Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Teavee]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Are university students taxed?

Could I remit say 50k a month to my child tax free?

 

Will Thai banks investigate every Thai person that gets cross border remittance regularly?

 

 

You can "Gift" your child up to 20Million Baht per year & I don't think anybody would argue with you "Gifting" them 50K per month for living expenses... 

 

From @Yumthaiearlier post...  https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/income-determination

 

Maintenance income derived under a moral obligation or gifts made in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with established custom from persons who are not ascendants, descendants, or spouse, in the amount not exceeding THB 10 million throughout a tax year.

 

From HSBC... 

https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/thailand/tax-in-thailand/#:~:text=Inheritance and gift taxes&text=In general%2C gifts are taxed,year) are exempt from tax.

"In general, gifts are taxed at a flat rate of 5%. However, gifts received from a legitimate parent, child or spouse (up to THB 20 million per year) or in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with custom and tradition (up to THB 10 million per year) are exempt from tax".

 

[Shoeless Joe]

12 hours ago, jayboy said:

1 million baht per month in pensions.That's amazing - you are very fortunate. That"s about £ 22,000 pm or £ 264000 pa, say £ 343,000 gross before UK tax.

Thank you. My sincere apologies. I should have said my pensions amount to 1 million baht per year, paid monthly at circa 90,000 baht per month.

[Shoeless Joe]

12 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Are you confusing a State Pension with a Government Pension ?

 

My Government Pension increases by CPI every year, regardless of where I am in the World.

Yes, my apologies. I do mean the state pension (what used to be the Old Age Pension). Thanks.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Shoeless Joe said:

Thank you. My sincere apologies. I should have said my pensions amount to 1 million baht per year, paid monthly at circa 90,000 baht per month.

Which if you are over 65, 500k of which will be taxable, some at the 10% rate.

[The Cyclist]

11 hours ago, Yumthai said:

They will do what? Tax the GF on inward remittance from someone overseas?

No because it's a gift, described as it, falling under gift law. Period.

 

Yumthai, what is the whole purpose of the changes that will take place from the 01 Jan 2024 ?

 

I suppose it never occurred to you that this ' Gift tax ' will stay in place for ' Gifts ' that are gifted within Thailands borders.
 

To allow ' Gifts ' of up to 20 million Baht, remitted from overseas to remain tax free is defeating the purpose of the changes coming into force from the 01 Jan 2024.

 

Might as well not bother with the changes, as most peoples overseas  income will now be converted to ' Gifts ' to continue with Tax avoidance.

[Shoeless Joe]

13 hours ago, Shoeless Joe said:

For me, I've transferred around 1 million baht in pensions from my bank every month for about 12 years and live quite comfortably.

For clarity: I transfer circa 90,000 baht each month. approximately 1 million baht per year. Thank you for pointing it out.
Joe

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

Yumthai, what is the whole purpose of the changes that will take place from the 01 Jan 2024 ?

 

I suppose it never occurred to you that this ' Gift tax ' will stay in place for ' Gifts ' that are gifted within Thailands borders.
 

To allow ' Gifts ' of up to 20 million Baht, remitted from overseas to remain tax free is defeating the purpose of the changes coming into force from the 01 Jan 2024.

 

You are then insinuating that they will amend the gift law and also the inheritance law because it will face the same issue on foreign remittance.

I do not think so.

 

As you may know, old Thai people get quasi non-existent pension and are relying on family support.

According to you, from 01/01/2024 they will have to declare and pay tax on all remittances received from their relatives working/living abroad.

Seriously?

 

Taxing recklessly will have greater negative consequences on the Thai whole economy than good ones.

 

[The Cyclist]

11 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

 

As you may know, old Thai people get quasi non-existent pension and are relying on family support.

According to you, from 01/01/2024 they will have to declare and pay tax on all remittances received from their relatives working/living abroad.

Seriously?

 

Taxing recklessly will have greater negative consequences on the Thai whole economy than good ones.

 

 

None of that is in doubt.

 

Neither is the reason for this rule change starting on 01 Jan 2024 in doubt.

 

But when you want to play by the big boys rules ( OECD ) then you abide by the big boys rules, and there is no way the OECD oversight team will be allowing tax free ' Gifts ' of up to 20 million baht a year from untaxed income remitted from abroad.

 

Every single contributor to this thread could simply ' Gift ' their income / pensions / capital gains / any other to their other half / next door neighbour / special friend and this thread does not exist, tax lawyers / accountants are redundant etc, etc.

 

Neither would there be a need for the RD to be employing additional staff up and down the Country.

