which tile adhesive?

[gejohesch]

4 minutes ago, gejohesch said:

I know, I know, and I understand your reaction. Someone already commented that "tiles will not fit nice on the floor as shown in my pic". I'm aware of that. As I already said, that is not going to be exactly the floor on which I will place the tiles. I had to fill places as deep as 15 cm in parts to bring the area to about the right horizontal level. I consider that as Part 1 of the job. Part 2 will be adding a thin layer on top to make it smooth and "tile-ready". As it is a large area (50 sq m), I probably will get it done by a local worker I know who is used to doing that sort of thing. One reason I did not get that guy to do Part 1 is that he demonstrated in previous jobs that he has a very dim understanding of what "horizontal, vertical, parallel and square angle" mean!

In addition, there is one way of doing things that I think is characteristic of many Thai people which is : being over-confident and doing things too fast". Just see how they drive, or how they play pool! That's one of the reasons walls end up not being vertical, walls end up not being at 90 degrees from each other, windows don't open and close neatly etc...

[itsari]

14 hours ago, gejohesch said:

See the pic showing how I'm leveling the ground. I'm sure the "pros" will have a lot to say about my "method" but here I am, I'm not a pro. As the surface is quite large, I built a series a ridges to the desired level and then filled in between. Where deep enough, I used blocks, red bricks and gross gravel to fill in as much space as possible before pouring in the mortar made from cement + sand + finer gravel.

 

I know one could set up wooden planks by the sides to the desired level, but the ground was already hard cement so I could not do that.

 

I've checked the link to the "Crocodile" brand, very useful, thanks!

I would of considered taking up the old concrete and pour new concrete . 

[novacova]

14 hours ago, gejohesch said:

See the pic showing how I'm leveling the ground. I'm sure the "pros" will have a lot to say about my "method" but here I am, I'm not a pro. As the surface is quite large, I built a series a ridges to the desired level and then filled in between. Where deep enough, I used blocks, red bricks and gross gravel to fill in as much space as possible before pouring in the mortar made from cement + sand + finer gravel.

 

I know one could set up wooden planks by the sides to the desired level, but the ground was already hard cement so I could not do that.

 

I've checked the link to the "Crocodile" brand, very useful, thanks!

Personally I would tear out the concrete and lay a new subfloor from the dirt/gravel up, only a couple days of extra work for a much better finish and the tiles won’t lift with a consistent uniform subfloor. That’s just me me though.

[Yellowtail]

Dude is talking about 40-50 square meters of tile. 

 

Assuming it is only 10cm thick (not likely) that's 4-5 cubic meters of concrete, or about ten to twelve tons. It almost certainly has reinforcing mesh, which means just breaking it up is not going to be a party, much less toting it out and hauling it off. 

 

Now site-work has to be done, the soil recompacted, graded, forms built, mesh laid and 4-5 cubic meters of fresh concrete delivered and like wheel-barrowed in, screeded, floated and troweled-off. 

 

I agree absolutely that the results would likely be better, but that is a good bit of work for a guy working by himself that has no equipment or experience. Setting tile is not difficult or complicated, but everything is heavy, and it is hard work. 

 

 

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, gejohesch said:

That's for sure! I plan to space the tiles by 5mm this time (I did with 2 mm when I "experimented" at the back of the house). I already have the spacers for that. I also bought the grout already (Home Pro) and made sure : it clearly states "2 to 7 mm" (I'm aware the grout recipe changes with the spacing).

 

Re. your previous message, I understand the point about putting in (carefully!) a few tiles, then make  a new batch of tile adhesive etc. What worries me in this is the time it will take me to make that new batch, while the adhesive already in place hardens : if I use the plastic "levelers", I can only use them within the set of tiles I just laid in, and not at the edges of those tiles because the adhesive will become too hard when I come back to put in a new set of tiles?

I never did it myself. It seems the best way is that you have an assistant to prepare the adhesive, hand you the tiles, etc. 

 

The following picture is from my renovation done by a professional tiler. I made the picture after he finished for one day. You see that there are no plastic parts at the edges. The tiler will put them there when he puts the next row of tiles next to the already installed tiles.

[OneMoreFarang]

This is a box from the tiles I used. There is lots of information on that box. 

[recom273]

17 hours ago, gejohesch said:

Yes thanks, indeed I use plastic spacers, I really don't see why I should not, it's cheap enough. Saying that because I've seen the local handymen using matchsticks.....

 

As a reply to the ones who contributed above (thanks to them again!), I remember seeing a woman laying down tiles in Phairath, big shop close to the airport in Khon Kaen, and she was very impressive, so yes of course there are excellent tilers I'm sure in Thailand - that's just not what I've seen done in the village.....

