later after the SAF took it over and it was tragic how Transit road had become a decrepit wreck of a street. I assume it's all been redeveloped into high rise flats or a 4 lane highway or something now. I didn't even recognise down town anymore.

The only place in downtown Singapore that I recognise is the Britannia Club on Beach road, and only because it is opposite the Raffles Hotel.

 

It is now the SAF NCO's club and Beach Road is no longer at the beach but some distance inshore.

 

Some parts of RAF Seletar are left, but not much that I recognise. The yacht club slipway is still there and the old Sunderland hangar, but 389/390 MU has gone. The village of Jalan Kayu just outside the main gate is unrecognisable now.

 

Much of RAF Tengah is the same but the village outside the gates has disappeared. It is now SAF Tengah air base.