Ownership nightmare: British buyer’s 15 million baht condo purchase in Koh Samui hits legal roadblock

[quake]

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

What is a "WUM"?

WUM, Wind-Up Merchant"

The other one I had to look up on this thread was

FOMO, fear of missing out. 

 

To many abbreviations now days.

 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

14 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Sure not all, but many of the "rent don't buy"-sayers do not really have the choice, I guess.

If I invested my money in property here in the LOS when 1st I moved here in 2015, according to my calculations, I would have gone backwards.

 

What I have made from my investments far exceeds what, if any rise property has had in Thailand since then.

 

I don't rent, I build a nice big and comfortable house, yes, as far as the law goes, it's the wife's, and yes I could challenge that and prove that I paid for it and maybe, just maybe get 50% back if we ever split, hardly worth the exercise after lawyers and court fees so it would be all hers.

 

As the saying goes, only invest as much as your prepared to lose, and for me personally investing in property in Thailand is a BIG NO, having had a property background all of my life, it is too easy to get scammed here, even your own lawyer will sell his soul to the other side.

 

Sure heaps of foreigners have pushased and are happy with their purchases, and there would be a fair few who we wouldn't hear about that got scammed.

 

More money to be made elsewhere than property here IMO.

 

I could have also rented and still made good money after my rent was paid, suffice to say, buying property here is not an investment, i.e. if your looking for a small return, e.g. on average over the past 7 years I have made 18% net per annum on my investments, so I doubt my return on property here would be anywhere near that.

 

But each to there own, no rights, no wrongs, if it fits, wear it.

 

 

 

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

23 minutes ago, quake said:

Too many abbreviations now days.

I do believe that the word you are looking for is

 

ACRONYMS 

 

[quake]

3 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

I do believe that the word you are looking for is

 

ACRONYMS 

 

Yes your right could not think what it was at the time.   

Do you think there are to many now days. 

Like the alphabet people  ( LGBTQW XYZ or what ever it is ) ?

 

 

[MadMuhammad]

7 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

If I invested my money in property here in the LOS when 1st I moved here in 2015, according to my calculations, I would have gone backwards.

 

What I have made from my investments far exceeds what, if any rise property has had in Thailand since then.

 

I don't rent, I build a nice big and comfortable house, yes, as far as the law goes, it's the wife's, and yes I could challenge that and prove that I paid for it and maybe, just maybe get 50% back if we ever split, hardly worth the exercise after lawyers and court fees so it would be all hers.

 

As the saying goes, only invest as much as your prepared to lose, and for me personally investing in property in Thailand is a BIG NO, having had a property background all of my life, it is too easy to get scammed here, even your own lawyer will sell his soul to the other side.

 

Sure heaps of foreigners have pushased and are happy with their purchases, and there would be a fair few who we wouldn't hear about that got scammed.

 

More money to be made elsewhere than property here IMO.

 

I could have also rented and still made good money after my rent was paid, suffice to say, buying property here is not an investment, i.e. if your looking for a small return, e.g. on average over the past 7 years I have made 18% net per annum on my investments, so I doubt my return on property here would be anywhere near that.

 

But each to there own, no rights, no wrongs, if it fits, wear it.

 

 

 

 

I bought a house with my wife as a ‘forever’ home and to give myself room for my cars and bikes. I could probably have found a property I could negotiate areas to modify for paint and panel work but in the end I chose the path of least resistance and headaches and just bought. 

My house was listed at 7mil, dropped to 6 as it had sat for 12 months and we then closed that deal at 5. 

I used a highly recommended lawyer from a big firm (foreign owned and managed) and negotiated terms directly with the vendor. 
 

Like you, as you know, I invest my money mostly elsewhere so I approached the vendor for a short term vendor mortgage which was agreed on. 3mil down, 1mil over 3 years at 2%, final payment 1mil (rough figured obviously) and kept my money working for me. 
 

