My Bread Has Begun to Taste Like Cheap Supermarket Cake. Could this be a Ukraine-War-related Wheat Supply Problem? Or….?

[GammaGlobulin]

I have been baking bread for decades. And, during the past ten years, I have had pretty good luck with a Thai brand of bread flour. The exact gluten content of this flour is not listed on the packaging. The packaging states only that this flour contains gluten. And then it states that the contents “may contain soybean”.

 

About six weeks ago, I purchased another 20 kilograms of the same brand of flour I have always used in Thailand. But this time, my bread tastes sort of like CHEAP cake, and it has that disagreeable persistent “cakey” aftertaste.

 

Here are a few important changes I have made in the baking process:

 

1. I switched from using a 1-Kg-loaf bread-making machine to a new machine which bakes 1.5 Kg loaves.

2. I now use the same brand of bread flour as always, (but a new recent purchase). I do not know the gluten content. There is very little information on the packaging, but the supplier is a large company here in Thailand. (And, I have had good luck with this brand in the past.)

3. I use the same recipe, except I have increased the relative amounts of ingredients as follows: 840 grams of flour. 520 cc of water. 2.5 teaspoons of instant yeast (same brand). 4 or 5 tablespoons of granulated sugar. 4 tablespoons of sunflower oil. 2 teaspoons of salt.

4. I always select the “dark” setting on both machines.

5. Both machines turn out loaves that look OK.

6. I use PERFECT brand yeast which has not expired.

7. I do not proof the yeast.

 

So, anyway, does anyone have any suggestions? I do not bake bread to save money, but because it’s more convenient than traveling to the store. Also, I do not like the bread being sold here.

 

What I would really like is to duplicate the taste of the best bread I have ever eaten, which was bread available in Dalian and in Hairbin, China.  Must be the wheat up there, but it was amazing, and you could taste the wheat flavor.

 

I can’t think of what else to add here, except that I was paying about Bt35.00 per kilogram for the flour (for over five years), which now goes for Bt42.00 per kilo when I buy a case of 10 kilograms of 1-kilo packages of flour.

 

I would prefer not to dump the 20 kilos I bought six weeks ago IF I can solve the baking issue, if it is only a baking/recipe problem.  However, I doubt I can continue eating bread that tastes like cheap cake. (Of course, I would not “dump it” and instead would just give it to someone that might like it.)

 

Thank you.

 

Please note: I do not want to pay an exorbitant amount just for bread flour.  In the US and in China, bread flour is not expensive, and it seems quite satisfactory in flavor. However, I do prefer a loaf of bread where one can really taste the wheat.

 

 

 

 

[chickenslegs]

I also make my own bread, but not with a machine. My stand mixer does the hard work for me.

 

From what you describe, it seems possible that the new bread making machine is the cause of your issues. Maybe not kneading enough, too short (or too long) of a first rise, knock back insufficient, or temperature too high or low.

 

To ascertain whether it is the ingredients at fault why not try using your old machine with your new flour, to make a comparison. 

 

Recently, I have been substituting spelt flour and whole wheat for about 10% each of bread flour (swan brand) with good results. Spelt is expensive, but only small amount used [instead of 500g bread flour I use 400g + 50g spelt + 50g whole wheat].

 

I don't use sugar, except about 1tsp to prove the yeast.

 

 

 

[stoner]

53 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I switched from using a 1-Kg-loaf bread-making machine to a new machine which bakes 1.5 Kg loaves.

this may be your issue. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by stoner

[GammaGlobulin]

29 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

swan brand

Yes. You guessed it.

And...I have always LIKED this brand.

 

But then...

If you check the bottom of the package, you might see the words, "Contains Gluten. May contain Soybean."

 

So, why the "soybean" statement?

 

The package also states, "Wheat flour 100%".

 

Seems a bit confusing, at least to me.

 

(And, I will definitely try the suggestion of using the old machine with the new supply of flour to rule out that possibility.)

 

 

[CharlieKo]

3 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Yes. You guessed it.

And...I have always LIKED this brand.

 

But then...

If you check the bottom of the package, you might see the words, "Contains Gluten. May contain Soybean."

 

So, why the "soybean" statement?

 

The package also states, "Wheat flour 100%".

 

Seems a bit confusing, at least to me.

