Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, bugger bognor said:

what kind of idiot voluntarily goes to the RD  and trys to get a tax number I joked about USA citizens doing just that queuing desperately for a TN NUMBER  I can't believe people are so enthusiastic when there is absolutely no enforcement and wont be for a decade NO ENFORCEMENT= NO COMPLIANCE even if there was some enforcement it is not illegal to do your utmost to avoid paying tax here so many ways around it unfortunately people are so dim they can't see the answer and it's sitting in adjoining countries to Thailand I will not be needing any expert advice how not to pay tax even if the regulation was forced upon us and would be legal, your constant analysing and in depth arguments are stopping you see the wood from the trees! being kind as I can all I would say is the majority of you have no common sense...

 

If you know you won't exceed the minimum assessible income threshold, I agree, you don't need to go and get a TIN. But if you do and you owe tax, that's a different story.

[bugger bognor]

Where's the enforcement? when have the Thai government said expats retirees have got to get a Tax number by law and submit accounts the answer is they haven't!  Pray tell me has Thailand started training thousands of new staff to understand all the tax rules in the dual tax treaty countries and tax thresholds ready for idiots queuing up voluntarily with boxes of statements and receipts and accounts to decipher in 2025 are they ready for 350000 thousand expats accounts to be submitted has any government department declared you will need to do anything  by law absolutely not!! if your stupid enough to volunteer your accounts and pay any tax here thats your own utter stupidity.

You must be living in a parallel universe...

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

Where's the enforcement? when have the Thai government said expats retirees have got to get a Tax number by law and submit accounts the answer is they haven't!  Pray tell me has Thailand started training thousands of new staff to understand all the tax rules in the dual tax treaty countries and tax thresholds ready for idiots queuing up voluntarily with boxes of statements and receipts and accounts to decipher in 2025 are they ready for 350000 thousand expats accounts to be submitted has any government department declared you will need to do anything  by law absolutely not!! if your stupid enough to volunteer your accounts and pay any tax here thats your own utter stupidity.

You must be living in a parallel universe... 

 

The obligation to understand and comply with the laws of the country you live in rests with the individual, nobody is going to come round to your house and tell you personally that you must do this or that, you are supposed to know, just as you are supposed to know in any country, Thailand is not unique in this respect.

 

The Revenue Department tax rules have existed for decades and have largely been unchanged, the fact that both the Revenue and many foreigners (not all) have chosen to ignore them or soft pedal, is not really relevant, those laws always existed. Last year, the Revenue said they were going to tighten compliance and the rules and the media has been letting everyone know, in no uncertain terms, that they are now required to comply with the tax rules and that they will no longer be ignored. If you or anyone else choses to continue to ignore those rules, that is your choice, just be aware that the excuse of, "I didn't know" has been used up!

 

I presume from what you have written that you have never filed a tax return because nobody queues up with boxes of statements etc. Tax filing is done on the basis of the honor system, you declare your income and calculate your liability, that is either accepted or not. If it is not, that's when the boxes of statements come in but frankly, that's going to be one in a hundred or more hence there's no need to recruit and train up lots of staff, especially since tax returns are filed online anyway.

 

I am tempted at this juncture to mention what happens to people who don't pay taxes that they owe in Thailand or the strong possibility that tax filings will be linked to other aspects of expat lives here but somebody, probably you, will tell me it's all scare mongering so I wont even mention those things. I can tell already that you are a hair shirt kind of guy who simple tells every one to bring it on because you're not going to be so stupid as to pay tax. That's fine, that's your choice and I wish you good luck with whatever decision you make.

 

[Badrabbit]

No need for anyone to be insulting.

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

No need for anyone to be insulting.

I agree, posters should be aware that the pre-edited posts remain available for us to view!

[Klonko]

2 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

what kind of idiot voluntarily goes to the RD  and trys to get a tax number 

Because the idiot may have been asked by a foreign bank to provide a Thai tax ID as Thai tax resident. I have no assessable income in Thailand to date, but it may be easier to get a Thai tax ID than convincing my foreign bank's compliance department.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I am tempted at this juncture to mention what happens to people who don't pay taxes that they owe in Thailand or the strong possibility that tax filings will be linked to other aspects of expat lives here but somebody, probably you, will tell me it's all scare mongering so I wont even mention those things.

 

What will be extremely helpful to mention and quote are real-life examples of the average Joe expat being audited, fined and penalized for having not paid tax (i.e. Personal Income Tax) they owed.

