Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

One obvious example will be retirement visa holders staying in Thailand less than 180 days in order to be exempt from the tax.

A few probably will but the vast majority who are settled here, have homes and families here, will certainly not, unless they are at the very high end of the income scale. I've been here for 22 years and have a family and home here, there's no way I would consider leaving for what is almost certainly a miniscule impact as a result of the tax rule changes. I have a home in the UK I could go to but the airfare and loss of rental alone would far exceed an tax impact.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

For people who are currently tax residents and who currently pay Thai income tax, the new scheme will have little impact.

 

For the rest of us, the new scheme will be a big problem.

I don't see why, I think much of this is fear of the unknown rather than any serious impact, unless you're seriously high earners..

[The Cyclist]

43 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Will the tax forms and instructions be in English?

 

If you had bothered to actually look at the forms, you will see that they are in both Thai and English.

 

I deduce that should do a little more research, and educate yourself.

 

48 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The danger is at visa renewal time, the government demands a full accounting of all my income anywhere in the world, and no visa renewal if I don't provide it.

 

Why are you inventing stuff ?
 

49 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Right now, my plan is to remain in Thailand less than 180 days next year, starting January 4.

 

Crack on.

[Mike Teavee]

9 hours ago, Eudaimonia said:

I'm thinking about buying a condo in early 2024. Owning instead of renting would lessen the need to bring in money later. The purchase window seems to be closing now: the requirement to bring in all funds from abroad combined with progressive taxation of those funds means that the Thai real estate market is dead to me from 2025 onwards.

I plan on buying a condo in 2026 when I hit 60 & can take the Tax Free lump sum from my private pensions... Of course I also plan on taking a 6 month break from Thailand that year so the "Income" will be earned & remitted in a year I'm non-Tax resident. 

 

[Danderman123]

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

A few probably will but the vast majority who are settled here, have homes and families here, will certainly not, unless they are at the very high end of the income scale. I've been here for 22 years and have a family and home here, there's no way I would consider leaving for what is almost certainly a miniscule impact as a result of the tax rule changes. I have a home in the UK I could go to but the airfare and loss of rental alone would far exceed an tax impact.

You are already paying taxes in Thailand, so the new scheme will have little impact on you.

 

And I am not talking about leaving Thailand, merely taking longer holidays. Avoidance of the new tax is like having a paid holiday.

[Danderman123]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If you had bothered to actually look at the forms, you will see that they are in both Thai and English.

 

I deduce that should do a little more research, and educate yourself.

 

 

Why are you inventing stuff ?
 

 

Crack on.

How is Thailand going to enforce the new tax scheme if not via the visa renewal process? 

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

How is Thailand going to enforce the new tax scheme if not via the visa renewal process? 

Absolutely, exit permits are just a matter of time, either that or RD sign off at visa extension time. The US used to do this for many years that I lived there, leaving the country became complicated at one point.

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Absolutely, exit permits are just a matter of time, either that or RD sign off at visa extension time. The US used to do this for many years that I lived there, leaving the country became complicated at one point.

So, if I remain in Thailand less than 180 days, when my visa is renewed, Immigration won't impose the new tax scheme on me, ie they won't alert RD of any tax liability for me.

 

Sounds like a plan.

 

Meanwhile, just in case, I will transmit money from my home country to Thailand before January 1, and zero in 2024, just in case RD decides to tax those cash flows directly for all foreigners, tax resident or not.

 

 

[Ben Zioner]

52 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't see why, I think much of this is fear of the unknown rather than any serious impact, unless you're seriously high earners..

Don't thinks that's true. The 25% bracket starts at 1 Million and the 30% bracket ranges from 2 to 5 Million. These aren't "seriously high" incomes. The brackets are clearly designed to hit the middle income earners.

[Yumthai]

15 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Don't thinks that's true. The 25% bracket starts at 1 Million and the 30% bracket ranges from 2 to 5 Million. These aren't "seriously high" incomes. The brackets are clearly designed to hit the middle income earners.

1M THB a year is not middle income as per Thai standard, it's rather in the lower range of the high income earners.

[Mike Teavee]

29 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

So, if I remain in Thailand less than 180 days, when my visa is renewed, Immigration won't impose the new tax scheme on me, ie they won't alert RD of any tax liability for me.

 

Sounds like a plan.