 

22 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You are then insinuating 

 

I'm not insinuating anything, I am giving you a cold hard reality.

 

[Yumthai]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I'm not insinuating anything, I am giving you a cold hard reality.

 

At this point of time, you are speculating on future law amendments and enforcements. You have the right to do so.

We can agree that our realities may differ.

 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

At this point of time, you are speculating on future law amendments and enforcements. You have the right to do so.

 

 

 

The whole thread, consisting of 161 pages is mostly speculation.

 

Having said that. Did they amend any Laws to make the changes that are starting on the 01 Jan 2024 ?
 

Pretty sure they simply changed the meaning and never ammended anything.

 

9 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

We can agree that our realities may differ.

 

Our realities mean jack ****. The OECD on the other hand is a different kettle of fish.

 

Whether we like it or not. These changes are being introduced to close loopholes that have allowed people to ( legally ) avoid paying tax.

 

Up to 20 million baht tax free  ' Gifts '  of untaxed income is the epitome of tax avoidance.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Oh, yawn. How are they going to determine what amount of your remittance to Thailand is income or post-taxation savings? They can't, and they won't, as they're not brain dead about all the negatives being addressed on this thread. Most importantly, foreign direct investment (FDI) would evaporate if the they taxed all remittances -- and they're not about to go there.

 

Yes, there's income out there to be gained, if Thailand did away with the remittance rule (and the Thai fat cats didn't prevent that tax avoidance scheme from happening). So, say they did -- now worldwide income, subject to DTA exemptions or primary taxation authority rules, would dictate how taxation goes forth in Thailand. In my situation (US), I still would not need to declare my Air Force pension and Social Security pay as assessable income in Thailand (as US has "exclusive" taxation rights on those). But my IRA annual payout (due to RMD) would, under the DTA, be taxable primarily by Thailand, with the US as secondary taxation authority -- meaning, Thailand keeps all the taxes; the US keeps only the taxes, if any, not negated by the tax credit from Thailand. For me? Since Thai taxes would be less than US taxes on this IRA payout, my total tax payout from both countries would be no different than under the old rules, where I didn't need to file with Thailand. And, now, in all fairness -- Thailand finally gets those taxes dictated by the US-Thai DTA -- which had been precluded due to the 'remitted in a a later year' Thai law. Fine by me.

 

Anyway, for Yanks, nothing's going to change with your worldwide tax bill -- only that more of your taxes may go to Thailand, where before they went to the US. Thus, no need to plan for a 185 day vacation from Thailand (186 in leap year) to avoid taxes.

 

Now, for those of you screaming about the unfairness of having Thailand tax some of your income, but who now have none of your income being taxed, including in your home country -- welcome to the new OECD effort for "fiscal fairness." And, yes, CRS and FATCA reporting will be a "gotcha" for you, should Thailand go to taxing income, and not remittances. And Thailand really has no choice, as trying to parse remittances for taxation purposes is a non-starter.

 

But, maybe the Thai fat cats will win out, and this new tax proposal will self-destruct. Thailand will survive -- just jump of VAT a couple of points.

 

If you're a Yank, I wouldn't waste too much time reading this thread, as all the doom and gloom doesn't affect you.

I am so happy that you are happy - thanks for sharing.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

21 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, sure, it's anecdotal. But the combination of all anecdotal evidence, surveys, personal knowledge, people I know, myself, all point towards the average being much much closer to 50k per month than 85k a month or 1 million a year. The likes of poster Ben Xioner are in the top couple of percent.

I dont agree there Mike - it is probably actually over 1 million a year (on average). This was calculated some years ago in a media story about the 'value' of Expats to Thailand - maybe ThaiVisa.com too.  The average is calculated not just on the normal annual spend on rent and extertainment etc etc., it also includes those big purchases that most Expats make now and then - cars, TVs, furniture, property, holidays, etc etc.  I think like many Expats, most Thais see only the large number of Expats in places like Pattaya - when there are a lot more spread out around the country.

 

There was a story recently in the media about a few Expats who has been ripped off in real estate deals on Phuket - they hade spent Billions of Baht.  Sure there are a lot of cheap charlies living off only their pensions in places like Pattaya and only spending 50-60K per month on average, but there are a lot more Expats across the whole country spending a lot more money than that. They are in every gated community we have ever lived in or visited - and some of them bought their property. There also are a lot in the smaller towns, villages and some on farms.  The problem is that the Thai Govt does not count them - each Province keeps their details and does not report them any central authority. If the Thai Govt actually counted them and calculated how much money theu spend in Thailand every year, things would change.  I recall a Thai bloke who involved in the local Thai Immigration in a small Province office talking about how they counted them once - the big Boss said to stop. Thais in authority dont want to know how many Expats there really are - they are worried that we are actually important and they dont like that.  

