4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

No, I don't think it's patriotic, but I do not understand how it make him a traitor. 

 

Do you consider everyone that would like to see a negotiated settlement in Ukraine a traitor? 

 

It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction. 

No, but Ramaswamy isn't talking about a negotiated settlement. He never mentioned it. He just said he'd stop US support for Ukraine. That's a traitor.

36 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

No, but Ramaswamy isn't talking about a negotiated settlement. He never mentioned it. He just said he'd stop US support for Ukraine. That's a traitor.

Do you consider everyone that would stop US support for Ukraine a traitor? 

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you consider everyone that would stop US support for Ukraine a traitor? 

It certainly goes against everything American in principle a traitor no it doesn’t meet the definition but it’s close in this way(my opinion)Putin is the enemy of all freedom loving democracy’s he is an enemy of the United States that candidate is giving aid and comfort to an enemy leader an enemy of America 

12 minutes ago, Tug said:

It certainly goes against everything American in principle a traitor no it doesn’t meet the definition but it’s close in this way(my opinion)Putin is the enemy of all freedom loving democracy’s he is an enemy of the United States that candidate is giving aid and comfort to an enemy leader an enemy of America 

The US is training Ukrainian pilots and is about to give Ukraine F16's. That'd have to come pretty close to the definition that Putin is the enemy so his comments are tantamount to traitorous.

14 hours ago, ozimoron said:

I watched the traitor presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy on CNN last night. He was saying that he would pull the US out of Ukraine and commit to giving them the Donbas region. He didn't mention Crimea but you can bet that he means that as well. His excuse? Fighting Russia drives it into the hands of the Chinese. He can smell Russian money and wants to grab the fascist vote when Trump and DeSantis go down. This is the kind of scum which infests that party at the fringes. The likes of Ilhan Omar and AOC are nothing in terms of extremism compared to this swill and a couple of other Neville Chamberlains.

"Fighting Russia drives it into the hands of the Chinese."

 

He's either an idiot or a stooge.  We are not fighting Russia, we are helping Ukraine fight a Russian invasion.  Letting Russia get away with its land grab in Ukraine lets Russia and China know they can do more of the same.  Putin's rule has turned Russia into a backwards petro-state that will continue to be dependent on China regardless of the outcome of the war.

Edited August 18, 20232 yr by heybruce

13 hours ago, Tug said:

It certainly goes against everything American in principle a traitor no it doesn’t meet the definition but it’s close in this way(my opinion)Putin is the enemy of all freedom loving democracy’s he is an enemy of the United States that candidate is giving aid and comfort to an enemy leader an enemy of America 

In a way that Afghanistan did/does not? 

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

"Fighting Russia drives it into the hands of the Chinese."

 

He's either an idiot or a stooge.  We are not fighting Russia, we are helping Ukraine fight a Russian invasion.  Letting Russia get away with its land grab in Ukraine lets Russia and China know they can do more of the same.  Putin's rule has turned Russia into a backwards petro-state that will continue to be dependent on China regardless of the outcome of the war.

How is helping someone else fight Russia not fighting Russia? 

 

How is making Russia more dependent on the Chinese not the same as "...driving Russia into the hands of the Chinese."? 

15 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you consider everyone that would stop US support for Ukraine a traitor? 

Some are.

Most are useful idiots for Putin.

Just as isolationists leading to WW2 like Ford and Lindbergh were useful idiots for Hitler.

DOJ: Suicide of police officer after Jan. 6 was line of duty death

 

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4159657-doj-rules-suicide-of-police-officer-after-jan-6-a-line-of-duty-death/

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

How is helping someone else fight Russia not fighting Russia? 

 

How is making Russia more dependent on the Chinese not the same as "...driving Russia into the hands of the Chinese."? 

Because it is not the US military doing the fighting.

 

Because it is Putin who threatened to use fossil fuel exports as a weapon against Europe, driving Europe to find other sources and leaving Putin looking for other customers. 

 

Putin drove Russia "into the hand of the Chinese".  And Russia is now stuck there.  Letting Putin have chunks of Ukraine (and other countries when the urge strikes him) will not restore faith in Russia as a reliable exporter of energy.  Europe isn't so stupid as to become dependent on Russia again.  At least not for a while.

