8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It's only obvious to the left that's what Trump's motivation was. 

 

 

It's only obvious to non Magadonian cult members.

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

There is video of him bragging about getting the guy fired. 

 

So was he just lying again? 

It's not about the bragging, it's about the right-wing claim he did that to protect Burisma.

Just now, candide said:

Sory, I replied too fast. I thought you were claiming he did that to protect Busrisma from being investigated.

Well we do know that Biden was carrying out U.S. policy, and the United States was not alone in pressuring Ukraine to fire Shokin. Thousands of its civilians were also not being murdered in the latest illegal invasion. A smart move to oust corruption at the time.

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

"Blackmailing Ukraine"?!?!

 

Do you so easily forget Biden BRAGGING about strongarming Ukraine, threatening to withold a billion dollars of aid if they didn't fire a prosecutor? Last I read, nothing in the Vice President's job description includes interfering in the internal affairs of other countries. 

 

 

A reply to your argument: it was the job of the Obama administration, the E.U., the IMF (they all asked to fire Shokin). They were giving or lending money to Ukraine, and it was their job to make sure the money did not end up in corrupt hands, because corruption was not actually being investigated by Shokin (and his predecessors).

Edited July 31, 20232 yr by candide

54 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I read the quotes as ozzie having contempt for patriots. 

Yeah, you read incorrectly. He has contempt for "patriots".

8 minutes ago, candide said:

A reply to your argument: it was the job of the Obama administration, the E.U., the IMF (they all asked to fire Shokin). They were giving or lending money to Ukraine, and it was their job to make sure the money doesn't end up in corrupt hands, because corruption was not actually being investigated by Shokin (and his predecessors).

Funny how this cesspit of corruption just a few years ago is now suddenly a beacon for democracy.  And how the democrats, who were so mindful of aid getting into the wrong hands at that time, are so...uncurious... about where the money is going today.

42 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

And all the while the Obama administration refused to provide Ukraine with defensive weapons. 

 

The Trump administration supplies Ukraine with defensive weapon but wants them to investigate corruption.  

 

Why Obama Didn’t Arm Ukraine - WSJ

 

 

That was a big strategic mistake by Obama. He did not perceive the real threat at that time.

 

Meanwhile....

"Within weeks, Trump praised Putin for how he handled the takeover of Crimea and predicted that “the rest of Ukraine will fall … fairly quickly.” Echoing Kremlin propaganda, Trump said in a TV interview that the Crimean people “would rather be with Russia,” a position he also pushed in private. One of his 2016 campaign aides falsely claimed that “Russia did not seize Crimea.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/26/politics/trump-putin-ukraine/index.html

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Funny how this cesspit of corruption just a few years ago is now suddenly a beacon for democracy.  And how the democrats, who were so mindful of aid getting into the wrong hands at that time, are so...uncurious... about where the money is going today.

Who claimed its a beacon of democracy now? It is a beacon of an example of an unjust invasion slaughtering thousands and the West Uniting to supply aid to fight off the war criminals.

2 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

Or are the victims of endless hoaxes causing irrational hatred among the less well informed voters.

Do you really believe the indictments are Hoaxes.  Anyone else would already be in prison.  

11 minutes ago, candide said:

That was a big strategic mistake by Obama. He did not perceive the real threat at that time.

 

Meanwhile....

"Within weeks, Trump praised Putin for how he handled the takeover of Crimea and predicted that “the rest of Ukraine will fall … fairly quickly.” Echoing Kremlin propaganda, Trump said in a TV interview that the Crimean people “would rather be with Russia,” a position he also pushed in private. One of his 2016 campaign aides falsely claimed that “Russia did not seize Crimea.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/26/politics/trump-putin-ukraine/index.html

Yeah, I remember him laughing at Romney in the debate. What did he say,,,the1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back..? 

 

What happened with the reset button? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, but as a non-leftist, I'm not educated enough to understand that. 

 

I read the quotes as ozzie having contempt for patriots. 

I certainly won't quarrel with you about your insufficient education.

Edited July 31, 20232 yr by placeholder

3 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Do you really believe the indictments are Hoaxes.  Anyone else would already be in prison.  

I heard Trump tried to wipe the servers, like with a cloth, is that true? 

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I heard Trump tried to wipe the servers, like with a cloth, is that true? 

If you say it, or even think it, then it must be true, right?

 

But to shed some light on this: Trump ordered someone to wipe surveillance footage. 