 

(And, I will definitely try the suggestion of using the old machine with the new supply of flour to rule out that possibility.)

 

 

Maybe they process soybean as well and can't guarantee cross contamination won't occur. 

[GammaGlobulin]

38 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

I also make my own bread, but not with a machine. My stand mixer does the hard work for me.

 

From what you describe, it seems possible that the new bread making machine is the cause of your issues. Maybe not kneading enough, too short (or too long) of a first rise, knock back insufficient, or temperature too high or low.

 

To ascertain whether it is the ingredients at fault why not try using your old machine with your new flour, to make a comparison. 

 

Recently, I have been substituting spelt flour and whole wheat for about 10% each of bread flour (swan brand) with good results. Spelt is expensive, but only small amount used [instead of 500g bread flour I use 400g + 50g spelt + 50g whole wheat].

 

I don't use sugar, except about 1tsp to prove the yeast.

 

 

 

So, in other words, just to clarify for myself:

 

400 grams of Swan Bread Flour

50 grams of whole wheat flour

50 grams of spelt flour   (adding the spelt will give it a richer "bread" flavor (I assume))

 

And, I know nothing about proofing the yeast for Bread-Machine baking.  And, with the yeast that I use, PERFECT brand, this probably should not be done, anyway...IF my understanding is correct.

 

As to not using sugar, the bread machine recipe calls for it.  And, without the sugar, the yeast might not have time to do it's thing, I had thought.

 

 

[thailandsgreat]

Darn Putin, you never know where he strikes next.

[GammaGlobulin]

2 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

Maybe they process soybean as well and can't guarantee cross contamination won't occur. 

Oh, yes.

That must be the reason.

 

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Yes. You guessed it.

And...I have always LIKED this brand.

 

But then...

If you check the bottom of the package, you might see the words, "Contains Gluten. May contain Soybean."

 

So, why the "soybean" statement?

 

The package also states, "Wheat flour 100%".

 

Seems a bit confusing, at least to me.

 

(And, I will definitely try the suggestion of using the old machine with the new supply of flour to rule out that possibility.)

Also use 'White Swan' bread flour (500g), fermipan (red) yeast (10g), salt (10g), water (350g), in stand mixer, and consistent results.

 

Two 30min proofing then into oven.

[GammaGlobulin]

Just for purposes of full disclosure, attached to this comment is a PDF copy of the 13 possible recipes from which to choose on the new bread machine I am using.  I am baking 1.5 Kg loaves using:

 

Recipe Number One on page 13.

However, I do not add milk powder.

 

So...

Any suggestions about a different recipe to try on this machine that might yield better results???

 

Tks.

 

(Maybe an important note: Instead of using 1 Tsp of PERFECT yeast... I am using 2.5 Tsp of PERFECT yeast.)

 

 

 

NEW BREAD MACHINE_13 recipes.pdf

Edited July 25, 2023 by GammaGlobulin

[chickenslegs]

2 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

So, in other words, just to clarify for myself:

 

400 grams of Swan Bread Flour

50 grams of whole wheat flour

50 grams of spelt flour   (adding the spelt will give it a richer "bread" flavor (I assume))

 

And, I know nothing about proofing the yeast for Bread-Machine baking.  And, with the yeast that I use, PERFECT brand, this probably should not be done, anyway...IF my understanding is correct.

 

As to not using sugar, the bread machine recipe calls for it.  And, without the sugar, the yeast might not have time to do it's thing, I had thought.

 

 

Proportions of flour: Yes, that is what I do - and, yes, I believe that the spelt gives a deeper flavour.

 

As I said I don't use a machine. What I do to prove the yeast is mix about 100g of the warm water with 1tsp of sugar, then add the yeast (I use Allinson's Easy Bake, sent from UK, or Pakmaya instant, Lotus, Big C etc.). Leave it for about 5 minutes until it froths up (obviously, if it doesn't froth up it's no good) then add it, with the rest of the water, to the mix. 

 

 

 

 

[chickenslegs]

4 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Just for purposes of full disclosure, attached to this comment is a PDF copy of the 13 possible recipes from which to choose on the new bread machine I am using.  I am baking 1.5 Kg loaves using:

 

Recipe Number One on page 13.

However, I do not add milk powder.

 

So...