The deadly reason Republicans are suckers for fake news

 

Multiple recent studies show that Republicans are as much as 8.5 times more likely to both believe and share fake or false “news” with others than are Democrats.

 

And it’s not limited to things like elections that are overtly political: Republicans were more likely than Democrats to reject basic science about Covid, and thus die of the disease at much higher rates than Democrats.

 

First, conservatives are more vulnerable to listening to and believing people who present themselves as authority figures.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/republicans-and-fake-news/

Edited August 19, 20232 yr by ozimoron

37 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The deadly reason Republicans are suckers for fake news

 

Multiple recent studies show that Republicans are as much as 8.5 times more likely to both believe and share fake or false “news” with others than are Democrats.

 

And it’s not limited to things like elections that are overtly political: Republicans were more likely than Democrats to reject basic science about Covid, and thus die of the disease at much higher rates than Democrats.

 

First, conservatives are more vulnerable to listening to and believing people who present themselves as authority figures.

 

https://www.rawstory.com/republicans-and-fake-news/

Does it come as a surprise to you that Republican believe that that everything the left says is fake news, and that Democrats take is as science? 

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Because it is not the US military doing the fighting.

 

Because it is Putin who threatened to use fossil fuel exports as a weapon against Europe, driving Europe to find other sources and leaving Putin looking for other customers. 

 

Putin drove Russia "into the hand of the Chinese".  And Russia is now stuck there.  Letting Putin have chunks of Ukraine (and other countries when the urge strikes him) will not restore faith in Russia as a reliable exporter of energy.  Europe isn't so stupid as to become dependent on Russia again.  At least not for a while.

Yeah, they should have listed to Trump. 

18 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, they should have listed to Trump. 

Who should have listened to Trump and why?

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Who should have listened to Trump and why?

NATO in general and Germany in particular back in 2018 at the NATO summit when he criticized Germany, over the natural gas pipeline deal with Russia and demanded NATO countries spend more on defense.

 

 

 

Some off topic posts contravening our Community Standards has been removed.    

 

 

 

On 8/18/2023 at 8:12 PM, Yellowtail said:

No, I don't think it's patriotic, but I do not understand how it make him a traitor. 

 

Do you consider everyone that would like to see a negotiated settlement in Ukraine a traitor? 

 

It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction. 

"It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction. " What does that actually signify? That it's not your impression that the left cared about Ukraine before they used it against Trump? Is your impression connected to any facts? LIke how the left felt about Ukraine, before Trump?

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

NATO in general and Germany in particular back in 2018 at the NATO summit when he criticized Germany, over the natural gas pipeline deal with Russia and demanded NATO countries spend more on defense.

On that occasion Trump was correct.  Well, you know what they say about broken clocks.

 

However it doesn't change the fact that Putin has forced Russia to be China's bitc.... junior partner in world affairs, and ending support for Ukraine isn't going to change that.  It will just embolden Russia and China to further intimidate neighbors and grab territory when it suits them.

 

The Constitution Prohibits Trump From Ever Being President Again

The only question is whether American citizens today can uphold that commitment.

 

By J. Michael Luttig and Laurence H. Tribe
 

As students of the United States Constitution for many decades—one of us as a U.S. Court of Appeals judge, the other as a professor of constitutional law, and both as constitutional advocates, scholars, and practitioners—we long ago came to the conclusion that the Fourteenth Amendment, the amendment ratified in 1868 that represents our nation’s second founding and a new birth of freedom, contains within it a protection against the dissolution of the republic by a treasonous president.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/donald-trump-constitutionally-prohibited-presidency/675048/

 

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

On that occasion Trump was correct.  Well, you know what they say about broken clocks.

 

However it doesn't change the fact that Putin has forced Russia to be China's bitc.... junior partner in world affairs, and ending support for Ukraine isn't going to change that.  It will just embolden Russia and China to further intimidate neighbors and grab territory when it suits them.

I never said I wanted to end support for Ukraine, I just do not think it fair to call Americans that do support ending support un-American and traitorous. I did not support the withdrawal from Afghanistan, but i don't think the people that supported it un-American and traitorous.

 

You claimed that Vivek Ramaswamy was "...either an idiot or a stooge." when he said "Fighting Russia drives it into the hands of the Chinese."

 

Now you seem to be saying that the fighting has driven Russia into the arms of China. I'm not clear what the difference is. 