When it came to land transfer I stipulated that the chanote was to be transferred to my wife on down payment of the 3mil, the mortgage to be recorded on the back of the chanote (did my research), had my lawyers inspect the contracts drawn up by the vendor and attended the land department office with the vendor on the day of transfer. I left absolutely nothing up to anyone else or without my direct supervision

Everything went to plan, no hiccups or surprises. And as an added bonus, we’ll two actually. With the 1mil final payment swinging in the breeze the vendor approached me about 12 months into the mortgage period asking if they could access the final payment early to ‘upgrade machine’ at their factory. 
A bit if back and forth and I managed to secure a further 235000฿ discount on the total cost of the property. A nice, cheeky return 

Add to that I got in on the bottom floor at the start of the short lived lithium boom recently and paid the remainder out of the profits from a speculative Aussie lithium ‘miner’ (ASX:LKE)

 

So all in all for me a very positive experience. I was very involved in the whole process, I did my research and left nothing up to anyone else to ‘take care of’. It’s the only way to do things here 

 

And like you, if it doesn’t work out with the wife I’ll probably just move on 

 

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, Wiggy said:

Both. My condo cost me 2m baht 23 years ago. It's now worth over 4m. I pay 3,000 baht/month maintenance fee, totalling 828,000 in fees over the 23 years, so I'm still over 1 million in profit (collecting money, as you put it) and I have 80 sq. metres, two bedrooms and two bathrooms. The owner (me) can't/won't kick me out, the rent (none) won't go up, I have total peace of mind, I can leave my wife a place to stay virtually free after I'm gone, and I have more money to spend on what I enjoy doing (the living part of it). How's your rent security working out for you? 

So you profited $100 a month by staying in the same spot for 23 years. (I mean a million, sorry, sounds better ????????‍♂️).

[SAFETY FIRST]

38 minutes ago, quake said:

Like the alphabet people  ( LGBTQW XYZ or what ever it is ) ?

We will soon run out of letters with all these minority groups popping up 

[SAFETY FIRST]

31 minutes ago, MadMuhammad said:

I bought a house with my wife as a ‘forever’ home and to give myself room for my cars and bikes. I could probably have found a property I could negotiate areas to modify for paint and panel work but in the end I chose the path of least resistance and headaches and just bought. 

My house was listed at 7mil, dropped to 6 as it had sat for 12 months and we then closed that deal at 5. 

I used a highly recommended lawyer from a big firm (foreign owned and managed) and negotiated terms directly with the vendor. 
 

Like you, as you know, I invest my money mostly elsewhere so I approached the vendor for a short term vendor mortgage which was agreed on. 3mil down, 1mil over 3 years at 2%, final payment 1mil (rough figured obviously) and kept my money working for me. 
 

When it came to land transfer I stipulated that the chanote was to be transferred to my wife on down payment of the 3mil, the mortgage to be recorded on the back of the chanote (did my research), had my lawyers inspect the contracts drawn up by the vendor and attended the land department office with the vendor on the day of transfer. I left absolutely nothing up to anyone else or without my direct supervision

Everything went to plan, no hiccups or surprises. And as an added bonus, we’ll two actually. With the 1mil final payment swinging in the breeze the vendor approached me about 12 months into the mortgage period asking if they could access the final payment early to ‘upgrade machine’ at their factory. 
A bit if back and forth and I managed to secure a further 235000฿ discount on the total cost of the property. A nice, cheeky return 

Add to that I got in on the bottom floor at the start of the short lived lithium boom recently and paid the remainder out of the profits from a speculative Aussie lithium ‘miner’ (ASX:LKE)

 

So all in all for me a very positive experience. I was very involved in the whole process, I did my research and left nothing up to anyone else to ‘take care of’. It’s the only way to do things here 

 

And like you, if it doesn’t work out with the wife I’ll probably just move on 

 

I've got a few toys also, house is essential, couldn't maintain or upkeep all the vehicles from condo carpark and if renting what a nightmare it would be relocating with all my expensive items (crap), I'm a hoarder. 

 

BTW, regarding mortgages with spouse. I knew this guy who had a mortgage with Bangkok Bank, his wife borrowed money from a loan shark, paid out the mortgage and sold the house. 

 

[4MyEgo]

35 minutes ago, MadMuhammad said:

So all in all for me a very positive experience. I was very involved in the whole process, I did my research and left nothing up to anyone else to ‘take care of’. It’s the only way to do things here 

 

And like you, if it doesn’t work out with the wife I’ll probably just move on 

 

[paddypower]

16 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Nothing. They do no investigative work. Ever. 

 

I would have tracked down the scoundrel. For that kind of money, you do what needs to be done. Enough persuasion, and most will succumb to pressure. 

an east London boy. I don't think so ???? you know the other expression about revenge - dig 2 graves. 555

[paddypower]

6 hours ago, AlexRich said:

If it floats, flies or f**ks, rent, don't buy!

i assume you have switched topics and are now advising about relationships with Thai women? as a barfly once said to me 'why buy a book? you can always rent one from the library and return it when finished'

[JustAnotherHun]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

More money to be made elsewhere than property here IMO.

