Nato: Warm words but a diplomatic reality check for Ukraine

[ozimoron]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Ukraine has been talking of joining NATO for at least 15 years, even before we watched Putin invade Crimea.

You'd need to provide a link to that disinformation.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, ozimoron said:

You'd need to provide a link to that disinformation.

Ukraine joining NATO came up in 2008. 15 years later it's still under discussion : NPR

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Ukraine joining NATO came up in 2008. 15 years later it's still under discussion : NPR

"came up" lol. There was nothing even remotely close to an application.

[hughrection]

37 minutes ago, steven100 said:

clusters,  fighter jets,  LRHMS,  Missiles

Funny innit that at the beginning everyone was up in arms about Russia using clusters.

 

Now Merca want to send them to Ukraine and they are acceptable again. 2 Faced or wat!!

[RanongCat]

3 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

Great , but what about the nations birth rate regenerating the Ukrainian army ? I imagine there could be a time the births are much less than the men required to fill the ranks, whilst mad old Putin just drafts suckers and pays mercenaries

No shortage of refugees in the world ! Many are  the creation of Western infliction so fair is  fair.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, hughrection said:

Funny innit that at the beginning everyone was up in arms about Russia using clusters.

 

Now Merca want to send them to Ukraine and they are acceptable again. 2 Faced or wat!!

They're still using cluster bombs. How should Ukraine react?

[jvs]

1 minute ago, hughrection said:

Funny innit that at the beginning everyone was up in arms about Russia using clusters.

 

Now Merca want to send them to Ukraine and they are acceptable again. 2 Faced or wat!!

Well if russia can use cluster bombs so can the Ukraine,why not?

They are not illegal weapons and the Ukraine has promised to use them only against the russian army.

It will save a lot of Ukrainian lives.

[RanongCat]

2 minutes ago, hughrection said:

Funny innit that at the beginning everyone was up in arms about Russia using clusters.

 

Now Merca want to send them to Ukraine and they are acceptable again. 2 Faced or wat!!

No different over war crime. Merica withdrew from ICC , Russia never went there. Or Ukraine.

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

"came up" lol. There was nothing even remotely close to an application.

You said "Ukraine had no plans to join either NATO or the EU before the Russian invasion" , then when you're proven wrong you change to "There was nothing even remotely close to an application.". 

 

Typical 

[RanongCat]

1 minute ago, jvs said:

Well if russia can use cluster bombs so can the Ukraine,why not?

They are not illegal weapons and the Ukraine has promised to use them only against the russian army.

It will save a lot of Ukrainian lives.

So if Ukraine wins warwill it remove all uxb  to "save" people??

[ozimoron]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

You said "Ukraine had no plans to join either NATO or the EU before the Russian invasion" , then when you're proven wrong you change to "There was nothing even remotely close to an application.". 

 

Typical 

Where were the "plans"? Who "brought this up"?

[steven100]

28 minutes ago, sirineou said:

If they had stayed neutral Russia would never had gone in!! 

So what do you think would happen in the end? 

  No NATO membership but neutrality. But in addition for Russian withdrawal there has to be some sort of Autonomy in the eastern provinces . Do you think Russia  will abandon all the Ethnic Russians after all this bad blood?There are about 5 million Ethnic Russians living in these provinces.  what do you think will happen to them without autonomy and or Russian protection?

So if you think having at the end of a fight what you could have had to begin with, getting bloodied  and losing control of part of their country is a win.. Then I don't know what losing is. 

I

look Sirineou,  I don't know the answers and we don't know the answers,   but Ukraine was invaded by it's neighbour and no country will accept that.   period ......   whether they join NATO or not,  but do you think Zelenskey trust anything they say,  I wouldn't that's for damn sure.

[sirineou]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Ukraine had no plans to join either NATO or the EU before the Russian invasion.

Not true the invasion of Ukraine took place in February 2022.

  Ukraine was invited to join NATO in 2008 , Had 5,000 troops a year trained by NATO , and participated in NATO exercises . 2021 "Ukraine began joint military exercises with U.S. and other NATO troops ... warships began large-scale live fire exercises in the Black Sea. "

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/ukraine-holds-military-drills-with-us-forces-nato-allies-2021-09-20/

 

[jvs]

9 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

So if Ukraine wins warwill it remove all uxb  to "save" people??

uxb?

 

[RanongCat]

7 minutes ago, jvs said:

uxb?

 

Unexplode bomb(lets) for civilian death and  maimings post war.

[RanongCat]

9 minutes ago, jvs said:

uxb?

 

Same like many war weapon designed for terror and ban by  most civilized country.

[jvs]

3 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Unexplode bomb(lets) for civilian death and  maimings post war.

