Spin Off From "story Of My Thai Citizenship Application" Thread

[ovenman]

1m baht (24,000E) would get you 5+ years of relative security. If you wanted, after 3 years apply for the PR.

'Fraid not. The visa associated with the Elite Card is considered a tourist visa for immigration purposes. The prerequisite for a permanent residence application is three uninterrupted one year extensions on a non-immigrant visa.

[Kerryd]

But it is renewable (well, supposedly according the the current literature). Might still be a suitable alternative for a young person of means. Who knows what the (visa/immigration) situation will be like in a year or 5's time.

[asiaworld]

Well if you've read the OP ,all he wants is security for his family future, which unfortunately he's not going to get ! Comparatively! Thai Elite is a PRIVATE COMPANY , so if it dissolves in5 yrs time, who'll cry .. On the other hand ALL U PROUD PR holders !! WAKE UP !! Can you name any other place on earth where PR/Green card holder AS RESTRICTED AS HERE ?!?>> examples: with PR > U still NEED WORK PERMIT , Still no advantage over tourist in PROPERTY OWNERSHIP , Still Require annual Re-entry endorsments<AND LOSE PR IF SPEND A YEAR OUT OF COUNTRY> !!

i can continue my list , but whats the point . . .

[longway]

Well if you've read the OP ,all he wants is security for his family future, which unfortunately he's not going to get ! Comparatively! Thai Elite is a PRIVATE COMPANY , so if it dissolves in5 yrs time, who'll cry .. On the other hand ALL U PROUD PR holders !! WAKE UP !! Can you name any other place on earth where PR/Green card holder AS RESTRICTED AS HERE ?!?>> examples: with PR > U still NEED WORK PERMIT , Still no advantage over tourist in PROPERTY OWNERSHIP , Still Require annual Re-entry endorsments<AND LOSE PR IF SPEND A YEAR OUT OF COUNTRY> !!

i can continue my list , but whats the point . . .

i thought the main advantage of pr is that even if you lose your job/spouse etc you can still stay in the country without the need for a new visa. secondly pr is a route to citzenship, though i dont think there are that many takers for that in this board anyway.

anyway why compare thailand to the uk/usa etc. why not compare its laws with malaysia/phillipines/vietnam/china/india etc isnt that a better way to gauge its regulations. maybe even compare to south american countries. . the immigration requirements maybe annoying but as far as i can tell they are pretty much on par with other comparable countries. far from perfect and perhaps not that sensible, but still ok for the most part.

secondly women who marry thai men get citizenship dont they? or is that no longer the case.

[asiaworld]

anyway why compare thailand to the uk/usa etc. why not compare its laws with malaysia/phillipines/vietnam/china/india etc isnt that a better way to gauge its regulations. maybe even compare to south american countries. . the immigration requirements maybe annoying but as far as i can tell they are pretty much on par with other comparable countries. far from perfect and perhaps not that sensible, but still ok for the most part.

secondly women who marry thai men get citizenship dont they? or is that no longer the case.

Pls read my previous post ^^ i do compare, it's SOO MUCH easier in any of the ""3rd world"" you've mentioned . Even thou yes> UK, US, Malaysia process may be more complex, but also more rewarding ! These 3 countries guarantee you protection by law against any <local smartarse pointing their finger @ you with OY F@RuNG >Sh*T

As 4 Phil, VN or South America can't think of an easier places to get PR for a person of means ..

[longway]

anyway why compare thailand to the uk/usa etc. why not compare its laws with malaysia/phillipines/vietnam/china/india etc isnt that a better way to gauge its regulations. maybe even compare to south american countries. . the immigration requirements maybe annoying but as far as i can tell they are pretty much on par with other comparable countries. far from perfect and perhaps not that sensible, but still ok for the most part.

secondly women who marry thai men get citizenship dont they? or is that no longer the case.

Pls read my previous post ^^ i do compare, it's SOO MUCH easier in any of the ""3rd world"" you've mentioned . Even thou yes> UK, US, Malaysia process may be more complex, but also more rewarding ! These 3 countries guarantee you protection by law against any <local smartarse pointing their finger @ you with OY F@RuNG >Sh*T

As 4 Phil, VN or South America can't think of an easier places to get PR for a person of means ..

are u sure its that much easier? india for instance limits buying land to indian citizens or people who can prove they are of indian origin. there are ways to circumvent this i am sure ofcourse. i think pr here is easy for a person with money too. a girl i know who has an indian nationality bf fixed his pr pretty easily. or so she tells me anyway. if these countries do have a more enlightened immigration policy i sincerely hope thailand follows suit.