 

Meanwhile, just in case, I will transmit money from my home country to Thailand before January 1, and zero in 2024, just in case RD decides to tax those cash flows directly for all foreigners, tax resident or not.

 

 

You're ok remitting at least 210K (60K personal allowance & then the 1st 150K is taxed at 0%) after that it depends on your personal circumstances... 

1. Have Kids in Thailand, 30K per child can be offset against Tax
2. Married & Wife doesn't file a Tax return, you can claim her 60K personal allowance
3. Over 65, extra 190K allowance + up to 100K allowance against your pension 
4. Buy Health Insurance in Thailand? 1st 25K can be offset against Tax. 
5. Buy Life Insurance, 1st 100K can be offset against Tax. 

Am sure there are more but as a single guy my plan is to bring in 235K for me (60K PA + 25K for Health Insurance + 150K taxed at 0%) & 210K for the GF (Wired straight to her account from UK).

 

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

1M THB a year is not middle income as per Thai standard, it's rather in the lower range of the high income earners.

This discussion is not about income of Thai citizens, but rather, foreign tax residents, many of whom earn 1M Thai baht as a minimum.

 

A 25% tax levy would not be fun for those people.

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

You're ok remitting at least 210K (60K personal allowance & then the 1st 150K is taxed at 0%) after that it depends on your personal circumstances... 

1. Have Kids in Thailand, 30K per child can be offset against Tax
2. Married & Wife doesn't file a Tax return, you can claim her 60K personal allowance
3. Over 65, extra 190K allowance + up to 100K allowance against your pension 
4. Buy Health Insurance in Thailand? 1st 25K can be offset against Tax. 
5. Buy Life Insurance, 1st 100K can be offset against Tax. 

Am sure there are more but as a single guy my plan is to bring in 235K for me (60K PA + 25K for Health Insurance + 150K taxed at 0%) & 210K for the GF (Wired straight to her account from UK).

 

My point is that doing the work to calculate your Thai tax liability is difficult and laborious. I came to Thailand to stop working, not learn a new tax system.

 

But I can avoid all that work by taking longer holidays abroad.

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

You're ok remitting at least 210K (60K personal allowance & then the 1st 150K is taxed at 0%) after that it depends on your personal circumstances... 

1. Have Kids in Thailand, 30K per child can be offset against Tax
2. Married & Wife doesn't file a Tax return, you can claim her 60K personal allowance
3. Over 65, extra 190K allowance + up to 100K allowance against your pension 
4. Buy Health Insurance in Thailand? 1st 25K can be offset against Tax. 
5. Buy Life Insurance, 1st 100K can be offset against Tax. 

Am sure there are more but as a single guy my plan is to bring in 235K for me (60K PA + 25K for Health Insurance + 150K taxed at 0%) & 210K for the GF (Wired straight to her account from UK).

 

You are talking about funds transferred from abroad into Thailand, but the new tax scheme focuses on all income earned by tax residents *anywhere in the world*, not just transfers into Thailand.

[Mike Teavee]

7 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

You are talking about funds transferred from abroad into Thailand, but the new tax scheme focuses on all income earned by tax residents *anywhere in the world*, not just transfers into Thailand.

No it doesn't... There is talk that they want to look at taxing Global Income but the current changes to the rules are focused on tax based on income remitted to Thailand.  

[Danderman123]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

No it doesn't... There is talk that they want to look at taxing Global Income but the current changes to the rules are focused on tax based on income remitted to Thailand.  

I guess the tax scheme has evolved. If so, everyone will jam through their transfers before January 1 (as I am doing).

 

If I need to add more funds into Thailand, I will carry $9,999 with me every time I come from my home country. 

 

Hmmmm... if I deposit that cash into my Bangkok Bank savings account, does that count as an international transfer subject to taxation?

Edited December 10, 2023 by Danderman123

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

My point is that doing the work to calculate your Thai tax liability is difficult and laborious. I came to Thailand to stop working, not learn a new tax system.

 

But I can avoid all that work by taking longer holidays abroad.

In which case it doesn't matter how much money you remit into Thailand. 

 

But even if you were Tax Resident, there is no need to file a return unless you have taxable income & all this talk of "I'll need something from RD to do my extension" is nonsense, there is no way that the RD can cope with an additional 300,000 Expat Tax Returns never mind the 100,000s of Thais that will get caught up in it. 