Any suggestions about a different recipe to try on this machine that might yield better results???

 

Tks.

 

NEW BREAD MACHINE_13 recipes.pdf 1.77 MB · 0 downloads

Again, I am not a bread machine user.

 

Milk powder would contain fat (?) and would need to be hydrated.

 

If your recipe calls for milk powder and you do not add it, don't you need to adjust the liquid and fat inputs to your mix accordingly? Possibly reduce the water and add a little more fat (oil).

 

I'm just thinking out loud here. Maybe a bit of trial and error is called for until you get it right.

 

 

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

2 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

Again, I am not a bread machine user.

 

Milk powder would contain fat (?) and would need to be hydrated.

 

If your recipe calls for milk powder and you do not add it, don't you need to adjust the liquid and fat inputs to your mix accordingly? Possibly reduce the water and add a little more fat (oil).

 

I'm just thinking out loud here. Maybe a bit of trial and error is called for until you get it right.

 

 

 

 

I have, at least once, added one tablespoon too much oil, and it did not seem to appreciably affect the results.

My problem is that I am getting this somewhat sweet taste to the bread.

Very little "wheat" flavor.

 

I like bread that has practically zero sweetness.

(Naturally, I am aware that once bread is chewed, there will be conversion of the starch into maltose. But that is not the sweetness that I am talking about.)(And, of course, rye bread is usually not sweet. Likewise, why should white bread be sweet, unless too much sugar is added?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

26 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I like bread that has practically zero sweetness.

Then stop adding sugar, and use a 'low sugar' yeast ... red

[chickenslegs]

5 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I have, at least once, added one tablespoon too much oil, and it did not seem to appreciably affect the results.

My problem is that I am getting this somewhat sweet taste to the bread.

Very little "wheat" flavor.

 

I like bread that has practically zero sweetness.

(Naturally, I am aware that once bread is chewed, there will be conversion of the starch into maltose. But that is not the sweetness that I am talking about.)(And, of course, rye bread is usually not sweet. Likewise, why should white bread be sweet, unless too much sugar is added?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

In your OP your recipe includes 2 1/2tsp of yeast (1tbs) and 4-5 tbs of sugar. That seems like an enormous overload of sugar.

 

I use 1tsp of sugar to prove the yeast. All of it will be "consumed" by the yeast and not add any sweetness. Many bread recipes do not call for sugar at all.

 

This is my basic loaf recipe:

500g flour (usually 400g Swan, 50g spelt, 50g wholewheat)

300g liquid (usually 200g water and 100g whole milk)

60g fat (can be oil, but usually lard or butter, melted into the warm liquid)

10g yeast

10g salt

1tsp sugar (dissolved in about 100g of the liquid and yeast - as described previously)

 

I reckon if you double up on all the ingredients (except the sugar) and chuck it into your machine - set to 1kg loaf - you might get a decent loaf. What's the worst that could happen?

 

 

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Then stop adding sugar, and use a 'low sugar' yeast ... red

Thank you....!

Any suggestion about brand of yeast?

 

(Also, for those who are not using a "bread machine", there are probably a thousand proven recipes for bread on the internet.  However, since I happen to be using this particular bread machine...I had been under the impression that I should use one of the recommended recipes that came with the machine.)

 

Note:  While I do not have a true baking oven, similar to what is installed in most kitchens in the US, I do happen to have the largest Electrolux convection oven sold here in Thailand, which might be adequate for baking bread dough produced in the bread machine.. And then, I could use your suggestion of using no sugar, and 'low-sugar yeast'.

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

12 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

In your OP your recipe includes 2 1/2tsp of yeast (1tbs) and 4-5 tbs of sugar. That seems like an enormous overload of sugar.

 

I use 1tsp of sugar to prove the yeast. All of it will be "consumed" by the yeast and not add any sweetness. Many bread recipes do not call for sugar at all.

 

This is my basic loaf recipe:

500g flour (usually 400g Swan, 50g spelt, 50g wholewheat)

300g liquid (usually 200g water and 100g whole milk)

60g fat (can be oil, but usually lard or butter, melted into the warm liquid)

10g yeast

10g salt

1tsp sugar (dissolved in about 100g of the liquid and yeast - as described previously)

 

I reckon if you double up on all the ingredients (except the sugar) and chuck it into your machine - set to 1kg loaf - you might get a decent loaf. What's the worst that could happen?