baf may hv a point but i think he's like a child seeing everything from only his POV and only in black and white. are things here perfect and stable. far from it. thaland has long way to go before it will become 'fair' or stable.if you want garanteed stability you wont get it here, if you can stand a 'bumpy' ride thailand is not that bad.

my origin is asian from uganda, so pls dont tell me how xenophobic thailand is, i also have biz interest in russia like its just so unxenophobic there

to make my point here a list of countries with similar gdp to thailand

79 Dominica 4,181 2005

80 Suriname 4,081 2002

81 Belize 4,028 2005

82 Bulgaria 3,995 2006

83 Jamaica 3,952 2005

84 Belarus 3,808 2005

85 Dominican Republic 3,653 2004

86 Fiji 3,454 2000

87 Algeria 3,413 2005

88 Peru 3,374 2005

89 Thailand 3,136 2005

90 Namibia 3,084 1994

91 Republic of Macedonia 3,059 2005

92 Iran 3,046 2005

93 Ecuador 2,987 2001

94 Tunisia 2,982 2004

95 Albania 2,899 2001

96 Colombia 2,888 2005

97 Maldives 2,864 2004

98 Angola 2,758 2000

99 El Salvador 2,619 2005

take your choice is thailand really THAT bad. in comparsion with the other choices available.

[BAF]

You put forth good arguments,in well written form,and it would be good to see these skills applied to other topics.

I used to do that (under another screen name) and... thanks mellow1

Also,I have no idea why you would even want to live here.

In other threads I have written at length about that but in short: I lived for years in Thailand for the "edonistic lifestyle" (read: whoring, boozing and generally speaking partying my ass off) I could not afford in the West. Living what I would call a "normal life" is much more safe and enjoyable in my home country, and to be honest even said "edonistic lifestyle" would be much more safe and enjoyable in my homecountry (and even more so in some other Western countries) but it would be infinitely more expensive and far out of my reach...

That is it in a nutshell. I never came here nor pretended to be here for the weather, the food or "the culture" (whatever the latter means): all of these are WAY better back at home.

Thailand's cultural setting makes for a VERY good "naughty" playground and the funny thing is that the very same issues I talk about here and criticize about Thailand and the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologists deny/defend are exactly what is holding (and will be holding for the foreseeable future) Thailand back as a 3rd world country and what allows me to enjoy Thailand as a single man (and prevents me to live in Thailand as a married man)

You don't have a Thai wife,

I do, and that's why I left Thailand

not looking to live in a cheaper manner because you are on a pension.Your young,go do things for a better future and stay away from 3rd world countries.Come on vacation have fun and go somewhere else to live.Living here and coming for a vacation is by far not the same. Good luck to you BAF.

Read back the thread and you will find our plans mentioned here. Thanks for the good wishes!

[BAF]

I think the easiest solution would be to buy a Thai Elite card, complete with the 5 year renewable visa. From what I've seen/heard, none of the hoops to jump through that would be required with most other visas.

I actually tought about that when I was single and they introduced it (BTW its very existence is quite telling of the state of the country and the society, isn' it?).

At the time there still was the investment visa, multiple entries tourist visas were easy to get and back-to-back 30 days visa runs were no problem and since the only value of the card was, to me, the 5 years visa I decided to wait and see since the Thai elite Card has always seemed, almost from its very inception, on the verge of being scrapped.

1m baht (24,000E) would get you 5+ years of relative security. If you wanted, after 3 years apply for the PR.

Nope, as ovenman has already told you the 5 years visa is not a valid base on which to ask for PR and, as asiaworld has already told you, the card comes from a PRIVATE COMPANY and since it's a Thaksin's brainchild and it's losing money the whole thing is on very shaky ground, now more than ever.

You say "Who knows what the (visa/immigration) situation will be like in a year or 5's time.", well: who knows what will be of the € 24,000 "5 years renewable visas" in 1 or 5 years time!

I don't have any real problems with Thailand's policies regarding immigration/citizenship. Pretty complicated (in some cases for the layman), but they have their reasons. If they had lax policies that made it easy for any and everyone to move here, the country would be flooded with immigrants in short order.

Why are they trying so hard to attract more and more tourists then..? And why do they even have a sort of retirement visa?

And what has it to do with spouses of Thai citizens and fathers or mothers of Thai citizens??

Many would come from Thailand's poorer neighbours of course.

Many are already coming (legally and illegally) to be exploited in LOS and be sent back once they are not needed anymore...

Some would be upright, self-supporting, decent "westerners". Many would be less well-off "hippy/backpacker" stereotypes with little or no means of supporting themselves.