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

"It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction. " What does that actually signify? That it's not your impression that the left cared about Ukraine before they used it against Trump?

It signifies that I don't believe left gave a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction. What about that is unclear?

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

 

Is your impression connected to any facts?

Yes

10 hours ago, placeholder said:

LIke how the left felt about Ukraine, before Trump?

I was talking about before the Biden, not before Trump. 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes

Typical wise-alec comment. I don't understand what kind of weird and sad satisfaction you get out of making such empty comments. You've got nothing.

 

And to show you just how much nothing you've got here's a thing called evidence, something you rarely betray any familiarity with. It shows Democrats pushing against a Democratic president. So much for your nonsense that "It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction."

 

Democrats Are Now Pushing Obama to Give Guns to Ukraine

Hawkish Republicans have leaned on President Obama for the better part of a year to give weapons to Ukraine as it battles Russian-backed separatists. Now it’s members of Obama’s own party—both within Congress and from members of his own administration—that are calling on the president to arm the Ukrainians, before they lose even more territory to the Kremlin’s proxies.

On Capitol Hill there is a renewed sense of urgency: The top-ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, Adam Smith, will join with his Republican counterpart Mac Thornberry on Tuesday to present a bill that would further pressure the president to give the Ukrainian government weaponry, although legislators have yet to spell out the specifics of the bill.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-are-now-pushing-obama-to-give-guns-to-ukraine

 

Bipartisan group of senators push Obama to help arm Ukraine

A bipartisan group of senators is putting increasing pressure on the Obama administration to further sanction Russian President Vladimir Putin and provide Ukraine weapons to take on Russian-backed rebels.

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/senators-more-putin-sanctions-arm-ukraine-115370

 

US House urges Obama to send weapons to Ukraine
The US House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved a resolution on Monday urging President Barack Obama to send weapons to Ukraine to help its fight against Russian-backed rebels. The US has so far provided only non-lethal aid.

https://www.france24.com/en/20150324-us-house-pass-resolution-urging-obama-send-arms-ukraine-war-russia

 

Unified Congress Says Obama Must Send Arms to Ukraine
Congress has already given President Obama the authority to send lethal military aid to Ukraine, and they say it's time for him to act.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/02/05/unified-congress-says-obama-must-send-arms-to-ukraine

 

Senate Unanimously Passes Corker Legislation to Support Ukraine, Expand Sanctions Against Russia

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/dem/release/senate-unanimously-passes-corker-legislation-to-support-ukraine-expand-sanctions-against-russia

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

I never said I wanted to end support for Ukraine, I just do not think it fair to call Americans that do support ending support un-American and traitorous. I did not support the withdrawal from Afghanistan, but i don't think the people that supported it un-American and traitorous.

 

You claimed that Vivek Ramaswamy was "...either an idiot or a stooge." when he said "Fighting Russia drives it into the hands of the Chinese."

 

Now you seem to be saying that the fighting has driven Russia into the arms of China. I'm not clear what the difference is. 

The difference is time frame.  Putin's miscalculation on Ukraine forced him and Russia to rely on China for support.  That has been a done deal since early in the war and can't be undone. 

 

Ramaswamy, by using the present continuous verb tense, suggests that this reliance is an ongoing but reversible process. It isn't.  Russia will be dependent on China for decades to come, if not longer. This won't change regardless of what happens in Ukraine.

 

Economically Russia can't be a big player on the world stage by itself; Putin has reduced the country into a corrupt petro-state.  Russia won't rise above that low standard without seriously tackling it's economic dependence on energy exports and its corrupt oligarchies. 

 

I don't see any progress in that direction, and don't expect to see any while Putin is in charge.  To the contrary, letting Putin claim any semblance of victory will further entrench him and the corrupt system he created and leads.  This will extend Russia's economic decline.  It's actually in the interest of the Russian people for Putin and his corrupt government to be widely recognized as failures.  That could lead to a better government that reverses the country's decline.

 

I posted "He's either an idiot or a stooge."  If Ramaswamy doesn't understand all, or most, of this yet thinks he's qualified to be President then he's an idiot.  If he does understand this but still wants to take action that supports Putin, then it's fair to think of him as a stooge. 

 

 

Edited August 20, 20232 yr by heybruce

28 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

 

 

Typical wise-alec comment. I don't understand what kind of weird and sad satisfaction you get out of making such empty comments. You've got nothing.