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I dont agree there Mike - it is probably actually over 1 million a year (on average). This was calculated some years ago in a media story about the 'value' of Expats to Thailand - maybe ThaiVisa.com too.  The average is calculated not just on the normal annual spend on rent and extertainment etc etc., it also includes those big purchases that most Expats make now and then - cars, TVs, furniture, property, holidays, etc etc.  I think like many Expats, most Thais see only the large number of Expats in places like Pattaya - when there are a lot more spread out around the country.

 

There was a story recently in the media about a few Expats who has been ripped off in real estate deals on Phuket - they hade spent Billions of Baht.  Sure there are a lot of cheap charlies living off only their pensions in places like Pattaya and only spending 50-60K per month on average, but there are a lot more Expats across the whole country spending a lot more money than that. They are in every gated community we have ever lived in or visited - and some of them bought their property. There also are a lot in the smaller towns, villages and some on farms.  The problem is that the Thai Govt does not count them - each Province keeps their details and does not report them any central authority. If the Thai Govt actually counted them and calculated how much money theu spend in Thailand every year, things would change.  I recall a Thai bloke who involved in the local Thai Immigration in a small Province office talking about how they counted them once - the big Boss said to stop. Thais in authority dont want to know how many Expats there really are - they are worried that we are actually important and they dont like that.  

So let's be extreme and almost double the number, that's still only 3% of GDP, it's still small change in the bigger picture of things. 3% of GDP and no more whinging poms and bleating yanks, that's a bl oody good deal I reckon.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Mike Lister

[CartagenaWarlock]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:49 PM, lordgrinz said:

I pay US taxes every year, they do not look the other way, ever! So, you'll have to elaborate on your simplistic response.

You pay Thai taxes first and then deduct your payment from your US tax obligation. If you claim to pay taxes in the US, it should not be a problem. But if you don't pay any taxes in the US, then it's a problem. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So let's be extreme and almost double the number, that's still only 3% of GDP, it's still small change in the bigger picture of things. 3% of GDP and no more whinging poms and bleating yanks, that's a bl oody good deal I reckon.

7.14 million tourists - not worth their efforts ? Get real mate - TAT is being paid a lot of money to 'generate' millions of tourists, and here we are right in front of them. 

But I do agree about the whinging POMs and liberal woke Yanks - almost as bad as soi dogs at night. 

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

7.14 million tourists - not worth their efforts ? Get real mate - TAT is being paid a lot of money to 'generate' millions of tourists, and here we are right in front of them. 

But I do agree about the whinging POMs and liberal woke Yanks - almost as bad as soi dogs at night. 

That equalls about 3 weeks worth of exports, it's nothing.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That equalls about 3 weeks worth of exports, it's nothing.

So all the work and focus and money being spent by Thailand to attract 20 million tourists to Thailand is 'worth' only 10 weeks of exports?

Your understanding of macro and micro economics and where GDP fits into things is very lacking.

Eg.  The money that tourists (and Expats) bring into Thailand is 'new' money - it is not 'offset' against imports and there is no large 'costs of production' (although TAT is IMO mostly wasted money). 

[The Cyclist]

28 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

7.14 million tourists - not worth their efforts ? Get real mate - TAT is being paid a lot of money to 'generate' millions of tourists, and here we are right in front of them. 

 

What are you talking about ?
 

It doesn't matter if its 7.14 million tourists or 35 million tourists, this doesn't affect tourists.

[Aldo123]

If they go beyond taxing remittances, and ramp it up to tax assessments on global income, then many middle-income retirees and long-stay (including many of those married to Thais) will probably leave. But maybe that's what the country's rulers want? To get rid of the farang kee nok? However, this sort of tax grab on 'foreign residents' won't pull in much money, except for a little from those who are anchored here (those who spent all their savings on a house/condo, or can't abandon their Thai family). The rich foreigners who 'live' here don't pay tax - anywhere (aside from US Citizens). They typically have at least three residential properties to ensure they are never 6 months in any single jurisdiction. So they will enjoy the  4-5 month Thai 'winter' in their condo in Phuket, then spend March - June in the Algarve, and finally, July through October relaxing through summer in their condo in the United States or Canada. Or, if they want to stay in Thailand longer, they will get a "Wealthy Pensioner" visa that - for now, at least - purports to exclude income tax as one of its perks.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

So all the work and focus and money being spent by Thailand to attract 20 million tourists to Thailand is 'worth' only 10 weeks of exports?