 

 

 

 

a. Actually, as you can see from the attached "basic bread" recipe that came with the machine, it calls for only 1 Tsp of yeast (for a 1.5 Kg loaf)...However, as I posted in the OP, I decided to use 2.5 Tsp, since the old machine's recipe called for 2 Tsp of yeast for a 1 Kg loaf. I did this because I thought that I was using the wrong type of yeast, actually.

 

b.  I will certainly try your recipe when I am able to by the spelt and also the whole-wheat flour. I don't care what happens, anyway, and success will depend on the timing and the temperature of the machine.

 

c.  If the machine fails, then I will try your recipe in my convection oven.

 

d.  I am VERY interested to know what kind of, and what brand of, yeast you are using for this. (This is the question that ALWAYS puzzles me. The packaging of yeast here in Thailand is not always crystal clear!

 

 

NEW BREAD MACHINE_13 recipes.pdf

[chickenslegs]

9 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Thank you....!

Any suggestion about brand of yeast?

 

(Also, for those who are not using a "bread machine", there are probably a thousand proven recipes for bread on the internet.  However, since I happen to be using this particular bread machine...I had been under the impression that I should use one of the recommended recipes that came with the machine.)

 

Note:  While I do not have a true baking oven, similar to what is installed in most kitchens in the US, I do happen to have the largest Electrolux convection oven sold here in Thailand, which might be adequate for baking bread dough produced in the bread machine.. And then, I could use your suggestion of using no sugar, and 'low-sugar yeast'.

 

 

AFAIK a bread making machine just takes the labour out of baking. It does the mixing, kneading, proving, knocking back, and baking.

 

You are disappointed with the results of following the recipe so I would suggest that you try different recipes until you find one that suits your taste.

[chickenslegs]

25 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I am VERY interested to know what kind of, and what brand of, yeast you are using for this.

I like Allinson's  Easy Bake from the UK, but it's only affordable because I have someone who can post it to me. It comes in 100g sealed cans. Once opened it lasts for many weeks in the fridge.

 

I also recommend Pakmaya Instant which can be bought locally in 10g sachets or larger packs. Also keeps for a long time in the fridge.

 

Other brands in supermarkets here: Bruggeman and Fermipan come in vacuum packs of 200g or more. Again, can be refrigerated for many weeks.

 

I never had good results from "perfect" brand (in those little bottles) but ok for pizza bases.

 

(I always "prove" my yeast with sugar water before use - as described previously)

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

Reading what others have written about the Swan brand of flour, it seems that this brand is still as good as it ever was...which is QUITE GOOD, and it is offered at a good price, as well. I have used this brand, exclusively, for 10 years, and have always been pleased with the results.

 

Here is the link to the Swan Bread Flour product, and here you can see that the gluten content is very good for bread baking: 13.5% to 14.5%

https://ufm.co.th/product/แป้งหงส์ขาว-สำหรับทำขนม/

 

As to where the wheat is sourced, I don't think this information is listed.

Just how much (or if) the price of Swan flour has been affected by the problem in Ukraine is also not stated.

 

However, "even in the 2022-23 season — the first full year under Russia's invasion — Ukraine has held as the sixth-largest wheat shipper and third for corn. As the season came to a close at the end of June, Ukraine's grain exports were more than 48 million tons , about steady with the 2021-22 season."(https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-19/what-end-of-ukraine-grain-export-deal-means-for-the-world#xj4y7vzkg)

 

All that I do know is that I once purchased 1 Kg of Swan for Bt35 during a period of at least five years, and up until about February of this year.  And then, last time I purchased 20Kgs of Swan, the price rose to Bt42 per Kg. (I am not that price sensitive, and I do not care about a 7 baht increase per Kg.)

 

After reading the helpful comments here, it seems that the bread-machine's recipe is calling for what has been referred to in a comment above as a "TON of sugar", and this seems to be the culprit.

 

Interestingly as well, some here have stated that adding sugar to the recipe is just not necessary when baking bread using a conventional oven. But is this true when using a bread machine? Apparently, yes, it is true, as I found when referring to this website's discussion of bread-machine baking and sugar: https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/learn/guides/bread-machines#:~:text=Although yeast makes its own,'t brown as well).