 

And to show you just how much nothing you've got here's a thing called evidence, something you rarely betray any familiarity with. It shows Democrats pushing against a Democratic president. So much for your nonsense that "It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction."

 

Democrats Are Now Pushing Obama to Give Guns to Ukraine

Hawkish Republicans have leaned on President Obama for the better part of a year to give weapons to Ukraine as it battles Russian-backed separatists. Now it’s members of Obama’s own party—both within Congress and from members of his own administration—that are calling on the president to arm the Ukrainians, before they lose even more territory to the Kremlin’s proxies.

On Capitol Hill there is a renewed sense of urgency: The top-ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, Adam Smith, will join with his Republican counterpart Mac Thornberry on Tuesday to present a bill that would further pressure the president to give the Ukrainian government weaponry, although legislators have yet to spell out the specifics of the bill.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-are-now-pushing-obama-to-give-guns-to-ukraine

 

Bipartisan group of senators push Obama to help arm Ukraine

A bipartisan group of senators is putting increasing pressure on the Obama administration to further sanction Russian President Vladimir Putin and provide Ukraine weapons to take on Russian-backed rebels.

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/02/senators-more-putin-sanctions-arm-ukraine-115370

 

US House urges Obama to send weapons to Ukraine
The US House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved a resolution on Monday urging President Barack Obama to send weapons to Ukraine to help its fight against Russian-backed rebels. The US has so far provided only non-lethal aid.

https://www.france24.com/en/20150324-us-house-pass-resolution-urging-obama-send-arms-ukraine-war-russia

 

Unified Congress Says Obama Must Send Arms to Ukraine
Congress has already given President Obama the authority to send lethal military aid to Ukraine, and they say it's time for him to act.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/02/05/unified-congress-says-obama-must-send-arms-to-ukraine

 

Senate Unanimously Passes Corker Legislation to Support Ukraine, Expand Sanctions Against Russia

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/dem/release/senate-unanimously-passes-corker-legislation-to-support-ukraine-expand-sanctions-against-russia

Does this not support my position? 

2 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

 

The Constitution Prohibits Trump From Ever Being President Again

The only question is whether American citizens today can uphold that commitment.

 

By J. Michael Luttig and Laurence H. Tribe
 

As students of the United States Constitution for many decades—one of us as a U.S. Court of Appeals judge, the other as a professor of constitutional law, and both as constitutional advocates, scholars, and practitioners—we long ago came to the conclusion that the Fourteenth Amendment, the amendment ratified in 1868 that represents our nation’s second founding and a new birth of freedom, contains within it a protection against the dissolution of the republic by a treasonous president.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/donald-trump-constitutionally-prohibited-presidency/675048/

 

Indeed!

Get on it ASAP state Secretaries of State!

 

 

36 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Does this not support my position? 

Of course, it doesn't support your position. Apparently you've either forgotten or don't understand  even basic political facts.. Here it is again:

"It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction." 

How would politicians of the same party criticizing their political leader divert attention in a way that's politically advantageous? How does that not undermine a President?

If you decide to refute this, can you please provide the evidence you claimed you had to prove "the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction"?

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Of course, it doesn't support your position. Apparently you've either forgotten or don't understand  even basic political facts.. Here it is again:

"It seems like the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction." 

How would politicians of the same party criticizing their political leader divert attention in a way that's politically advantageous? How does that not undermine a President?

If you decide to refute this, can you please provide the evidence you claimed you had to prove "the left did not give a whit about Ukraine until they needed a distraction"?

I don't consider a few outliers the left, and I don't remember any big uproar from the left about either Ukraine of Syria. 

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Indeed!

Get on it ASAP state Secretaries of State!

 

 

We can only hope...

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

We can only hope...

Yes and any secretary of state that enforces this will instantly be on the hit list of the white nationalist domestic terrorists incited by their dear leader in Mar y Lardo.

17 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I don't consider a few outliers the left, and I don't remember any big uproar from the left about either Ukraine of Syria. 

Outliers? The vast majority of Democrates in the House and Senate pushing the Obama adminstration to increase support for Ukraine are outliers? Do you know what outlier means?

outlier

a person, thing, or fact that is very different from other people, things, or facts, so that it cannot be used to draw general conclusions

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/outlier