Your understanding of macro and micro economics and where GDP fits into things is very lacking.

Eg.  The money that tourists (and Expats) bring into Thailand is 'new' money - it is not 'offset' against imports and there is no large 'costs of production' (although TAT is IMO mostly wasted money). 

Whatever are you waffling on about, for goodness sake. I'm talking comparables, comparisons, and you still haven't answered my earlier question, all you've done is give us more blah blah..

[newnative]

44 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I dont agree there Mike - it is probably actually over 1 million a year (on average). This was calculated some years ago in a media story about the 'value' of Expats to Thailand - maybe ThaiVisa.com too.  The average is calculated not just on the normal annual spend on rent and extertainment etc etc., it also includes those big purchases that most Expats make now and then - cars, TVs, furniture, property, holidays, etc etc.  I think like many Expats, most Thais see only the large number of Expats in places like Pattaya - when there are a lot more spread out around the country.

 

There was a story recently in the media about a few Expats who has been ripped off in real estate deals on Phuket - they hade spent Billions of Baht.  Sure there are a lot of cheap charlies living off only their pensions in places like Pattaya and only spending 50-60K per month on average, but there are a lot more Expats across the whole country spending a lot more money than that. They are in every gated community we have ever lived in or visited - and some of them bought their property. There also are a lot in the smaller towns, villages and some on farms.  The problem is that the Thai Govt does not count them - each Province keeps their details and does not report them any central authority. If the Thai Govt actually counted them and calculated how much money theu spend in Thailand every year, things would change.  I recall a Thai bloke who involved in the local Thai Immigration in a small Province office talking about how they counted them once - the big Boss said to stop. Thais in authority dont want to know how many Expats there really are - they are worried that we are actually important and they dont like that.  

      Totally agree.  I would also add that there are a lot of well-off expats in Pattaya, as well, despite anecdotal evidence some posters seem to rely on by reading Asean Now regularly.  Expanding a bit on my earlier post, I think the lower income expats in Pattaya tend to make the most noise on AN, perhaps leaving the false impression that those types are the only expats in Pattaya--or the vast majority. 

     They post about this or that bar or go-go; the state of bar girls these days (apparently fatter); the price of this or that going up at the grocery store and how expensive it now is to live here; threatening to leave every other month due to this or that now impacting their life here; boasting about the bargains they secured on condo rentals, while often slapping down posters who seemingly did worse; complainng about this or that vs. their home country; debating the calibre of expats living at Nirun or Flybird;  describing in detail the horrors of dual pricing they have experenced; cautioning repeatedly at the drop of a hat about all the awful pitfalls of buying a property here-even though the poster has usually not asked for their opinion on buying vs. renting; posting ad infinitum about always having a suitcase packed and standing by the front door.  And so on and so on--just scratching the surface.  Add to that, the large cadre of posters endlessly commenting, usually incorrectly, on absolutely everything relating to Pattaya, while having either never lived here at all or only briefly visted, often years ago--I call them The Can't Quit Pattaya Fan Club.  

     Meanwhile, there are large numbers of expats who are financially comfortable living in Pattaya, likely posting less on rather trivial matters--but most of them will not be found living in the touristy areas which garner many of the posts.  They're in Jomtien or Cosy Beach.  Pratumnak or Wong Amat.  Other points south and north, and many are living on the Darkside--which has some very nice estate projects, with more being built every day.  

     Despite all the negative posts on AN regarding real estate, every expat my partner and I knows in Pattata owns the place they live in, including several who own more than 1 property.  If you only read AN, anecdotal evidence would suggest that only a very tiny fraction of expats, variously classified on AN as fools, suckers, dimwits, stupid, dumb, insane, etc., would ever even entertain the terrible idea of buying property in Thailand.  Which doesn't square with the facts but when has that ever stopped anyone in posting false information.   Fun fact, usually overlooked:  Many Pattaya expats have the means to pay cash for the properties they buy and don't use mortgages. 

    An interesting trend I have noticed is the higher price points of some of the new Pattaya projects either recently completed or under construction--some new projects are definitely going upmarket, although there have always been a number of them over the years.  Major developers are not stupid.  Before a project is launched, they study the market carefully.  Is there a market for homes starting at 15MB on the Darkside?  How about a home for 60MB?  If I bulld it, will I find a buyer?  Down the road from my former house by Lake Mabprachan, a new house project has started.  About a half-dozen homes, starting around 25 or 30MB.