Yes the Ukrainians have promised to carefully use them and document where and when they are used.

The unexploded bomb(lets) in a USA produced clusterbomb is around 2.5 %

the clusterbombs used by the russians have a failure rate of 30%!

Do you think the russians will take all of their mines with them when the leave?

A non issue for me,use them to clear trenches .

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, steven100 said:

look Sirineou,  I don't know the answers and we don't know the answers,   but Ukraine was invaded by it's neighbour and no country will accept that.   period ......   whether they join NATO or not,  but do you think Zelenskey trust anything they say,  I wouldn't that's for damn sure.

The timeline that led to the invasion of Ukraine from 2008 to 2022 is well documented ,

The west was repeatedly warned that if the west continued toward expansion of NATO into Ukraine it will be viewed by the Russians as a defector declaration of war, by  many including Angela Merkel, and Present time CIA director, and at time ambassador to Russia who said in a leter to Condoles Rice.

"Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all red lines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.” Burns added that it was “hard to overstate the strategic consequences” of offering Ukraine NATO membership, which, he predicted, would “create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. "

Then when Russia invaded the US was surprised. Really? 

Zelinsky should have never involved his country in this misadventure. He will not be viewed favorably by History. 

 

[RanongCat]

3 minutes ago, jvs said:

Yes the Ukrainians have promised to carefully use them and document where and when they are used.

The unexploded bomb(lets) in a USA produced clusterbomb is around 2.5 %

the clusterbombs used by the russians have a failure rate of 30%!

Do you think the russians will take all of their mines with them when the leave?

A non issue for me,use them to clear trenches .

A non issue for people who will probably never walk at risk between 2.5% or 30 % to satisfy  your no risk desire.

[RanongCat]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The timeline that led to the invasion of Ukraine from 2008 to 2022 is well documented ,

The west was repeatedly warned that if the west continued toward expansion of NATO into Ukraine it will be viewed by the Russians as a defector declaration of war, by  many including Angela Merkel, and Present time CIA director, and at time ambassador to Russia who said in a leter to Condoles Rice.

"Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all red lines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.” Burns added that it was “hard to overstate the strategic consequences” of offering Ukraine NATO membership, which, he predicted, would “create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. "

Then when Russia invaded the US was surprised. Really? 

Zelinsky should have never involved his country in this misadventure. He will not be viewed favorably by History. 

 

A very sad udeniable  factor in majority of big military conflict to cause direct or indirect humanitarion problem has involved direction by 0ne nation that also boasts democratic motivation in enforcing  NATo.

[CharlieKo]

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

you mean like the Budapest agreement where they all lied and reneged on.   You think anyone would believe any security agreement from those lairs ever again ....   Ukraine made the mistake of agreeing then and I doubt they will ever go down that road ...

What about the Minsk agreement which was negotiated with Russia? Only for the west to recently admit it was only to allow Ukraine to arm and train to fight Russia. You think Russia trusts the west in any future negotiations? 

[steven100]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The timeline that led to the invasion of Ukraine from 2008 to 2022 is well documented ,

The west was repeatedly warned that if the west continued toward expansion of NATO into Ukraine it will be viewed by the Russians as a defector declaration of war, by  many including Angela Merkel, and Present time CIA director, and at time ambassador to Russia who said in a leter to Condoles Rice.

"Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all red lines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.” Burns added that it was “hard to overstate the strategic consequences” of offering Ukraine NATO membership, which, he predicted, would “create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. "

Then when Russia invaded the US was surprised. Really? 

Zelinsky should have never involved his country in this misadventure. He will not be viewed favorably by History. 

 

are you trying to make excuses for one aggressor country invading another ?   because it just doesn't vibe.

no excuse gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine and kill women and children.  

You won't convince me

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

What about the Minsk agreement which was negotiated with Russia? Only for the west to recently admit it was only to allow Ukraine to arm and train to fight Russia. You think Russia trusts the west in any future negotiations? 

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that a big problem with that agreement was that the Russians said it didn't apply to them?

Why has the 2015 agreement failed to end fighting in eastern Ukraine?
The Minsk II deal set out military and political steps that remain unimplemented.

A major blockage has been Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/9/what-is-the-minsk-agreement-and-why-is-it-relevant-now

Edited July 13, 2023 by placeholder

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, steven100 said:

are you trying to make excuses for one aggressor country invading another ?   because it just doesn't vibe.

no excuse gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine and kill women and children.  

You won't convince me

do you disagree with anything i wrote above?and if so how. please post links that support your opinion and stop trying to ascribe motives for what i wrote. everything i wrote is well documented. This is becoming ridiculous, Ioffer you well documented facts and you all offerme emotional opinion. This is getting stupid.