 

King Arthur states: "If you need to avoid sugar, just leave it out; your bread will be just fine, although you may find it doesn’t brown as well."

 

Well, I will see tomorrow when I try again, but this time with ZERO sugar added to the recipe.

 

But then, why does this recipe call for a TON of sugar?  My only thinking is that this bread machine was made in China.  And, I wonder if this recipe might be more suited to places in China (especially Taiwan) where people prefer bread which tastes like cheap cake. If you have ever been to Taiwan, then you know. The bread there is almost inedible if you are used to the taste of bread in some western countries.

 

I still have a full uncut 1.5Kg loaf of bread that I baked this afternoon. I will NOT eat it myself because it is really that disagreeable. It's for the birds, in my opinion. And, therefore, I now have 1.5Kgs of bread which I will feed to my bird friends here, especially the Thai Myna birds, but not the pigeons.

 

As for the "low sugar yeast", I might search for that, too, if it's easily available where I live, and if necessary.

 

And, I will try the other suggestions made here for brands of yeast. I am sure that what I have read is true that bread flavor can be easily altered by choice of yeast, and hopefully enhanced in my case.

 

Thank you for the advice!

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

53 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

I like Allinson's  Easy Bake from the UK, but it's only affordable because I have someone who can post it to me. It comes in 100g sealed cans. Once opened it lasts for many weeks in the fridge.

 

I also recommend Pakmaya Instant which can be bought locally in 10g sachets or larger packs. Also keeps for a long time in the fridge.

 

Other brands in supermarkets here: Bruggeman and Fermipan come in vacuum packs of 200g or more. Again, can be refrigerated for many weeks.

 

I never had good results from "perfect" brand (in those little bottles) but ok for pizza bases.

 

(I always "prove" my yeast with sugar water before use - as described previously)

 

 

I will try the brands you suggest, while keeping in mind that, according to the King Arthur bread-machine site I linked, I should use "instant yeast" for bread-machine baking.

 

 

[KhunLA]

8 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Thank you....!

Any suggestion about brand of yeast?

 

Note:  While I do not have a true baking oven, similar to what is installed in most kitchens in the US, I do happen to have the largest Electrolux convection oven sold here in Thailand, which might be adequate for baking bread dough produced in the bread machine.. And then, I could use your suggestion of using no sugar, and 'low-sugar yeast'.

 

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Also use 'White Swan' bread flour (500g), fermipan (red) yeast (10g), salt (10g), water (350g), in stand mixer, and consistent results.

 

Two 30min proofing then into oven.

I also use an Electrolux counter top oven.

 

Use this recipe, can use processor, stand mixer, or by hand (about 10mins of kneading)  I do one 30min proof on table top, then 30 min proof in 1 bread pan, for 1 loaf, no baguettes (no ice/water/steam).  Rest is the same.

Bread @ 7:20 of vid:

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by KhunLA

[Gandtee]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:22 PM, GammaGlobulin said:

I have been baking bread for decades. And, during the past ten years, I have had pretty good luck with a Thai brand of bread flour. The exact gluten content of this flour is not listed on the packaging. The packaging states only that this flour contains gluten. And then it states that the contents “may contain soybean”.

 

About six weeks ago, I purchased another 20 kilograms of the same brand of flour I have always used in Thailand. But this time, my bread tastes sort of like CHEAP cake, and it has that disagreeable persistent “cakey” aftertaste.

 

Here are a few important changes I have made in the baking process:

 

1. I switched from using a 1-Kg-loaf bread-making machine to a new machine which bakes 1.5 Kg loaves.

2. I now use the same brand of bread flour as always, (but a new recent purchase). I do not know the gluten content. There is very little information on the packaging, but the supplier is a large company here in Thailand. (And, I have had good luck with this brand in the past.)

3. I use the same recipe, except I have increased the relative amounts of ingredients as follows: 840 grams of flour. 520 cc of water. 2.5 teaspoons of instant yeast (same brand). 4 or 5 tablespoons of granulated sugar. 4 tablespoons of sunflower oil. 2 teaspoons of salt.

4. I always select the “dark” setting on both machines.

5. Both machines turn out loaves that look OK.

6. I use PERFECT brand yeast which has not expired.

7. I do not proof the yeast.

 

So, anyway, does anyone have any suggestions? I do not bake bread to save money, but because it’s more convenient than traveling to the store. Also, I do not like the bread being sold here.