Where is the problem? It's worth repeating that the latest official Thai govt stats say that for Q1 2007 the average Thai wage still is THB 7709 (USD 258, EUR 188, GBP 127) and that this isn't a welfare state type of country and if they really wanted to discriminate between those with "means of supporting themselves" and those without where is the visa for the wealthy under 50s?? Where is the investment visa (backpackers with little or no means of supporting themselves aren't going to be buying 3 millions baht condos, are they?)??

Citizenship in a country and the priveleges that come with it, should be earned, not handed out like prizes in a box of cereal. If you have to work to earn citizenship, you'll appreciate it more than if it was just handed to you. If you really want it, then you'll do what is required to get it.

Is this meant to apply only to Thailand or can we apply this to our homecountries as well and stop handing out like prizes in a box of cereal the PRs, citizenships, universal work permits, land ownership rights, business ownership rights etc etc we give to Thais?

[BAF]

anyway why compare thailand to the uk/usa etc. why not compare its laws with malaysia/phillipines/vietnam/china/india etc isnt that a better way to gauge its regulations.

Maybe because this is THAIvisa and we live/have an interest in/a bond with Thailand and not with Malaysia/Phillipines/Vietnam/China/India?

I am married to a Thai and not to a Malaysian/Phillipina/Vietnamese/Chinese/Indian.

That said, the countries in the same region as Thailand which I know the immi laws of (because I have an interest in and I would consider them as alternatives to Thailand) have ALL easier regs than Thailand (for example Philippines and Cambodia) and...

maybe even compare to south american countries.

... they (or at the least the ones I know the immi laws of) have ALL easier regs than Thailand!

For example, if I were married to a Brazilian I would get a Brazilian Alien Resident Card in less than 2 months!

If I were married to a Mexican I would get a FM3 (1 year renewable permit of stay) with proof of a monthly income of € 570 or half that (€ 285, Baht 11700) if I own a house in Mexico (yes I can!) and after two years I can get Mexican citizenship!

. the immigration requirements maybe annoying but as far as i can tell they are pretty much on par with other comparable countries.

It's just because you do not know what you are talking about! See examples above.

far from perfect and perhaps not that sensible, but still ok for the most part.

Do I take it that you would be OK with sending Thais residing in the West back to their smiling homecountry?

secondly women who marry thai men get citizenship dont they? or is that no longer the case.

They are exempted from the prerequisite of getting PR before applying for citizenship and that's not to favor foreign women but to favor Thai Men (only foreign women MARRIED TO THAI MEN are exempted)... Another telling indicator of the true values at the base of the Thai society.

[BAF]

to make my point here a list of countries with similar gdp to thailand

Can I ask you what on earth has one country's GDP to do with its immigration laws (bearing also in mind that 1st world countries apart practically no one else are welfare state types of country)??

Besides, I have already provided you examples of countries with both lower and higher GPD (and, much more importantly, GDP per capita) than Thailand with far easier immi laws...

[longway]

Can I ask you what on earth has one country's GDP to do with its immigration laws (bearing also in mind that 1st world countries apart practically no one else are welfare state types of country)??

btw the list i have provided is a gdp per capita list.

the only VALID comparison is with countries in a similar stage of development.

you make the point that thai citizens are treated so much more fairly in uk/usa/eu etc. how well are thai citizens treated in thailand? do they have access to fair and just laws? are they enforced fairly among thai citizens?

you know the answer to these questions. why do you think you should have access to fairness/stability thais themselves dont have?

look at the countries above and below thailand in per capita gdp then decide how good or bad it is here in thailand.

thx for the info that visa regs are easier than thailand in phillipines/VN/etc. i didnt know. i have felt the regs here are silly but tolerable for me within my personal circumstances.

trying to compare visa regs between here and home is nonsensical IMHO. they will never be simliar nor is there any reason that they should be similiar.

Do I take it that you would be OK with sending Thais residing in the West back to their smiling homecountry?

if they break their visa regs then yes.

Many are already coming (legally and illegally) to be exploited in LOS and be sent back once they are not needed anymore...

if i may answer this. yes they are treated like shit, but they still flood here. why is that? it because thailand compared to their country of birth is far better. sad but true.

[BAF]

the only VALID comparison is with countries in a similar stage of development.

The fact that there are MANY countries with BOTH lower and higher (and some with much lower and much higher) GDP per capita and far easier immi laws proves that GDP per capita isn't the important factor you think it is.

Far more important are the society's perception of foreigners and the perceived possible pros and cons of allowing them into the country.

you make the point that thai citizens are treated so much more fairly in uk/usa/eu etc. how well are thai citizens treated in thailand? do they have access to fair and just laws? are they enforced fairly among thai citizens?