 

With such cases of individual tax law enforcement, everyone could evaluate real risks involved then decide accordingly.

 

If it can't be found, then even real-life tax law enforcement examples on locals could at some extent be useful.

 

[EVENKEEL]

3 hours ago, Klonko said:

Because the idiot may have been asked by a foreign bank to provide a Thai tax ID as Thai tax resident. I have no assessable income in Thailand to date, but it may be easier to get a Thai tax ID than convincing my foreign bank's compliance department.

So why would you volunteer your Thai bank info to your home country bank and visa versa? I don't consider myself living in Thailand, just an extended stay. 

[Gknrd]

5 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

what kind of idiot voluntarily goes to the RD  and trys to get a tax number I joked about USA citizens doing just that queuing desperately for a TN NUMBER  I can't believe people are so enthusiastic when there is absolutely no enforcement and wont be for a decade NO ENFORCEMENT= NO COMPLIANCE even if there was some enforcement it is not illegal to do your utmost to avoid paying tax here so many ways around it unfortunately people are so dim they can't see the answer and it's sitting in adjoining countries to Thailand I will not be needing any expert advice how not to pay tax even if the regulation was forced upon us and would be legal, your constant analysing and in depth arguments are stopping you see the wood from the trees! being kind as I can all I would say is the majority of you have no common sense...

This tax is for the 99.9% of foreigners that never leave their front porch in Thailand. Business people that follow the law etc. They have made staying in Thailand without a retirement visa so difficult, that many will pay and not say much. 

Edited January 27 by Gknrd

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

So why would you volunteer your Thai bank info to your home country bank and visa versa? I don't consider myself living in Thailand, just an extended stay. 

You may consider yourself that but Thailand and your home country may have a different view.

[Gknrd]

You would be surprised at the people that have saved all their lives that don't know a thing about taxes. Capital gains taxes alone in Thailand will bring in billions in taxes from stupid westerners. The Thai's know how this will play out, the same as the 800K rule change for the rich western countries. That showed them that westerners will do anything for ..., period.

It's not rocket science. They will push it as far as they can. I would to if I were in charge. It's a windfall, free money.

[Mike Lister]

Here's the link to the Thai DTA's, my suggestion is that everyone download the one that is relevant to their country and begin to see what income is and is not protected under those agreements.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

Where's the enforcement? when have the Thai government said expats retirees have got to get a Tax number by law and submit accounts the answer is they haven't!  Pray tell me has Thailand started training thousands of new staff to understand all the tax rules in the dual tax treaty countries and tax thresholds ready for idiots queuing up voluntarily with boxes of statements and receipts and accounts to decipher in 2025 are they ready for 350000 thousand expats accounts to be submitted has any government department declared you will need to do anything  by law absolutely not!! if your stupid enough to volunteer your accounts and pay any tax here thats your own utter stupidity.

You must be living in a parallel universe...

 

I won't be likely to be immediately affected by this change of posture by Thai RD , watching from afar in safe mode, with popcorn. 

• I normally put a lottery ticket on an almost regular basis every month, in case my lucky number comes up! It's very easy and straight forward to by a ticket currently. If it were a very convoluted process, involving proof of Fx to buy the ticket and had to get it certified whilst the information involved in the transaction was quite obvious, In that case I might not put a ticket on, (or put  myself in the situation that it would become a rare an infrequent consideration to buy a ticket, unless someone wanted or needed me to).
• In a similar fashion if it is a straight forward process to file a tax return in future, to get a receipt for an inward remittance, that may potentially cause a threat of some possible liability or penalty, hanging around like a fart in an elevator, I perhaps would rather put the ticket on to stop my unlucky number coming up.    

Yes, I may be an idiot for putting a lottery on, but when I was there last summer in a period of 4 weeks, they twice yielded much more than a large grocery shop at central.......so not impossible odds (unlike the UK one has been **** for for quite a while now)

 

Good luck...

[redwood1]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

The obligation to understand and comply with the laws of the country you live in rests with the individual, nobody is going to come round to your house and tell you personally that you must do this or that, you are supposed to know, just as you are supposed to know in any country, Thailand is not unique in this respect.