Agree. But I never claimed buying a property in Thailand would be the best possible investment.

I think, for most of us, investment and possible return is not the main reason for buying a property here. To be independent from landlord's will, to have the room design you want instead of "fully furnished" are points that count for many.

 

You had and average return to your investments of 18% net from 2015 until 2022? Great, congratulations! Not many will have had that.

 

But ok, let's have a closer look:

We take a condo (NOT home). One rents for 50k/month, one buys it for 10 M THB in end 2009.

 

Until the end of 2022 the renter earns from his (foreign) investments (18% net/year) 23.4 M THB minus 7.8 M THB for rent. Net win = 15.6 M THB or a bit less than 422.000 Euro.

 

 The buyer sells in end 2022 with a appreciation in value of 100% (roughly the progression in "my" building) and wins 10 M THB.

In 2009 the exchange rate was 51 THB/Euro. So he invested auround 196.000 Euro. End of 2022 the rate was 37 THB/Euro.

Net win = 344.000 Euro.

 

These numbers are very very roughly calculated but we see, your investment was the better one as you told. But in the end, over 13 years,  the difference is not that huge, is it?

The renter has "fully furnished" a bit more cash in his pocket in the end, the buyer may have had a more comfortable life in a place that was at a standard that he liked.

 

Don't get me wrong. There is much scamming in the Thai property market and one has to be very careful. Everybody knows this, I guess. Or at least he should know if he decides to stay long time in a country that's very different to those we come from.

In the end to rent or to buy depends on one's personal preferences.

[spidermike007]

3 hours ago, paddypower said:

an east London boy. I don't think so ???? you know the other expression about revenge - dig 2 graves. 555

There are a dozen alternatives to classic revenge. There are so many ways to go after a bad actor these days. Shame, online humiliation, direct access to family members, etc. The list is endless. The worst thing in the world anyone can do, when they have been scammed for a large amount of money, is to just let it go. It just encourages the criminal. No thanks. I would devote my life to finding him, pursue him to the ends of the earth, and make his life a living hell.

[Nip]

20 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

And of course you have a source(s) for this apparently "verbatim" quote?

Please include the country, era and crime etc!

My own two ears. Phuket criminal court. And in English. 

[off road pat]

7 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Both. My condo cost me 2m baht 23 years ago. It's now worth over 4m. I pay 3,000 baht/month maintenance fee, totalling 828,000 in fees over the 23 years, so I'm still over 1 million in profit (collecting money, as you put it) and I have 80 sq. metres, two bedrooms and two bathrooms. The owner (me) can't/won't kick me out, the rent (none) won't go up, I have total peace of mind, I can leave my wife a place to stay virtually free after I'm gone, and I have more money to spend on what I enjoy doing (the living part of it). How's your rent security working out for you? 

Don't worry about me,...I (we, my wife and I) don't need property, I travel around SE Asia every year for 5/6 months (the European winter months),...and do the same around Europe for 3/4 months in summer,...the rest we spend in our inexpensive rented apartment at 500 m from a European beach !!

Been doing that for over 30 years and this suites us very well,...I did that when I was younger, and now I do the same with the wife,...visiting friends all over the world.

[Scouse123]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:16 AM, mikeymike100 said:

His money, surely he can do what he wants with it?

Accepted. 

 

But it isn't his money or his condo anymore, is it?

[Scouse123]

On 6/2/2023 at 8:55 AM, Scouse123 said:

It just seems a bit daft a man of his age getting involved in buying a condo at that kind of money.

 

 

Don't know why I get the confused emoji?

Common sense!

[off road pat]

On 6/2/2023 at 4:49 AM, Wiggy said:

Rent money is money lost forever. 

I have/heard so many story's of people that bought property in Thailand that were deceived.

And if that's not enough,...getting bad/noisy neighbors..!?!? If you rented ? you can leave easy !!!

[Gknrd]

On 6/1/2023 at 5:21 PM, SunnyinBangrak said:

Did they forget to name this condo development in the OP? How are we supposed to be aware of the scam if the place is not named!?

Hahaha, if they would have named it they would have been sued for defamation.  Condo (thieves) I mean developers would have had another huge payday...

[Nip]

23 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

And of course you have a source(s) for this apparently "verbatim" quote?