You don't get it.

Thais can get PRs, get citizenships, own land, work any job and be allowed to stay with their spouse and children in both the West AND Thailand, Westerners get all of that ONLY in their own homecountries.

you know the answer to these questions. why do you think you should have access to fairness/stability thais themselves dont have?

I am advocating being treated in Thailand as a Thai since Thais are treated in my homecountry as Italians.

I am clearly NOT saying that I should be treated in Thailand like I would be treated in my homecountry since, obviously, what I have at home is not available in Thailand even to the Thais themselves.

look at the countries above and below thailand in per capita gdp then decide how good or bad it is here in thailand.

I have already done that, haven't you read?

Thailand is one of the most xenophobic country in the world.

For example, a Gallup International Voice of the People survey about the people's perception of immigration as a mainly good or mainly bad thing found in 2005 that (snippets):

"THE PHILIPPINES is globally the friendliest country to migrants, while Thailand has the biggest number of xenophobic citizens." [incidentally, may I point out to you that the Philippines have a much lower GDP per capita than Thailand and are from the same region as Thailand?]

"The study found 87 percent of Filipinos believing that immigration is good for the country"

"Topping Asia and the world in animosity toward migrants at 82 percent is Thailand"

trying to compare visa regs between here and home is nonsensical IMHO. they will never be simliar

If you don't think that the reasons for them are Thailand's xenophobia and racism then why do you think "they will never be simliar" when so many other 3rd world countries (both richer and poorer than Thailand) do have far easier laws??

nor is there any reason that they should be similiar.

What are the reasons for which we are allowing Thais into our homecountries?

Do I take it that you would be OK with sending Thais residing in the West back to their smiling homecountry?

if they break their visa regs then yes.

I meant: change our visa regs to match theirs and send them back home.

Why should we allow them to reside in the West?

Many are already coming (legally and illegally) to be exploited in LOS and be sent back once they are not needed anymore...

if i may answer this. yes they are treated like shit, but they still flood here. why is that? it because thailand compared to their country of birth is far better. sad but true.

And the point was: for those reasons they are ALREADY coming (legally and illegally) in Thailand so your defense that easier immi laws would mean a flood of poor immigrants is groundless.

Besides, if that really was a concern, Thais already have much different rules for different nationalities so they could just make less hard the ones applying to "richer" immigrants...

[steveromagnino]

BAF

It is pretty clear that you think that Thai people should be treated similarly to how you are treated in Thailand as a non-Thai. You advocate that 'we' westerners should start telling Thais to leave and influence govt policy where possible, to teach them a lesson.

Since you want to make an example of someone, and force others to suffer, how about starting with sending your wife back and giving 'Thai people' a taste of their sour immigration policies??

Most of the posts that you seem to write off as Thai apologist drivel are simply stating the reality that Thailand has no great desire for people in your position of not wanting to work nor of a certain age, and you can complain as much as you want; it probably isn't going to change. It isn't saying that the policies are right or wrong, although there most certainly are two ways to look at things. You seem to inteprete anyone not saying 'poor BAF it IS so unfair' as justifying the existing policies; re-read and I think you'll see most are not.

Your belief that changing immigration law would be a monster driver of economic growth is almost laughable in a country of 60 million people which has the ability to somehow attract the dregs of the western world as it is with the existing xenophobic laws you refer to; Thailand has a myriad of problems including many of the reasons why you don't want to live here (corruption, poor infrastructure, regulated markets, poor education system, entrenched sex industry, lack of competition, inefficient financial markets with lack of controls and suspect corporate governance, etc). If you can convince anyone in power that allowing some husbands who choose not to work and want to live here is somehow going to fix all of the above...well best of luck...and you'll get your VISA.

In the meantime, as i said earlier, it sounds like the policies here are not right for you, and clearly you would be better off somewhere else. Enjoy :-)

[asiaworld]

karibu longway , it's nice 2 see, we've got a good 'melting pot' here on TV . Anyway we r here, because, we like Thailand, and care for it to become better ! You had HALF a point in your statement ! Yes what Idi did back than, was outrageous Sh*T , but it still not the point, you see in africa & former Soviets there's EQUALITY> coz everyone is treated more/less same: BADly !!