 

Also, all these comments about using cement.... maybe, but there must be a good reason why special tile mortar is made, and I have seen enough not to automatically take the "Thai way of doing things" as an example to follow!

Are you in KKC? There is a Facebook group, its in Thai, something about tradesmen (chang) in Khon Kaen maybe ask your wife to search - You can find a few tilers in the group, they all take great pride in showing their work - there are some really nice jobs presented there, you dont have to rely upon village tilers who think lasers are tools of the devil.

[gejohesch]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Dude is talking about 40-50 square meters of tile. 

 

Assuming it is only 10cm thick (not likely) that's 4-5 cubic meters of concrete, or about ten to twelve tons. It almost certainly has reinforcing mesh, which means just breaking it up is not going to be a party, much less toting it out and hauling it off. 

 

Now site-work has to be done, the soil recompacted, graded, forms built, mesh laid and 4-5 cubic meters of fresh concrete delivered and like wheel-barrowed in, screeded, floated and troweled-off. 

 

I agree absolutely that the results would likely be better, but that is a good bit of work for a guy working by himself that has no equipment or experience. Setting tile is not difficult or complicated, but everything is heavy, and it is hard work. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, excellent comments. May I say, I have the impression that some here are pros experienced with how it's done in other countries, and probably on a commercial scale and from scratch - i.e. are used to "perfect / professional jobs"? That's not my situation. And I'm not concerned with the ground breaking off or whatever, it's solid concrete. So I'm building on it. That's already sufficient hard work for me!

[gejohesch]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I never did it myself. It seems the best way is that you have an assistant to prepare the adhesive, hand you the tiles, etc. 

 

The following picture is from my renovation done by a professional tiler. I made the picture after he finished for one day. You see that there are no plastic parts at the edges. The tiler will put them there when he puts the next row of tiles next to the already installed tiles.

Thanks, that's useful. I think one just has to be a bit careful when laying in the next set of tiles, making sure they level with the previous set. That's not terribly difficult after all (I've done that when "experimenting" with tiling up a wall at the back of the house - just worked fine).

[gejohesch]

41 minutes ago, recom273 said:

Are you in KKC? There is a Facebook group, its in Thai, something about tradesmen (chang) in Khon Kaen maybe ask your wife to search - You can find a few tilers in the group, they all take great pride in showing their work - there are some really nice jobs presented there, you dont have to rely upon village tilers who think lasers are tools of the devil.

Will check it up

[OneMoreFarang]

In case it wasn't mentioned already, make sure you have a slight slope so that water can drain from the surface. 

[gejohesch]

On 9/2/2023 at 5:18 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

In case it wasn't mentioned already, make sure you have a slight slope so that water can drain from the surface. 

Thanks for the advice, but I find it challenging to achieve that over a surface of ca. 50 sq m. I would have to use some laser tool, I guess. Plus - and that is also a reply to the (justified) critics about how rough I had made the floor ("not fit for tiling etc") - I have now got a local guy to smooth the surface out (see pic, and compare with the pic I gave earlier), and the point is that the guy can only achieve a 95% flat and horizontal surface at best, I am pretty certain he would not be able to give the surface a gentle dip for water evacuation.

Also, the whole area is covered by a roof. It's a kitchen + sitting area that I had built between my wife's 2 houses, it's open on one end, i.e. not completely walled up. So, there is no rain coming in.

Finally, I have made sure that the tiles will be parallel / perpendicular to the wall on the left on the pic. That wall is the dominant feature within the area to tile up, separating the kitchen from the sitting area. It is not at a right angle to the wall on the right (the one with the windows)!

Now, I'm waiting 3 or 4 days for the cement to cure a bit before starting with the tiles. Note that in my experience, the locals would not wait and start the next day after cementing....

[OneMoreFarang]

All the best for your project. After we finish such projects, we always know what we should have done differently.

 

About the slope: hopefully you have no water. But I remember a bathroom which I had in a previous apartment. It had a little slope - in the wrong direction. The result was that every time there was a little water on the floor, we had to use one of those rubber scrubbers to move it to the drain. Not a lot of work, but it was annoying. That's why I commented about that slope.

 

And about the laser: It's nice to have, and those things are not expensive anymore. 

[Yellowtail]

Do you really think workman were not able to grade or level a slab before we had lasers? 

 

Clear water hose, chalk-line and a scale are all you need for perfect grading and or leveling. 

[gejohesch]

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you really think workman were not able to grade or level a slab before we had lasers? 

 

Clear water hose, chalk-line and a scale are all you need for perfect grading and or leveling. 

Of course, as you say, water hose and chalk line (or red string set on nails as I see it done here). Achieving a gentle and regular dip is probably a different matter.