 

Granted they could re-instate the Tax Clearance certificate that you used to have to get if you'd stayed here longer than 6 months (IIRC Philippines still has something similar) but in that case you would need to get one whether you remitted any money to Thailand or not.   

 

 

[Mike Lister]

45 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Don't thinks that's true. The 25% bracket starts at 1 Million and the 30% bracket ranges from 2 to 5 Million. These aren't "seriously high" incomes. The brackets are clearly designed to hit the middle income earners.

The average farang retiree lives here on much less than 1 mill, surveys in this forum over the years confirm that.

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

I guess the tax scheme has evolved. If so, everyone will jam through their transfers before January 1 (as I am doing).

 

If I need to add more funds into Thailand, I will carry $9,999 with me every time I come from my home country. 

My plan exactly... 

1. 235K THB for me
2. 210K THB for her
3. £8,000 (approx. 350K) in my pocket when I come back from the UK 
4. £6,000 (approx.260K) I give to my mate in the UK for him to invest there
5. £3,000 (approx. 130K) that I pay for my mate's flight on our annual trip back to the UK.

Should give me approx. 100K per month, the rest I'll just be taking out of ATMs when I'm overseas. 

 

I do love the fact that if this Tax does go ahead, every time I spend money on holiday outside of Thailand the Revenue Department sort of pays something towards it :D 

 

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

In which case it doesn't matter how much money you remit into Thailand. 

 

But even if you were Tax Resident, there is no need to file a return unless you have taxable income & all this talk of "I'll need something from RD to do my extension" is nonsense, there is no way that the RD can cope with an additional 300,000 Expat Tax Returns never mind the 100,000s of Thais that will get caught up in it. 

 

Granted they could re-instate the Tax Clearance certificate that you used to have to get if you'd stayed here longer than 6 months (IIRC Philippines still has something similar) but in that case you would need to get one whether you remitted any money to Thailand or not.   

 

 

By your definition "taxable income" = money transferred into Thailand from abroad.

 

So, my plan is to avoid being deemed a tax resident by not living in Thailand more than 180 days.

 

But, if that plan fails (ie, I get stuck in Thailand for some reason), then the backup plan is not to transmit any money into Thailand in 2024. Because if I transfer just $1 from abroad while being a Tax Resident (ie I remain in Thailand more than 180 days), then I must fill out tax forms. It's like being a little bit pregnant.

[The Cyclist]

54 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

How is Thailand going to enforce the new tax scheme if not via the visa renewal process? 

 

I might worry about that when it actually happens. Until then meh.

 

By focusing on what I do know. Limiting my remitted income to my Government Pension. I might be hit with an annual tax bill somewhere between zero baht and 80,000 baht.

 

To give that some perspective, I could do 179 days in Thailand and save myself somewhere between zero and 80,000 baht.

 

Spend the rest of the year in the UK and fork out,

 

Accommodation costs - zero

 

Emirates return flight - 50,000 baht.

 

Hire car UK - Conservative estimate, 30,000 baht x 6 = 180,000 Baht.

 

Fuel - Almost double the Thai price.

Household utilities - At least double Thai prices.

 

Way more than any potential Thai tax bill.

 

Or I could bounce around SE Asia in nearby Countries  - Which is also going to cost way more than any potential Thai tax bill.

 

Or I could save money, by accepting that things have changed, and at about 80,000 baht a year, I still think it is a good deal.

[Chivas]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

No it doesn't... There is talk that they want to look at taxing Global Income but the current changes to the rules are focused on tax based on income remitted to Thailand.  

 

Mike I havent read the thread in entirety otherwise we'd be in 2024 already lol but can I just ask if that transfers from the likes of Wise dispatched in my case from the UK under the guise of "living expenses" would be exempt from taxation  ??

I'm non resident Thailand but could well be close to this 183 days a year within the Country when all totted up

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The average farang retiree lives here on much less than 1 mill, surveys in this forum over the years confirm that.

The 1 million baht threshold is for the 25% tax bracket, but there are lower tax brackets that are still not fun. 

 

I am sure there are a lot of farangs who are not up to filling out the forms or paying any tax at all.

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

By your definition "taxable income" = money transferred into Thailand from abroad.

 

So, my plan is to avoid being deemed a tax resident by not living in Thailand more than 180 days.