 

The Revenue Department tax rules have existed for decades and have largely been unchanged, the fact that both the Revenue and many foreigners (not all) have chosen to ignore them or soft pedal, is not really relevant, those laws always existed. Last year, the Revenue said they were going to tighten compliance and the rules and the media has been letting everyone know, in no uncertain terms, that they are now required to comply with the tax rules and that they will no longer be ignored. If you or anyone else choses to continue to ignore those rules, that is your choice, just be aware that the excuse of, "I didn't know" has been used up!

 

I presume from what you have written that you have never filed a tax return because nobody queues up with boxes of statements etc. Tax filing is done on the basis of the honor system, you declare your income and calculate your liability, that is either accepted or not. If it is not, that's when the boxes of statements come in but frankly, that's going to be one in a hundred or more hence there's no need to recruit and train up lots of staff, especially since tax returns are filed online anyway.

 

I am tempted at this juncture to mention what happens to people who don't pay taxes that they owe in Thailand or the strong possibility that tax filings will be linked to other aspects of expat lives here but somebody, probably you, will tell me it's all scare mongering so I wont even mention those things. I can tell already that you are a hair shirt kind of guy who simple tells every one to bring it on because you're not going to be so stupid as to pay tax. That's fine, that's your choice and I wish you good luck with whatever decision you make.

 

 

I will eat crow the day the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, Cambodians etc ...Start lining up to pay taxes....Any tax.....

 

Its just not going to happen....

 

The only people who seem to have to slightest interest in this tax are a few posters on this forum......Even the post count in this thread is way way down from the early days..

Edited January 27 by redwood1

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, Gknrd said:

You would be surprised at the people that have saved all their lives that don't know a thing about taxes. Capital gains taxes alone in Thailand will bring in billions in taxes from stupid westerners. The Thai's know how this will play out, the same as the 800K rule change for the rich western countries. That showed them that westerners will do anything for pussy period.

It's not rocket science. They will push it as far as they can. I would to if I were in charge. It's a windfall, free money.

 

Depends how short term their outlook is, they have very minutely  damaged the brand again perhaps, they have a high confidence in the product,  which initially is great pitch, with apparently not much complexity to new customers. unless your have a prior experience comparator quite  some years in the past.

 

I worry about new customers, that have done large assessable in year transactions in preparation for coming over, arriving before mid-July and get taken to the cleaners the following January... 

 

[UKresonant]

8 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

I will eat crow the day the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, Cambodians etc ...Start lining up to pay taxes....Any tax.....

 

Its just not going to happen....

 

Are there many in those groups that seek a long term continuity of relationship with Thailand , like retired / married groupings, even if they are not in Thailand continuously?

 

If they don't have a long term inclinations in Thailand, you are most probably correct and their posture may also reflect their home country tax and general environment, as for many other nationality groups. However North America and Europe are highly regulated tax environments, which could account for some variance in attitude. There are also non Nationality specific attitudes, not recognising how Thailand has developed and is developing fast  in at least some, if not most  ministerial jurisdictions.  Not looking down and perhaps looking up slightly soon may become appropriate...A common interface struggles with their  general subject situation having been defined 45 years in the past, however in other control aspects it may be looked on from overseas with envy.

[Cult of the Sun]

4 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

So why would you volunteer your Thai bank info to your home country bank and visa versa? I don't consider myself living in Thailand, just an extended stay. 

Not sure why anyone would pay if we cannot buy land and aren't equal residents. 

Where is the upside?

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I don't consider myself living in Thailand, just an extended stay. 

 That's the way I always look it as well when I've been there (and I've never done an extension yet )

 

That's the only Visa options available, other than actual custom and practice.

Edited January 27 by UKresonant

[Celsius]

if by law you are not allowed to work on retirement visa then what law says you are supposed to pay tax?

 

5th world nonsense right there and some of you are suggesting getting a tax number 

 

don't forget to bend over during your 90 day report too. During your visa extension please do say "take my money" for all the rights and privileges they gave you in Thailand.

 

meanwhile Chinese, hk, taiwanese citizens are not paying tax on their multiple rentals in Thailand 

 

you people are pathetic and dumb beyond belief 

Edited January 27 by Celsius

[UKresonant]

2 minutes ago, Celsius said:

if by law you are not allowed to work on retirement visa then what law says you are supposed to pay tax?

 

5th world nonsense right there and some of you are suggesting getting a tax number 

 

don't forget to bend over during your 90 day report to. during your visa extension please do say take my money for all the rights and privileges I have in Thailand 

 

you people are pathetic

 

Why, thank you!