Would it open your eyes,that few yrs back i could easily get Ugandan/Gambian/Bissauan PR in south China for as little as 5,000EUR, complete with 10 yrs visa/ID card !! i had friends of mine chinese married in Russia & getting Russian ppt in WEEKS time !! IS THAT XENOPHOBIA ! You know Africa IS a 'free 4 all' society, and if we choose it & than treated badly , it's same for blacks/white/asians ! But for all the right/wrong reasons, we've chosen Thailand ! Also i am VERY understanding to the Thai policy concerning the families : Now name any other country on earth , where you can get married after half an hour on a barstool, and have your pick at that ! Being here for many yeas, NOT for the reasons of p#ssy , i've learned that the family values here are very different, so think can anyone change THAT first ! Thailand had an open door for some investment/ business opportunities(with appropriate visas,which r still honored) , now that door is closed. . such is life . .

[longway]

The fact that there are MANY countries with BOTH lower and higher (and some with much lower and much higher) GDP per capita and far easier immi laws proves that GDP per capita isn't the important factor you think it is.

Far more important are the society's perception of foreigners and the perceived possible pros and cons of allowing them into the country.

i disagree with you, gdp per capita is very important as once it reaches a certain level it implies that a large section of society is middle class, which in turn give rise to the priority of fairness, justice, stability, education, mass travel, reduction of corrution, ability to enforce laws etc.

its at that point you expect countries to have more enlightened laws and regualtions esp. toward immigrants. if you think gdp per capita is not important why is it all the countries with very liberal immigration policies have very high gdp per capita.

you go into eastern europe with its lower standard of living then suddenly you are confronted with the reality of the ingrained and nasty nature of european xenophobia and racism.

Thailand is one of the most xenophobic country in the world.

i think thailand is one of the most nationilistic countries in the world, and its perhaps a short step to xenophobia from there. personally i think the average thai is as xenophobic as anybody else. i think the xenophobia exists and is used and exploited by politicians, but for the most part its overstated by people on this board, at least it applies to farangs. personally i think most farnags on here overestimate their own importnace in this country.

i do wonder if the reason for the xenophobia in that survey is the flood of migrants thiland has had from burma and cambodia, not to mention their problems in the south. xenophobia towards these people is high IMO anyway.

What are the reasons for which we are allowing Thais into our homecountries?

I meant: change our visa regs to match theirs and send them back home.

Why should we allow them to reside in the West?

you know you act like its impossible to live here. its not. the regs may not match the west, but there is no reason why they should. when thiland's economy reaches the same level as italy's then you can talk about it, until then its a bit silly IMHO.

Edited August 7, 2007 by longway

[samran]

Most of the posts that you seem to write off as Thai apologist drivel are simply stating the reality that Thailand has no great desire for people in your position of not wanting to work nor of a certain age, and you can complain as much as you want; it probably isn't going to change. It isn't saying that the policies are right or wrong, although there most certainly are two ways to look at things. You seem to inteprete anyone not saying 'poor BAF it IS so unfair' as justifying the existing policies; re-read and I think you'll see most are not.

Get your hand off it steveo.

I mean, what you know about moving to a new country with no saleable skill anyway?

[steveromagnino]

i disagree with you, gdp per capita is very important as once it reaches a certain level it implies that a large section of society is middle class, which in turn give rise to the priority of fairness, justice, stability, education, mass travel, reduction of corrution, ability to enforce laws etc.

its at that point you expect countries to have more enlightened laws and regualtions esp. toward immigrants. if you think gdp per capita is not important why is it all the countries with very liberal immigration policies have very high gdp per capita.

you go into eastern europe with its lower standard of living then suddenly you are confronted with the reality of the ingrained and nasty nature of european xenophobia and racism.

Interesting. I would say for the majority of countries, in order to generate high GDP per capita requires a shift from a manufacturing/commodity based economy to a value add mindset. There are a few exceptions in the past (e.g. Nauru with phosphate, some of the oil laden countries in the middle east) where the only skill seems to be being born on top of something in the dirt, but the majority of countries with high GDP required high skills. At this point, sheer labour numbers aren't enough; you need a series of entrepreneurs creating disruptive technology and paradigm shifts; you need to create net new jobs as the labour intensive industries move abroad, and the easiest way is...... get them from abroad; it costs a lot more to move a country's working class into the middle class and into entrepreneurs than simply cherry picking the best from around the world.

Hence, you see a country like India, creating thousands and thousands of doctors, dentists, IT experts etc....who migrate to USA, UK, Australia, etc. It is ironic, AFAIK India borrowed heavily abroad to create their worldclass education system; really the developed world should be paying India for providing such a good supply of quality workers. I guess in some ways it is much like yacht racing, EPL and much of life, the rich get richer. The so called easy immigration laws for say USA or the UK? Well, amazingly easy to move and live there.... if you have money, education or special skills. Otherwise....not so easy with a few exceptions for refugees, marriage, etc.