Edited July 31, 20232 yr by rudi49jr

40 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Funny how this cesspit of corruption just a few years ago is now suddenly a beacon for democracy.  And how the democrats, who were so mindful of aid getting into the wrong hands at that time, are so...uncurious... about where the money is going today.

Considering how effective Ukraine has been at stopping and in many cases reversing an invasion by a numerically superior force, it's safe to assume that the military aid is being used properly.

7 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

If you say it, or even think it, then it must be true, right?

 

But to shed some light on this: Trump ordered someone to wipe surveillance footage. 

Why so condescending? I was asking a question, if you don't know the, just say nothing, or you don't know. 

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Considering how effective Ukraine has been at stopping and in many cases reversing an invasion by a numerically superior force, it's safe to assume that the military aid is being used properly.

To be fair, there are certainly indications of fraud and corruption, and maybe even more than the West had anticipated. But like Hippocrates already said: ‘desperate times call for desperate measures’.
It’s vital to stop the Russian aggression, because if they win they’re not going to stop, so I say give Ukraine whatever they’re asking for to drive the Russians back across the border. And then afterwards we can try to figure out if there was fraud and corruption and maybe do something about it. 

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Why so condescending? I was asking a question, if you don't know the, just say nothing, or you don't know. 

Really? You’re saying you asked that question in all honesty? If Trump tried to wipe a server with a cloth or something? Come on….

Edited July 31, 20232 yr by rudi49jr

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Biden bragging at the Council for Foreign Relations in 2018;

 

I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired.

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.html

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

There is video of him bragging about getting the guy fired. 

 

So was he just lying again? 

More nonsense from the 2 of you. Why shouldn't Biden be open about getting Victor Shokin fired? He was carrying out the policy of the US government.  What's more, the EU also approved. Shokin was reckoned by the State Dept and the EU to be deeply corrupt. Despite Shokin's claim that he was going after Burisma when he was fired, his staff testified that was a lie. In fact, the problem with Shokin was that he wasn't going after any corrupt oligarchs. However, I'll say this for him:  he didn't lack for zealotry in going after anti-corruption organizations in the Ukraine. 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why so condescending? I was asking a question, if you don't know the, just say nothing, or you don't know. 

Why be so flippant. He answered your bogus question.

16 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Why be so flippant. He answered your bogus question.

What's with the bogus flippancy charge? And no, he did not answer the question. As is typical, he answered a different question. 

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

 

More nonsense from the 2 of you. Why shouldn't Biden be open about getting Victor Shokin fired? He was carrying out the policy of the US government.  What's more, the EU also approved. Shokin was reckoned by the State Dept and the EU to be deeply corrupt. Despite Shokin's claim that he was going after Burisma when he was fired, his staff testified that was a lie. In fact, the problem with Shokin was that he wasn't going after any corrupt oligarchs. However, I'll say this for him:  he didn't lack for zealotry in going after anti-corruption organizations in the Ukraine. 

A leftist (not you) claimed it was a lie that Biden got the guy investigating the company Hunter was on the board of fired. 

 

I replied that there was a video of him bragging about it. 

 

You are confirming that Biden did get him fired, so I'm not sure what you're on about. 

 

To be clear, I assume it was likely just a coincidence that the guy Biden bragged about getting firing was investigating a Ukrainian company that Hunter was on the board of. 

 

I think we are in agreement here. 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

A leftist (not you) claimed it was a lie that Biden got the guy investigating the company Hunter was on the board of fired. 

 

I replied that there was a video of him bragging about it. 

 

You are confirming that Biden did get him fired, so I'm not sure what you're on about. 

 

To be clear, I assume it was likely just a coincidence that the guy Biden bragged about getting firing was investigating a Ukrainian company that Hunter was on the board of. 

 

I think we are in agreement here. 

Of course, there is a video. As I replied already, I did not read the post fully and misunderstood that the poster was making the B.S. claim you just made (the guy Biden bragged about getting firing "was investigating a Ukrainian company that Hunter was on the board of".)

 

BTW, I am not leftist, I am rather 'center'.

Edited July 31, 20232 yr by candide

2 minutes ago, candide said:

Of course, there is a video. As I replied already, I did not read the post fully and misunderstood that the poster was making the B.S. claim you just made (the guy Biden bragged about getting firing "was investigating a Ukrainian company that Hunter was on the board of".)

 

BTW, I am not leftist, I am rather 'center'.

I'm a centrist too. 

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

A leftist (not you) claimed it was a lie that Biden got the guy investigating the company Hunter was on the board of fired. 

 

I replied that there was a video of him bragging about it. 