 

It is disappointing that people don't pay attention to there home country's attitude to the subject, as Thailand cribbing across some of their tax regime, just highlights how aggressive they are. They could copy more and it would be much worse!

Governmental organisations have a high motivation to grab more tax so it may be spent inefficiently (already spent  with poor value for money more like). No one has a feeling about the subject, until a mirror suddenly appears.

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

I will eat crow the day the Russians, the Indians, the Chinese, Cambodians etc ...Start lining up to pay taxes....Any tax.....

 

Its just not going to happen....

 

The only people who seem to have to slightest interest in this tax are a few posters on this forum......Even the post count in this thread is way way down from the early days..

I think we're at the limits of what we know, all the summarizing has been done and now we need more hard data input, that's why people have lost interest, the newness has worn off and there's nothing new to learn.

 

My 10 cents - it's so silly to think it's just not going to happen, we live in a joined up world and times have changed.

 

It's also silly to think this is either a major event or nothing, for most people it's very minor. A few pensioners will pay a little bit of tax, those escaping or evading tax will have to re-plan and go to their plan B or cough up. But even coughing up could be financially advantageous because of the lower rates of taxes, it's what the Italian and Scandinavians have proved. The problem for most is that those rates aren't zero and that takes some getting used to.

 

Those sitting on the fence playing wait and see.......it's all done, all we're waiting for is the forms and the mechanism. The announcement was made in October, there wont be another, there wont be some epiphany moment. The big impact is people realising they will have to start doing soon, the things they should have been doing all along, but weren't.

[Gknrd]

1 hour ago, Cult of the Sun said:

Not sure why anyone would pay if we cannot buy land and aren't equal residents. 

Where is the upside?

There is no upside! Not sure about the rest of the countries. But, for US retiree's it is ridiculous. I am thinking buying some land and building a small house in Mexico or Colombia. I own it there. Not only that but with residency I have local health care and all the perks. I lived in Thailand for years. But, not somewhere I would ever consider for retirement.  Haha, 80 and up doing a 90 day report, Yearly retirement visas. Nuts. Here I can have a resident visa and forget about it.

Edited January 27 by Gknrd

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, Cult of the Sun said:

Not sure why anyone would pay if we cannot buy land and aren't equal residents. 

Where is the upside?

 

4 hours ago, Celsius said:

if by law you are not allowed to work on retirement visa then what law says you are supposed to pay tax?

 

5th world nonsense right there and some of you are suggesting getting a tax number 

 

don't forget to bend over during your 90 day report too. During your visa extension please do say "take my money" for all the rights and privileges they gave you in Thailand.

 

meanwhile Chinese, hk, taiwanese citizens are not paying tax on their multiple rentals in Thailand 

 

you people are pathetic and dumb beyond belief 

 

What do I get in return for paying tax you ask....hmmm.

 

When you first decided to move to Thailand, you probably looked at the pluses and minuses, most people considered that not paying tax was a plus. What you didn't realise at the time was that not paying tax was just a temporary feature, it was never a case that you would never have to pay tax here and that really is the problem, you didn't realise that. What's happening now is that realization is starting to sink in and people are responding differently. Many are still in denial, some are angry, others are making plans to leave whilst the sensible ones are looking at their income, reading their DTA and trying to understand the impact. Others are saying it will all go away and hoping the courts over rule the change, that's clutching at straws, frankly! For most there is no significant impact, for me there's none, for others it's minor. For those who will be seriously impacted, and there will be some, what can be said, it's plan B time!

 

But TBH it's still a plus because the comparative rates of tax here are much lower than in the West, 5% and 10% is far far better than 20% and up and the Italians and Scandinavians have already told us that.

 

 

Edited January 27 by Mike Lister
reworded

[UKresonant]

On 1/24/2024 at 3:53 PM, CrossBones said:

Here is another scenario

 

I live in Thailand. I am tax resident

 

I transfer money from my offshore account to someone else in Thailand, who is also a Thai tax resident.

 

According to the above comment I have to pay tax on any money i sent into Thailand.

 

And the other person I sent money to - they also received (my) money form overseas

 

Should we both, then, pay tax on the (same) amount?

 

Doesnt make any sense.

 

 

Here is an extract from the UK remittance pages, I've not yet found the equivalent Thai RD page, but suspect it may be somewhat similar, in respect to you question.....