 

But, if that plan fails (ie, I get stuck in Thailand for some reason), then the backup plan is not to transmit any money into Thailand in 2024. Because if I transfer just $1 from abroad while being a Tax Resident (ie I remain in Thailand more than 180 days), then I must fill out tax forms. It's like being a little bit pregnant.

You only need to file a Tax return if you have income that is taxable in Thailand. 

 

The simplest example is if you transfer <60K then there is no need to file a return as all Tax Residents have a minimum of 60K personal allowance. 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Chivas said:

 

Mike I havent read the thread in entirety otherwise we'd be in 2024 already lol but can I just ask if that transfers from the likes of Wise dispatched in my case from the UK under the guise of "living expenses" would be exempt from taxation  ??

I'm non resident Thailand but could well be close to this 183 days a year within the Country when all totted up

It all depends on where the money came from.

 

If it's from savings or income earned before 1/1/24 & you bring it in post 1/1/24 then there is no tax to pay on it...

 

If its income (lets say rent from a house or capital gains) then it might (depending on your country's DTA with Thailand & subject to any allowances you're entitled to) be taxable. 

 

If I was in your position & only spending approx. 6 months per year here, I'd make sure I spent no more than the 179 days to make sure I wasn't tax resident. 

 

  

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

How is Thailand going to enforce the new tax scheme if not via the visa renewal process? 

 

That depends on what you think this new interpretation of the rule, starting 01 Jan 2024 is intended to do.

 

1. Close a loophole that has been exploited by Thais.

 

or

 

2. Target the miniscule amounts of Expats / Retirees in Thailand.

 

As the answer is most likely to be option 1. Then immigration / annual extensions do not apply to those people.

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I might worry about that when it actually happens. Until then meh.

 

By focusing on what I do know. Limiting my remitted income to my Government Pension. I might be hit with an annual tax bill somewhere between zero baht and 80,000 baht.

 

To give that some perspective, I could do 179 days in Thailand and save myself somewhere between zero and 80,000 baht.

 

Spend the rest of the year in the UK and fork out,

 

Accommodation costs - zero

 

Emirates return flight - 50,000 baht.

 

Hire car UK - Conservative estimate, 30,000 baht x 6 = 180,000 Baht.

 

Fuel - Almost double the Thai price.

 

Household utilities - At least double Thai prices.

 

Way more than any potential Thai tax bill.

 

Or I could bounce around SE Asia in nearby Countries  - Which is also going to cost way more than any potential Thai tax bill.

 

Or I could save money, by accepting that things have changed, and at about 80,000 baht a year, I still think it is a good deal.

 

Yeah, that's where I am now, in terms of thinking.

Plus all this hopping about is maybe more fitting for those who aren't married, no families here, no pets. house etc.

Unless one is a very high earner, it doesn't make sense and would cost more (not to mention the trouble).

Not happy about being forced to pay, but such is life. Even relocating to some other destination comes with extra costs, probably a few years worth of new tax requirement payments.

 

As Roy Orbison said, 'You bite the bullet, then you chew it'.

 

Anyway, if it would turn out to be a disaster scaring masses of foreigners away, it wil eventually be amended.

 

[Danderman123]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

It all depends on where the money came from.

 

If it's from savings or income earned before 1/1/24 & you bring it in post 1/1/24 then there is no tax to pay on it...

 

If its income (lets say rent from a house or capital gains) then it might (depending on your country's DTA with Thailand & subject to any allowances you're entitled to) be taxable. 

 

If I was in your position & only spending approx. 6 months per year here, I'd make sure I spent no more than the 179 days to make sure I wasn't tax resident. 

 

  

That first paragraph doesn't make any sense.

 

If you transfer in money from abroad in 2024, RD is going to flag it, and you will have to fill out a tax form. Presumably, while filling out the form, you can inform RD that the money came from income earned in 2023 or earlier.

 

I am giving myself a headache, so I will stop here.

[EVENKEEL]

I seriously doubt these tax laws will affect expats from western countries. But, I'll play the "what if game".

 

I would stop the monthly bank deposit method for extensions. Divert back to US bank for my deposits and use an agent for extensions. Use my US debit card for living expenses here in Thailand.

[The Cyclist]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

Yeah, that's where I am now, in terms of thinking.

 

Best place to be. 

 

It is what it is, no point in stressing over it.