Please include the country, era and crime etc!

Further on this subject. I defy you to name a Thai lawyer with the following attributes; Honesty, a Clear Knowledge of Thai Law, Who will take positive legal action against another Thai Lawyer or Policeman and not be intimidated by an agent for the criminal, his lawyer or the Lawyers Council. Request a list of barred Thai Lawyers from the Lawyers Council and find a media outlet that will expose these cheats. You can find neither.  It’s a toss up in a Thai court who is the bigger criminal the defendant or his lawyer. It’s a mugs game. I give you an eg. Ring a Thai lawyer and ask them to explain Section 46 or 357 of the criminal code. They will call you back when they have checked. I once asked the legal representative of AMLO this same question at a meeting. She looked at me bemused. I said do you know Section 46 and 357 she shook her head. I said your a qualified lawyer? She nodded again. I said if a client asks you about these sections what will you do? I will check online. That about sums it all up. Now you know why the judge commented; and you trust your Thai lawyer to the guy in court. 

[Wiggy]

22 hours ago, JimTripper said:

So you profited $100 a month by staying in the same spot for 23 years. (I mean a million, sorry, sounds better ????????‍♂️).

Not having lost millions by renting and with nothing to show for it sounds even better. It’s my choice not to move but I can if I want to, obviously. 

[huberthammer]

I love all the comments about "never buy only rent in Thailand". Makes great comedy of the recent huge surge in rental prices and people getting kicked out of their villas because current market prices are now much higher than what they paid and then they are not able to find anything anywhere near the same price. Buying a property for your own use has many advantages over rental and will pay out in the long run in both convenience and economically. 

 

I would agree that if you buy property based on advice given here (or in your local bar) it might be best to stay away. However, doing proper due diligence and use of a good lawyer mitigates most of the risks associated with buying property in Thailand (or anywhere else in the world). 

[JimTripper]

17 hours ago, off road pat said:

I have/heard so many story's of people that bought property in Thailand that were deceived.

And if that's not enough,...getting bad/noisy neighbors..!?!? If you rented ? you can leave easy !!!

Maybe after a year. Two month deposit usually would be lost if you move early.

[smew]

this is thailand.. scam after scam after scam....

[Gknrd]

On 6/3/2023 at 3:40 AM, off road pat said:

I have/heard so many story's of people that bought property in Thailand that were deceived.

And if that's not enough,...getting bad/noisy neighbors..!?!? If you rented ? you can leave easy !!!

Agree, apartments in Thailand are a dime a dozen. Heck, I have even rented nice guest houses for months on end. Thailand is so overbuilt it is really nice having so many options. If they don't want to negotiate with the price then just go to the next one.

 

 

[JimTripper]

15 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Not having lost millions by renting and with nothing to show for it sounds even better. It’s my choice not to move but I can if I want to, obviously. 

The rental money paid for a place to live so it’s not lost, it bought something.

 

The money saved by not buying a property was used for other things and not tied up in an illiquid asset that’s hard to sell.

[Chelseafan]

On 6/1/2023 at 11:21 PM, SunnyinBangrak said:

Did they forget to name this condo development in the OP? How are we supposed to be aware of the scam if the place is not named!?

I'm sure you're aware of the libel laws in Thailand. I suspect the reporter decided to play safe.

 

[quake]

23 hours ago, smew said:

this is thailand.. scam after scam after scam....

Yes, but look on the brightside.

You can also have, Happy ending, after Happy ending, after Happy ending,

and it won't cost 15 million baht. 

[Hammerite]

Of course there may be a reason Thais are less likely to be scammed in this way.  Nothing to do with the legal system or business acumen .

More to do with the likelihood of o helmeted motorcyclist with a gun turning up on the scammers doorstep!!!

Just a thought.

[off road pat]

On 6/4/2023 at 2:49 AM, huberthammer said:

I love all the comments about "never buy only rent in Thailand". Makes great comedy of the recent huge surge in rental prices and people getting kicked out of their villas because current market prices are now much higher than what they paid and then they are not able to find anything anywhere near the same price. Buying a property for your own use has many advantages over rental and will pay out in the long run in both convenience and economically. 

 

I would agree that if you buy property based on advice given here (or in your local bar) it might be best to stay away. However, doing proper due diligence and use of a good lawyer mitigates most of the risks associated with buying property in Thailand (or anywhere else in the world). 

Hm,...Love the "good Lawyer" part !!!!,...never heard of one in Thailand !