"...Most remittances to the UK will be under the general rules but there are additional rules under which your foreign income and gains may be remitted to the UK. For example, you gift some of your foreign income or gains or something deriving from them to a person other than a relevant person - a gift recipient. It’s still possible for there to be a remittance of your foreign income or gains if the gift is used in such a way that it benefits a relevant person.

Your money or property does not have to be physically imported from overseas for a remittance to occur. For example, it could be money you receive in the UK from another UK resident, in return for money or assets representing your foreign income and gains transferred to them abroad.

1.3 Relevant person
A relevant person is:

the individual themselves, that’s, the person to whom the foreign income and gains belong
the individual’s spouse or civil partner, or people living together as if they’re spouses or civil partners
the individual’s children or grandchildren under 18 years of age (this includes children or grandchildren of their spouse or civil partners).....

[EVENKEEL]

This is like a social experiment. You have an anonymous forum where one person is made to be in charge and he says "hey guys, we need to get a TIN so we can start reporting our money" you do what you want but this is what the law has been saying forever.

 

So, there's already been guys trying to register or whatever based on an anonymous person on a forum. I'm not saying that what Mr Lister is saying is false or it's true. I don't know. I simply find it fascinating that one unknown person has the power to create all this discussion.

[UKresonant]

The Thai Tax system is

still usefully allowing remittance basis. So to some extent the amount being taxed, and what you remit can be controlled. 

 

The amount Thai tax is a bit variable compared with the UK tax, whether it is more more less, with various factors especially if above or below 65 years of age. It seems always less than the UK Income Tax once over circa 2 million Baht p.a. 

 

Looking if it were someone going to the UK , you only get 7 years of remittance basis , then it becomes unworkabley expensive for mortals.

 

The Gov opposition party (due to this years election) are are actually wanting  the remittance basis to be cancelled. With no apparent thought on how repulsive and inward looking, that will make the UK appear for companies may wish to go  with inward investment, and find essential personel, may not wish to go. 

 

This years Thai tax move will have a component of reduced spend and small VAT offset probably, for folk with mostly foreign income.  Details and a practicle mechanism yet to be seen of course....

 

Edited January 28 by UKresonant

[Mike Lister]

47 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

This is like a social experiment. You have an anonymous forum where one person is made to be in charge and he says "hey guys, we need to get a TIN so we can start reporting our money" you do what you want but this is what the law has been saying forever.

 

So, there's already been guys trying to register or whatever based on an anonymous person on a forum. I'm not saying that what Mr Lister is saying is false or it's true. I don't know. I simply find it fascinating that one unknown person has the power to create all this discussion.

The discussion about Thai tax started to attract readers and posters from far and wide, when the 200 page thread was in full swing, the audience at that time was huge and of course we know such things because we're a commercial site and we track them.

 

What happened subsequently is the subject has become more focussed and now excludes all the things on the periphery such as CRS and other governmental legislation and actions. Mostly the debate has eliminated all the whining and soap boxing by eggspurts. Now the debate is focussed and in a different phase, now people want to understand the practical application of what was previously theoretical and mostly airy fairy. That snowball started rolling down the hill months ago, as it got larger and larger, two weeks ago I simply changed its direction of travel slightly.......you were just late to the party, some people are slow to pick up on such things. 

 

The problem previously was that few people could understand the debate, let alone the issues, many posters were trying different tactics to get information, including contacting me directly. You accused me at the time, as I recall, of "pretending I was trying to save the world" and told me to "stop posting"....which I happily did. Now look where we are, all thanks to you!!!  So if anyone is responsible for initiating these discussions, you may not realise it but you are just as responsible as anyone involved, if not more so. Think about it.

[Mike Lister]

It would be fascinating to present posters with a list of Thai laws and ask them which ones they thought were real, which must be obeyed and which ones were, well, you know, up to you kind of laws.

 

Obviously, up until a few weeks ago, sending in a tax return and paying tax would have been in the optional column. Murder would probably be a must follow rule (for most) whilst crash helmets, stopping at red lights, gambling, prostitution, drunk driving etc would all be, up to you items, I imagine. The problem is that when some of these "optional" laws start to be enforced, posters blame it on corruption by the BiB or overreach by the global elite who want to track everyone and tax them. You want a social experiment, that would be a great one. 

 

 

[garygooner]

13 hours ago, redwood1 said:

I will eat crow

What's wrong with crow? 

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

 

 

It's readers and posters that determine their own interests, not me. But honestly, you guys kept this thread alive for four months, I've only been managing the topic for two weeks!!!