You all have a good night.

 

[steven100]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

do you disagree with anything i wrote above?and if so how. please post links that support your opinion and stop trying to ascribe motives for what i wrote. everything i wrote is well documented. This is becoming ridiculous, Ioffer you well documented facts and you all offerme emotional opinion. This is getting stupid.

You all have a good night.

 

are you trying to make excuses for one aggressor country invading another ?   because it just doesn't vibe.

no excuse gives Russia the right to invade Ukraine and kill women and children.  

You won't convince me  .....      one country does not have the right to invade it's neighbor.   

[CharlieKo]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that a big problem with that agreement was that the Russians said it didn't apply to them?

Why has the 2015 agreement failed to end fighting in eastern Ukraine?
The Minsk II deal set out military and political steps that remain unimplemented.

A major blockage has been Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/9/what-is-the-minsk-agreement-and-why-is-it-relevant-now

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that the big problem was that the west did not negotiate in good faith?

 

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/ 

 

Speaking in her interview for “Die Zeit”, published on December 7, German ex-Chancellor Merkel said the following: “The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to buy time for Ukraine. Ukraine used this time to become stronger, as you can see today. Ukraine in 2014-2015 and Ukraine today are not the same.” According to the ex-Chancellor, “it was clear for everyone” that the conflict was suspended and the problem was not resolved, “but it was exactly what gave Ukraine the priceless time.”

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that the big problem was that the west did not negotiate in good faith?

 

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/ 

 

Speaking in her interview for “Die Zeit”, published on December 7, German ex-Chancellor Merkel said the following: “The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to buy time for Ukraine. Ukraine used this time to become stronger, as you can see today. Ukraine in 2014-2015 and Ukraine today are not the same.” According to the ex-Chancellor, “it was clear for everyone” that the conflict was suspended and the problem was not resolved, “but it was exactly what gave Ukraine the priceless time.”

Given that both the Ukrainian Government and the rebels didn't abide by the agreement, why are you singling out the Ukrainian government?

Ukraine Rebels Dismiss Minsk Peace Deal, Push for More Territory

"Many rebel commanders and fighters make no pretense of their disdain for a cease-fire they say they never agreed to in the first place.

In an interview with the Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta, the commander of the feared Prizrak (Ghost) battalion in Luhansk, Alexey Mozgovoy, said he “never took the Minsk agreement seriously.”

Alan, an Ossetian fighter, who fought alongside the Russian military in the 2008 war with Georgia, told VOA, “There never was a cease-fire.”

https://www.voanews.com/a/ukraine-rebels-dismis-minsk-peace-deal-as-they-push-for-territory/2526484.html

[kwonitoy]

5 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

No, they won't lose.  Ukraine is running on fumes. The much touted "spring offensive" accomplished nothing- it is already mid July and no results to speak of. 

If Ukraine wants to commit national suicide, that is up to them. But I have a feeling most would prefer to live in peace with a neighbor that can be held in check.

Your feeling don't align with the facts

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3693846-most-ukrainians-support-fighting-until-war-is-won-survey/

 

The offensive is working in Ukraine's favor, it's not a TV series or movie. Offensive's against a entrenched enemy take time unless you use invader tactics and try and send conscripts to their death in a frontal push.

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

Not true the invasion of Ukraine took place in February 2022.

  Ukraine was invited to join NATO in 2008 , Had 5,000 troops a year trained by NATO , and participated in NATO exercises . 2021 "Ukraine began joint military exercises with U.S. and other NATO troops ... warships began large-scale live fire exercises in the Black Sea. "

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/ukraine-holds-military-drills-with-us-forces-nato-allies-2021-09-20/

 

Neither here or in any subsequent post have you provided any evidence that there was an application made by Ukraine or a an invitation from NATO to Ukraine to join NATO.

 

Discussions about the consequences of Ukraine joining NATO doesn't cut it. Australia has conducted military exercises with nations it doesn't have alliances with, it's a routine practice.

Edited July 13, 2023 by ozimoron

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that the big problem was that the west did not negotiate in good faith?

 

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/ 

 

Speaking in her interview for “Die Zeit”, published on December 7, German ex-Chancellor Merkel said the following: “The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to buy time for Ukraine. Ukraine used this time to become stronger, as you can see today. Ukraine in 2014-2015 and Ukraine today are not the same.” According to the ex-Chancellor, “it was clear for everyone” that the conflict was suspended and the problem was not resolved, “but it was exactly what gave Ukraine the priceless time.”

Huh?  How was giving Ukraine time to strengthen its armed forces to defend itself if attacked negotiating in bad faith?