    The trend is equally evident in condos.  Several of the newest projects are, indeed, pricey.  Arom, in Wong Amat, under construction, has 2 bedrooms, running about 81 sqm, for about 15MB.  Arom, by the way, launched their new project, complete with a fancy sales office, during the very darkest days of covid.  They have since started a new project in Jomtien, also pricey. 

     Recently saw 46.5 sqm condos at Copacabana listed on Hipflat for 9MB.  I guess the one I saw listed on FB Marketplace for 7.5MB was an absolute bargain.  As my Dad used to say, too rich for my blood.  But, Pattaya has a wide variety of well-heeled residents these days, with enough of them to support a number of luxury car dealers--and, pricier property projects.  It's not the small, sleepy place it was years ago--although too many posters still seem to think of it that way.   A deluded AN poster recently stated that prostitution contributed 100% of Pattaya's income.  100%!  He and the equally deluded poster who claimed Pattaya is responsible for 90% of the crime in Thailand should do lunch.

      

[ukrules]

7 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I suppose it never occurred to you that this ' Gift tax ' will stay in place for ' Gifts ' that are gifted within Thailands borders.

 

Of course it is - that's how it works all over the world.

 

It's refering to money inside Thailand that's already been taxed.

 

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, Yumthai said:

According to you, from 01/01/2024 they will have to declare and pay tax on all remittances received from their relatives working/living abroad.

Seriously?

 

Yes, what do you think all the fuss is about?

[The Cyclist]

Just now, ukrules said:

 

Of course it is - that's how it works all over the world.

 

It's refering to money inside Thailand that's already been taxed.

 

 

Yes, I know that, you apparently know that but @Yumthai does not appear to know that.

[Yumthai]

6 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Of course it is - that's how it works all over the world.

 

It's refering to money inside Thailand that's already been taxed.

Please provide detailed source of your statement

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Whatever are you waffling on about, for goodness sake. I'm talking comparables, comparisons, and you still haven't answered my earlier question, all you've done is give us more blah blah..

You are an argumentative waste of my time - who claims to be speaking for everyone else - waste of time (again).

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

So all the work and focus and money being spent by Thailand to attract 20 million tourists to Thailand is 'worth' only 10 weeks of exports?

Your understanding of macro and micro economics and where GDP fits into things is very lacking.

Eg.  The money that tourists (and Expats) bring into Thailand is 'new' money - it is not 'offset' against imports and there is no large 'costs of production' (although TAT is IMO mostly wasted money). 

Bottom line, International Tourism is worth 12% of GDP, Customs exports is worth 59% of GDP

 

https://wits.worldbank.org/CountrySnapshot/en/THA/textview#:~:text=Thailand Service Trade data from WDI 2021&text=Thailand%2C Imports of goods and,percentage of GDP is 58.64 %.

[jerrymahoney]

This is from the PriceWaterhouse-Coopers 2022-23 Thailand tax Booklet. Note under 'maintenance income' as gift it makes no provision for gifts originating ex-Thailand. Page4.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-2022-23-booklet.pdf

[beammeup]

As I said 100 pages ago, this gift thing needs more clarity. As does credit cards.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

If they go beyond taxing remittances, and ramp it up to tax assessments on global income, then many middle-income retirees and long-stay (including many of those married to Thais) will probably leave. But maybe that's what the country's rulers want? To get rid of the farang kee nok? However, this sort of tax grab on 'foreign residents' won't pull in much money, except for a little from those who are anchored here (those who spent all their savings on a house/condo, or can't abandon their Thai family). The rich foreigners who 'live' here don't pay tax - anywhere (aside from US Citizens). They typically have at least three residential properties to ensure they are never 6 months in any single jurisdiction. So they will enjoy the  4-5 month Thai 'winter' in their condo in Phuket, then spend March - June in the Algarve, and finally, July through October relaxing through summer in their condo in the United States or Canada. Or, if they want to stay in Thailand longer, they will get a "Wealthy Pensioner" visa that - for now, at least - purports to exclude income tax as one of its perks.

Exactly what the wife and I will be doing if they hit me with income taxes on the money I get as a pension plus the savings I have accumulated through working for 40 years (and left after an Aust divorce). I do not quite have the money to have 3+ properties in different locations (wish I did though). But with the cost of living being so cheap in neighbouring countries who do not tax incoming money from Expats, we might just buy a cheap place here (in wife's name) and make sure we stay no more than 179 days a year.  If/when things change if/when they realise the net effect of this move (for Expats) will be a loss of money, then we could always come back for longer.  Planning is all up in the air right now though - we must wait and see how things pan out - I sure hopep they pull this back and leave our money alone. 2024 will clearly be a very pivotal year for our lives in Thailand.