[gejohesch]

11 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

All the best for your project. After we finish such projects, we always know what we should have done differently.

 

About the slope: hopefully you have no water. But I remember a bathroom which I had in a previous apartment. It had a little slope - in the wrong direction. The result was that every time there was a little water on the floor, we had to use one of those rubber scrubbers to move it to the drain. Not a lot of work, but it was annoying. That's why I commented about that slope.

 

And about the laser: It's nice to have, and those things are not expensive anymore. 

I have exactly the same problem when I visit my parents. They only have one bathroom and every time I take a shower I have to spend time getting the water to the drain. Annoying indeed.

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, gejohesch said:

Of course, as you say, water hose and chalk line (or red string set on nails as I see it done here). Achieving a gentle and regular dip is probably a different matter.

It's not a different matter at all. For decent drainage you want about 2% grade, or 20mm/meter.

 

 

 

 

[gejohesch]

44 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It's not a different matter at all. For decent drainage you want about 2% grade, or 20mm/meter.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, I know that. Just go and explain it to the local guys around here, they cannot even manage a perfectly horizontal surface, and that even after using the water tube, making marks etc!

[gejohesch]

6 hours ago, gejohesch said:

Thanks, I know that. Just go and explain it to the local guys around here, they cannot even manage a perfectly horizontal surface, and that even after using the water tube, making marks etc!

My intention is not to complain about everything in Thailand. It's a wonderful country in so many respects. But when it comes to getting certain things done, one should know it's not going to be like "back home". It may be useful for some to read about my experiences with building work in Isan.

 

This discussion started about tiling. Just to conclude, I got the ground finished up by a local worker (50 sq m, 1000 baht), after I had levelled it up (it was severely dipping and very irregular to start with). The first pic show what I end up with. I splashed water over it to see how horizontal it really is. Where the water stands shows where it is not (areas outlined in red; see the reflections). Fortunately, it's only a matter of a few mm here and there, and I think I can easily correct for that when laying the tiles in - just use a bit more of tile adhesive where required.

 

Now, I had a lot of work done in my wife's 2 houses and I started realising that I should not leave the workers out of my eyes for a second. First example of what can go wrong: the sliding door to our en-suite bathroom. The pic show that the door itself lines up with the electric box by the side of it (green lines). However, the door frame was not set perfectly vertical : see the red lines. No surprise, the door is not sliding 100% perfect, it has a slight tendency to catch in the groove.

 

Second, a good example of a window not being right. It’s the same story as the sliding door, just a lot worse. One of the sliding panes is vertical (green), the other one is not (red).

 

Third, a pillar built at the entrance of one of the houses is clearly not vertical (I have several such examples). OK, its only function is just to stay there and support whatever is on top – a few degrees of vertical will not jeopardise that function!

 

Finally, I had a wall recently built by the street side. It obviously deviates strongly from certical (red). One can even see a light pole in the street through one of the small openings in the brickwork : it’s vertical (green). NB : all poles installed in the street in Thailand are not necessarily vertical. ????

 

Maybe my bad luck is that I found my wife’s houses good enough initially and only wanting a bit of renovation? If I counted all the efforts, time and money spent over the years….. ????

 

Summary : one has to be prepared to either spend a lot of money to get a reputable building team, well supervised, to do the work; or spend a significant amount of time controlling the work as it is being done (and good luck to get the workers understand what you are talking about, even if your Thai is OK); or accept the unavoidable imperfections (maybe consider them as part of the charm of living in this country?).

 

[gejohesch]

2 minutes ago, gejohesch said:

My intention is not to complain about everything in Thailand. It's a wonderful country in so many respects. But when it comes to getting certain things done, one should know it's not going to be like "back home". It may be useful for some to read about my experiences with building work in Isan.

 

This discussion started about tiling. Just to conclude, I got the ground finished up by a local worker (50 sq m, 1000 baht), after I had levelled it up (it was severely dipping and very irregular to start with). The first pic show what I end up with. I splashed water over it to see how horizontal it really is. Where the water stands shows where it is not (areas outlined in red; see the reflections). Fortunately, it's only a matter of a few mm here and there, and I think I can easily correct for that when laying the tiles in - just use a bit more of tile adhesive where required.

 

Now, I had a lot of work done in my wife's 2 houses and I started realising that I should not leave the workers out of my eyes for a second. First example of what can go wrong: the sliding door to our en-suite bathroom. The pic show that the door itself lines up with the electric box by the side of it (green lines). However, the door frame was not set perfectly vertical : see the red lines. No surprise, the door is not sliding 100% perfect, it has a slight tendency to catch in the groove.

 

Second, a good example of a window not being right. It’s the same story as the sliding door, just a lot worse. One of the sliding panes is vertical (green), the other one is not (red).