 

What I would really like is to duplicate the taste of the best bread I have ever eaten, which was bread available in Dalian and in Hairbin, China.  Must be the wheat up there, but it was amazing, and you could taste the wheat flavor.

 

I can’t think of what else to add here, except that I was paying about Bt35.00 per kilogram for the flour (for over five years), which now goes for Bt42.00 per kilo when I buy a case of 10 kilograms of 1-kilo packages of flour.

 

I would prefer not to dump the 20 kilos I bought six weeks ago IF I can solve the baking issue, if it is only a baking/recipe problem.  However, I doubt I can continue eating bread that tastes like cheap cake. (Of course, I would not “dump it” and instead would just give it to someone that might like it.)

 

Thank you.

 

Please note: I do not want to pay an exorbitant amount just for bread flour.  In the US and in China, bread flour is not expensive, and it seems quite satisfactory in flavor. However, I do prefer a loaf of bread where one can really taste the wheat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 7/25/2023 at 8:22 PM, GammaGlobulin said:

 

 

 

 

4/5 Tablespoons sugar? No wonder it tastes like cake. For 1200g of flour I add 1 teaspoon of sugar to the active yeast water. I must confess that the flour now seems to vary a bit.

[stix40]

Can anyone recommend a good bakery in Changmai area that sells Crusty Farmhouse Bread ????

Fed up with Thai Bread that is too Sweet.

Thanks in advance.

[alanrchase]

It tastes like cake because your recipe is similar to a cake recipe. It seems with bread makers you have no choice other than adding sugar and fat. I suggest you give it a go with 4/5 teaspoons of sugar. For hand made bread I only use flour, water, yeast and salt.

[Wobblybob]

Sugar is not required, flour has its own sugar in it. Tried bread machines, kneading by hand and a stand mixer, the stand mixer wins every time. Don't over yeast the bread as you will taste the yeast when baked. 

 

[Wobblybob]

14 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Sugar is not required, flour has its own sugar in it. Tried bread machines, kneading by hand and a stand mixer, the stand mixer wins every time. Don't over yeast the bread as you will taste the yeast when baked. 

 

Forgot to add always weigh the ingredients and you will get the same results every time.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by Wobblybob

[Lacessit]

One of my functions during my working life was problem-solving. Without exception, problems with a process or a product arose because someone, somewhere, had made a change in the system. Buying inferior raw material to save money, or tinkering with a process in an attempt to save time. It was the same whenever I was tasked by my own employer, a supplier or a customer. I usually made myself quite unpopular with the person(s) who had made the change.

 

Fixing such problems usually involved gathering data, then going back to square one, and feeding in single variables to determine which was causing the problem.

 

I'd recommend the OP go back to what he was originally doing to get good results. If the product is good, it's the changes he has made. If not, it's the flour.

 

Using Occam's razor, if the bread now tastes like cake, it has too much sugar.

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, alanrchase said:

It tastes like cake because your recipe is similar to a cake recipe. It seems with bread makers you have no choice other than adding sugar and fat. I suggest you give it a go with 4/5 teaspoons of sugar. For hand made bread I only use flour, water, yeast and salt.

You don't need sugar or fat to turn out good bread.  They are flavor and texture enhancers.

 

My bread is tasty, using just; flour, yeast, salt, water.   Taste & texture perfect for me, and for most uses. 

 

Used bread maker back in USA, and don't recall the need for sugar or oil.  Now/TH have used food processor and stand mixer.  

[alanrchase]

Just now, KhunLA said:

You don't need sugar or fat to turn out good bread.  They are flavor and texture enhancers.

 

My bread is tasty, using just; flour, yeast, salt, water.   Taste & texture perfect for me, and for most uses. 

 

Used bread maker back in USA, and don't recall the need for sugar or oil.  Now/TH have used food processor and stand mixer.  

I know you don't need sugar or fat to make bread. That is why my last sentence stated that I only use flour, water, yeast and salt. 

I have never used a bread maker but I keep seeing sugar and fat in the bread recipes for them. I assume it is because people expect the bread to be ready two hours after they start and that can only  be achieved using sugar.