At a certain point, most countries develop a welfare system, because they are sufficiently rich to start looking after the lower classes; at least enough to avoid riots, crime waves and so on. Refugees, donations to the UN/basket cases, paying carbon tax, etc are all effectively deadweights on the economy, but a wealthy country can be relatively more generous with regards to giving out favours and benefits for many of these, since it is a small burden.

I think it is highly debateable whether, if Thailand significantly loosened restrictions on the economy, that the level of skill brought in would be enough to counteract the considerable dead weight on the economy of non working people coming here who would seem, based on reading this thread, to show a propensity for spending in the areas of the economy which create no value add for the long term growth of THailand, such as the sex and bar industries, and consider working here in the developing country with all its problems, to be beneath them. Compared to the importance of say, deregulating the energy industry, a national roading policy, getting rid of the dependence on tourism and developing a national education system, it would be pretty difficult to suggest with a straight face that a more open immigration policy and subsequent expansion of Bangkok's red light districts (if we are to believe that BAF's previous time spent in Thailand is in any way representative of the typical foreigner wanting to come here) is going to resolve the major issues Thailand is going to face if it wishes to move forward from here.

Like NZ, if a country can only have a certain number of immigrants a year (NZ is I think 20,000 net) then why not try to get the best ones? 100 per year per nationality we would be talking potentially 10,000 per year easily - why should the country want to welcome someone who is a drain rather than a tap? [bTW nice little strawman set up there, comparing 2.9m migrants TOTAL with 100 a year from Italy to Thailand per year; stick to apples with apples :-) khun mai chai saparot]

Edited August 7, 2007 by steveromagnino

[BAF]

BAF

It is pretty clear that you think that Thai people should be treated similarly to how you are treated in Thailand as a non-Thai. You advocate that 'we' westerners should start telling Thais to leave and influence govt policy where possible, to teach them a lesson.

Since you want to make an example of someone, and force others to suffer, how about starting with sending your wife back and giving 'Thai people' a taste of their sour immigration policies??

steveromagnino,

it doesn't look like a sure thing, far from it, still there is the possibility that you would understand what is "pretty clear" that I think if you started addressing (point by point and reading and writing slowly) the replies that you got from me in this very thread...

I am not holding my breath.

Edited August 7, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

The fact that there are MANY countries with BOTH lower and higher (and some with much lower and much higher) GDP per capita and far easier immi laws proves that GDP per capita isn't the important factor you think it is.

Far more important are the society's perception of foreigners and the perceived possible pros and cons of allowing them into the country.

i disagree with you, gdp per capita is very important as once it reaches a certain level it implies that a large section of society is middle class, which in turn give rise to the priority of fairness, justice, stability, education, mass travel, reduction of corrution, ability to enforce laws etc.

So why there are MANY countries with BOTH lower and higher (and some with much lower and much higher) GDP per capita and far easier immigration laws than Thailand?

its at that point you expect countries to have more enlightened laws and regualtions esp. toward immigrants. if you think gdp per capita is not important why is it all the countries with very liberal immigration policies have very high gdp per capita.

So why in that Gallup survey the Philippines, with a much lower GDP per capita than Thailand and from the same region as Thailand, is globally the friendliest country to migrants and Thailand has the biggest number of xenophobic citizens?

Why most if not all Latin American countries with comparable or lower GDP per capita have far easier immigration laws than Thailand?

you go into eastern europe with its lower standard of living then suddenly you are confronted with the reality of the ingrained and nasty nature of european xenophobia and racism.

True, still that "nasty nature of european xenophobia and racism" is LESS nasty than Thailand's and translates into easier immigration laws than Thailand!

Thailand is one of the most xenophobic country in the world.

i think thailand is one of the most nationilistic countries in the world, and its perhaps a short step to xenophobia from there.

More BS, the USA and France, to name just two, are amongst the most nationalistic countries out there and still, look at their immigration policies!

Edited August 7, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

personally i think the average thai is as xenophobic as anybody else.

Personally I think you are clueless about Thai culture and society. And what is worse, you refuse the data and facts spoon-fed to you.

i think the xenophobia exists and is used and exploited by politicians, but for the most part its overstated by people on this board, at least it applies to farangs. personally i think most farnags on here overestimate their own importnace in this country.

Let's close (immigration wise) our countries to Thailand (just like Thailand does to us) and see how important we are to them and how they to us...

i do wonder if the reason for the xenophobia in that survey is the flood of migrants thiland has had from burma and cambodia, not to mention their problems in the south. xenophobia towards these people is high IMO anyway.

So it's not xenophobia, racism and classism if it's not directed towards us eh..?