 

Third, a pillar built at the entrance of one of the houses is clearly not vertical (I have several such examples). OK, its only function is just to stay there and support whatever is on top – a few degrees of vertical will not jeopardise that function!

 

Finally, I had a wall recently built by the street side. It obviously deviates strongly from certical (red). One can even see a light pole in the street through one of the small openings in the brickwork : it’s vertical (green). NB : all poles installed in the street in Thailand are not necessarily vertical. ????

 

Maybe my bad luck is that I found my wife’s houses good enough initially and only wanting a bit of renovation? If I counted all the efforts, time and money spent over the years….. ????

 

Summary : one has to be prepared to either spend a lot of money to get a reputable building team, well supervised, to do the work; or spend a significant amount of time controlling the work as it is being done (and good luck to get the workers understand what you are talking about, even if your Thai is OK); or accept the unavoidable imperfections (maybe consider them as part of the charm of living in this country?).

 

For the ticklers amongst you : the wall on the last pic is not finished. Cosmetic work is still coming!

[gejohesch]

On 9/1/2023 at 2:05 PM, Elkski said:

Hate ro rain on your hard work but you absolutely dont know what your doing.   That floor looks terrible.  No way are all those batches going to adhere to to each other or the floor.  You've really created a mess.   There are products called SLC self leveling compounds.  You mix and pour in one quick continuous pour.   Its expensive . You need spiked shoes and a Spike roller. There is a min amd max thickness allowed and a primer is required.    You could also consider a dry mud bed.   Minimum 3/4"   its a mix of sand and cement water, Barely balls up when you sqeeze it.   You must wet the dry cement pad first.  Scree it really flat.  

 Oh my.  Im being polite  

Coming back to your comment. As I said earlier, I had the ground leveled up by a local worker, to smooth out all the irregularities ..... But, the result was not perfect, maybe only "95%" perfect ????and I could see it here and there rising a bit, and a few "gentle" hollows left. All that I thought was just a matter of a few mm and I could make up for it when putting the tiles up. .... Except that it did not work that simply! I realised quickly that a difference of a few mm (say in excess of 2-3 mm) would cause problems just about everywhere. Possibly a professional tiler would have the skills and experience to cope with it but I'm a beginner and frankly, I regret a bit having started the job myself. I have done a few sq metres already but with spending a lot of time scraping out at places to get the tiles in reasonable line-up. And it's not perfect. I realise that as soon as there is a misalignment of say more than 1-2 mm, anyone can see it!

 

That being said, it's not bad for an amateur, I think, and I'm not going to call on a pro to finish the job up. So, I see myself at work for a couple of weeks ahead. ????The silver lining is that I will then have a lot more skills and  experience .... to use somewhere else! Also, the area I'm tiling is rather back of the houses (we have 2 next to each other), so a 95% job will still be good enough. ????

[gejohesch]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:34 AM, gejohesch said:

Coming back to your comment. As I said earlier, I had the ground leveled up by a local worker, to smooth out all the irregularities ..... But, the result was not perfect, maybe only "95%" perfect ????and I could see it here and there rising a bit, and a few "gentle" hollows left. All that I thought was just a matter of a few mm and I could make up for it when putting the tiles up. .... Except that it did not work that simply! I realised quickly that a difference of a few mm (say in excess of 2-3 mm) would cause problems just about everywhere. Possibly a professional tiler would have the skills and experience to cope with it but I'm a beginner and frankly, I regret a bit having started the job myself. I have done a few sq metres already but with spending a lot of time scraping out at places to get the tiles in reasonable line-up. And it's not perfect. I realise that as soon as there is a misalignment of say more than 1-2 mm, anyone can see it!

 

That being said, it's not bad for an amateur, I think, and I'm not going to call on a pro to finish the job up. So, I see myself at work for a couple of weeks ahead. ????The silver lining is that I will then have a lot more skills and  experience .... to use somewhere else! Also, the area I'm tiling is rather back of the houses (we have 2 next to each other), so a 95% job will still be good enough. ????

1 month later, after a lot of work, I think I have finished tiling up the main part of the area I was talking about (I still have to do the "kitchen" part behind the 1/2 way wall which has those white tiles).

 

I post 2 jpegs for an overview and for the detail. It's shining nice because I just rinsed the tiles 😉. Granted, it's not a pro work, but for an amateur, I think it's pretty acceptable! Still have to do a few cosmetics, repaint the bottom of the walls and columns....

 

It's a lot of work, for sure. At the same time, I have the satisfaction to have acquired new skills and I feel proud about it. Sure, next time I will do better!

[Yellowtail]

Looks good, great job!

 

 

[gejohesch]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Looks good, great job!

 

 

Thanks!