 

You are confirming that Biden did get him fired, so I'm not sure what you're on about. 

 

To be clear, I assume it was likely just a coincidence that the guy Biden bragged about getting firing was investigating a Ukrainian company that Hunter was on the board of. 

 

I think we are in agreement here. 

What don't you understand about the fact that Victor Shokin was not investigating Burisma. In fact he wasn't investigating any of the oligarchs. He was  investigating anti-corruption activists and prosecutors who actually were investigating prosecution. He was removed at the behest of the State epartment and Barack Obama and the EU thoroughly approved.

Edited July 31, 20232 yr by placeholder

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What don't you understand about the fact that Victor Shokin was not investigating Burisma. In fact he wasn't investigating any of the oligarchs. He was  investigating anti-corruption activists and prosecutors who actually were investigating prosecution. He was removed at the behest of the State epartment and Barack Obama and the EU thoroughly approved.

It's not that clear to me. Per CNN there was an investigation. 

 

CNN fact check - Was Ukrainian prosecutor Viktor Shokin prosecuting Burisma?

 

8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It's not that clear to me. Per CNN there was an investigation. 

 

CNN fact check - Was Ukrainian prosecutor Viktor Shokin prosecuting Burisma?

 

?

From your link

"CONCLUSION

Shokin was not prosecuting Burisma."

 

BTW if you want to know the whole story, It's here.

https://www.justsecurity.org/66271/timeline-trump-giuliani-bidens-and-ukrainegate/

Edited July 31, 20232 yr by candide

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

It's not that clear to me. Per CNN there was an investigation. 

 

CNN fact check - Was Ukrainian prosecutor Viktor Shokin prosecuting Burisma?

 

 

 

 

 

 

From the CNN article

 

CONCLUSION

Shokin was not prosecuting Burisma.

 

Even if, contrary to fact, he was investigating Burisma. the fact is that Biden was acting as the messenger, not the instigator. The State Dept recommended that Shokin be fired and the EU was behind it.  And there's this:

"On the same day, his office carried out a raid against one of Ukraine's leading anti-corruption groups, the Anti-Corruption Action Center (AntAC), claiming that it had misappropriated aid money.^[21] AntAC was a frequent critic of the Prosecutor General's Office under Shokin.^[34] In one notorious case, two of Shokin's prosecutors were caught with stashes of diamonds, cash and valuables in their homes, likely indicating bribery. Prosecutors from another department of Shokin's office were fired or reassigned when they attempted to bring a prosecution against the so-called "diamond prosecutors".^[35]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin}

 

 

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

It's not that clear to me. Per CNN there was an investigation. 

 

CNN fact check - Was Ukrainian prosecutor Viktor Shokin prosecuting Burisma?

 

 

3 minutes ago, candide said:

?

From your link

"CONCLUSION

Shokin was not prosecuting Burisma."

 

BTW if you want to know the whole story, It's here.

https://www.justsecurity.org/66271/timeline-trump-giuliani-bidens-and-ukrainegate/

I never said he was prosecuting Burisma, and the article clearly states that "...there had been an investigation of the company, Shokin's former deputy, Vitaliy Kasko, has said that it was dormant at the time of Joe Biden's intervention..."

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

 

 

 

 

From the CNN article

 

CONCLUSION

Shokin was not prosecuting Burisma.

 

Even if, contrary to fact, he was investigating Burisma. the fact is that Biden was acting as the messenger, not the instigator. The State Dept recommended that Shokin be fired and the EU was behind it.  And there's this:

"On the same day, his office carried out a raid against one of Ukraine's leading anti-corruption groups, the Anti-Corruption Action Center (AntAC), claiming that it had misappropriated aid money.^[21] AntAC was a frequent critic of the Prosecutor General's Office under Shokin.^[34] In one notorious case, two of Shokin's prosecutors were caught with stashes of diamonds, cash and valuables in their homes, likely indicating bribery. Prosecutors from another department of Shokin's office were fired or reassigned when they attempted to bring a prosecution against the so-called "diamond prosecutors".^[35]"

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin}

 

 

 

Did I not say I thought it was a coincidence that the guy Biden bragged about getting fired was investigating (or I guess more correctly) had been investigating a company Hunter Biden was on the board of? 

 

How do we disagree? 

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I never said he was prosecuting Burisma, and the article clearly states that "...there had been an investigation of the company, Shokin's former deputy, Vitaliy Kasko, has said that it was dormant at the time of Joe Biden's intervention..."

He wasn't prosecuting and he wasn't investigating. So no coincidence.