Do you come from a low GDP per capita country?

you know you act like its impossible to live here. its not. the regs may not match the west, but there is no reason why they should

"No reason why they should", you have already said that and I have already asked: what are the reasons for which we are allowing Thais into our homecountries?

MAYBE replying to my question you would see those reasons.

Maybe.

. when thiland's economy reaches the same level as italy's then you can talk about it, until then its a bit silly IMHO.

So why there are VERY MANY countries whose economy is far below the level of Italy's with much easier immigration laws than Thailand?

And do you know what is a "bit silly"? It's keeping to drone on about your groundless theories avoiding to address the hard facts and datas presented to you which disproving them and the counter-arguments confuting your Thai culture-ignorant opinions...

Typical of the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade.

Edited August 7, 2007 by BAF

[steveromagnino]

steveromagnino,

it doesn't look like a sure thing, far from it, still there is the possibility that you would understand what is "pretty clear" that I think if you started addressing (point by point and reading and writing slowly) the replies that you got from me in this very thread...

I am not holding my breath.

I think I get that you believe:

- Thailand is super xenophobic

- you aren't allowed to live here and should be

- Italy is much easier to immigrate to for Thais than for you to come here

- There are many countries with a more lax immigration policy that are easier to get into than Thailand, some with higher GDP per capita, and some with lower

Is that about it?

OK, I agree with you. I still don't 'get' how any sort of a farang boycott is going to solve or change anything, and have kindly offered a few examples of contacting someone to support cases such as yours (as Gulu Lalvani did, as i have done for some things that have been changed in Bangkok); the concept of flicking your wife back to Thailand to punish Thailand by choosing to

'close (immigration wise) our countries to Thailand (just like Thailand does to us) and see how important we are to them and how they to us...',

and commented on how unlikely it is that talking on a webboard about Thailand to various english teachers, SME type business men, a few expat management and a bunch of people living abroad is going to help with any sort of actual action.

You seem simply unwilling to accept that there is no VISA category in this country for people in your circumstance. That's tought luck and I hope you work things out to your advantage. But how you can claim this is unjust or unfair beats me; every country has the right to decide who they want or don't want; it may be stupid or smart, but it.... well it just is unless you get off your butt and do something about it. Last I heard you and your wife didn't want to live and work in a 3rd world country and you were wanting to work as a nurse in USA I thought???!

If you want to summarise your key questions, I'll have a shot at answering them, but wading through 10 pages of commentary that seems to only relate to your individual situation has me baffled as to what possible information i could provide to you to assist other than providing you with more opportunities to talk about this mysterious group of Thailand Apologists .

I do recall one question, asking how long to become a citizen however. OK, 3 years of work permits, and you get PR theoretically within a few months, but practically can be longer. I know people who have done it within around 3 months after applying. Theoretically 2 years after getting PR, you can apply for citizenship; but applications can take a little longer. If you are the type of person Thailand wants (and the window is not that wide), then in theory as little as 5 years from scratch, but more practically around 6-10.

My friends going to NZ are now bound by stricter requirements than in the past; it used to be asfter 3 years of living in NZ that they could apply for citzenship, now changed to 5 - that means 5 years of living the majority of your time there; processing time is around 8 months. You must already have PR to apply for this, how you get that...who knows, I think it takes a couple of years or so, and you have to meet certain requirements of education, language, etc. I understand this whole process can be fast tracked via marriage; I am so against this you would not believe; as I know countless people of bad character who have entered NZ via this method; many many Thais included.

So...all in all, similar time frame for all except marriage category. Hence the ability to find lots of prostitutes now in NZ staying legally thanks to marriages of convenience. Wonderful for the whoremongers, not so good for the country.

Edited August 7, 2007 by steveromagnino

[samran]

this mysterious group of Thailand Apologists .

Apparently I'm in this group.....

But as you know stevo, I am neither sexy, or mysterious.

[steveromagnino]

this mysterious group of Thailand Apologists .

Apparently I'm in this group.....

But as you know stevo, I am neither sexy, or mysterious.

yeah. For a white guy you sure do seem to know a lot about Thailand. You must be one of those guys that wishes he was Thai.

You must also be really stupid; why would anyone any good want to live and work here other than sl*ts? Which is why a more open immigration policy will be great; we can attract even more people that don't want to come here.

[samran]

this mysterious group of Thailand Apologists .

Apparently I'm in this group.....

But as you know stevo, I am neither sexy, or mysterious.

yeah. For a white guy you sure do seem to know a lot about Thailand. You must be one of those guys that wishes he was Thai.

You must also be really stupid; why would anyone any good want to live and work here other than sl*ts? Which is why a more open immigration policy will be great; we can attract even more people that don't want to come here.

Hey, don't call me a sl*t.

I prefer to be known as a corporate prostitute.

[asiaworld]

i see u're being drown in blind anger BAF , not helpful . Instead lets employ our most prominent (as u say thai apologist) THIS post is for you SAMRAN ( & maybe also heng??) . You can give good advise & sometimes reproof ! But look @ yourselves : you're in that very special 'luk kreung' category . Samran i've red what happened to your mother,

good for you , you had OZ to accept & naturalise your family !! But look at all these disgrunted posters from the point of them being fathers of thai kids !! HOW would you feel IF YOUR family would not be allowed to stay together !! IF YOUR FATHER WOULD BE CONSIDERED ALIEN, or somewhat better than a monkey in eyes of people .. Now that could even make U hate Thailand .. . ouch !! So why don't you guys use your newly obtained Thainess in order to influense & change the mindset of people here, also government , now that could bring some result .. I bet your father still has nothing more than Ozzy ppt sad..

Edited August 7, 2007 by asiaworld

[BAF]

I think I get that you believe:

No, you don't.

You are just repeating random parts of your same old arguments to which I have already replied (to you and others) several times on this very thread.

I have suggested you go back and address (point by point) the replies that you had already got from me here and which you have left and are still leaving unanswered.

P.S.

yeah. For a white guy you sure do seem to know a lot about Thailand. You must be one of those guys that wishes he was Thai.

I don't know what kind of joke this is meant to be but he is half Thai and has Thai citizenship so he doesn't have to deal with ANY of the issues we have been talking about here...

[steveromagnino]

I think I get that you believe:

No, you don't.

You are just repeating random parts of your same old arguments to which I have already replied (to you and others) several times on this very thread.

I have suggested you go back and address (point by point) the replies that you had already got from me here and which you have left and are still leaving unanswered.

If I don't get what you believe, then can you summarise what you want me to answer? 10 pages and you have a fair idea of what questions are left hanging; this is something I have no read in its entirity, so I cannot be sure what has and hasn't be answered. Simply summarise you main questions, and I'll have a shot :-) Cheers.

[longway]

Typical of the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade.

tbh i find u a dreamer. you seem to able to hold to opinons with a 100% pure cast iron certainty from what is a very uncertain complictated world. i honestly beleive you are a naive, short sighted and self centred child. are 13 yo? you need to grow up.

So why there are MANY countries with BOTH lower and higher (and some with much lower and much higher) GDP per capita and far easier immigration laws than Thailand?

i will tell u again thailand is not NOT the most xenophobic country in the world. just read the news, look around, open your eyes, its almost blidingly obvious. its amazing that i live in the most xenophobic country in the world and it just doesnt affect me. i spent 2 days in east germany and it was blindinly obvious how racist they are. my 13yo cousin in russia (half chinese and half indian) got set upon in broad daylight by 3 grown men who beat him senseless.

i dont give a flying ###### that 'immigration rules' are a bit easier. its a shit place for foreigners, whereas thailand is not.

So it's not xenophobia, racism and classism if it's not directed towards us eh..?

if your going to embark on a campaign about improving the lot of these guys then im with you. if your going to go into acontextual whine about how unfair immigration rules for you. kiss my ass.

when you were in thailand did you actually ever pull your head out of your ass long enough to see where you were. you are in a poor 3rd world country beset by a myriad of problems. this petty bs about unfairness of immigration rules is just pointless and stupid.

[asiaworld]

ONE thing i Strongly Disagree ! Thailand IS NOT your Third World country !! i choose to spend my time here, because it's SAFE, VERY WELL DEVELOPED , also can make good living ! Now i've been in over 50 countries, and could live in UK for example, but i consider There to be a third world, NOT HERE.. You've got more beggars bums & poverty in ANY EU country, than here.. here people have more dignity than that . Hey none of us would be here IF it was SOOO bad eh ..

Edited August 7, 2007 by asiaworld

[BAF]

i see u're being drown in blind anger BAF , not helpful .

Don't worry I'm not in anger, maybe it was the bold and underlined texts which have made you think so but thery weren't meant to be the written equal of shouting, they were meant to help them by highlighting the important bits on which to focus their thought process (and their replies)...

Not helpful I agree, they are still ignoring them and going on about their fairy world

Instead lets employ our most prominent (as u say thai apologist) THIS post is for you SAMRAN ( & maybe also heng??) .

Heng has already given his answer and that is (quoting verbatim from his post #53): "As mentioned, if you put yourself in an "impossible situation," who's fault is it?"

It says it all really...

Now let's hear from samran (not that he hasn't already answered, just read the thread...)