Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[scottiejohn]

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Frightening, this is going vary massively between offices.

And between posters and "so called experts" who obfuscate when replying to simple questions!

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, 4myr said:

Tourists don't have a Thai TIN, never did Thai filing, and rarely have a Thai bank account. If you are already in the loop having all 3, then in subsequent years you are possibly liable to pay tax and it is up to you to proof [file tax or show that you are not tax resident] that you don't need to pay.

Opinion only, please be clear and distinguish between opinion and fact gleaned from meeting with revenue staff

[4myr]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Opinion only, please be clear and distinguish between opinion and fact gleaned from meeting with revenue staff

Yes it's my opinion. 

 

Next week I will report you my meeting with another tax office in the same province and will ask them the same questions and tax filing cases.  

[topt]

Just now, 4myr said:

If you are already in the loop having all 3, then in subsequent years you are possibly liable to pay tax and it is up to you to proof [file tax or show that you are not tax resident] that you don't need to pay.

What I am curious about is how the Thai RD is actually going to change their processes to supposedly "catch" all the literally hundreds (if not thousands) of expats who should probably have been filing a tax return for god knows how many years already.......

If filing is based on an "honour" system perhaps they won't pro-actively do anything........

 

Considering the rule change was supposedly initially to close the loophole for Thai's it is going to be interesting to see how many foreigners who don't file actually get approached after the end of the first quarter next year. 

[JohnnyBD]

9 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Yes it's my opinion. 

 

Next week I will report you my meeting with another tax office in the same province and will ask them the same questions and tax filing cases.  

When you meet with them next week, please ask them if a non-tax resident and/or tourist needs to report any remittances or number days in-country to prove they are not a tax resident. Thank you...

Edited April 11 by JohnnyBD

[topt]

1 minute ago, JohnnyBD said:

When you meet with them next week, please ask them if a non-tax resident/tourist needs to report any remittances or days in-country to Thai RD. Thank you...

Now you are being silly. 

[Mike Lister]

18 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

And between posters and "so called experts" who obfuscate when replying to simple questions!

You simply don't get it, do you! You want a simple definitive yes or no answer to complex questions where you have failed repeatedly to provide all the information detail that was asked for. Please don't ask me any more questions and please read your PM's from two days ago.

[JohnnyBD]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

Now you are being silly. 

I know I am, but so is the notion that non-tax residents need to prove to Thai RD that we are non-tax residents by showing our passports, boarding passes, etc.

Edited April 11 by JohnnyBD

[4myr]

12 minutes ago, topt said:

What I am curious about is how the Thai RD is actually going to change their processes to supposedly "catch" all the literally hundreds (if not thousands) of expats who should probably have been filing a tax return for god knows how many years already.......

If filing is based on an "honour" system perhaps they won't pro-actively do anything........

 

Considering the rule change was supposedly initially to close the loophole for Thai's it is going to be interesting to see how many foreigners who don't file actually get approached after the end of the first quarter next year. 

My opinion: I think they will try to catch the big remitters [known thru the bank reporting system] first who are also tax resident [for Thai citizens - 100%, and for foreigners - I think RD is not connected to the Immigration 90-day reporting system, which is also not yet adapted to this new tax rule, so difficult at the moment]. EDIT: unless you as a foreigner already has filed before, as you are obliged to if you remit more than 150K baht in a year that you are tax resident.

Edited April 11 by 4myr

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Yes it's my opinion. 

 

Next week I will report you my meeting with another tax office in the same province and will ask them the same questions and tax filing cases.  

These tax threads have been through at least six months of data gathering and hypothesis and we've heard all the opinions and seen all the video's, there's a tax guide linked below that sets out our understanding to date. What we desperately need at this point is fact from meetings such as yours but we've probably all heard enough opinions.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-the-simple-tax-guide/?do=findComment&comment=18829674

 

[jayboy]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree entirely, as does everyone else I've encountered who has looked at this, baring two members above. Still, in the spirit of inclusivity!

 

Yes, but perhaps It's still worth pointing out for clarity's sake that those resident expatriates who do not remit assessable income don't need to file returns ( this is consistent with RD and PWC advice). They will presumably bank their current income in their home country and remit to Thailand  only from investments made prior to 2024.

[4myr]

32 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

When you meet with them next week, please ask them if a non-tax resident and/or tourist needs to report any remittances or number days in-country to prove they are not a tax resident. Thank you...

This is the case I prepared to ask them:

 

Case 4: 

In 2024 I am tax resident and in 2025 I have filed tax for 2024. In 2025 I need to be 8 months in NL to sell my house. I also intend to transfer all the income of my sold house to Thailand in 2025. 

In 2025 I am not a tax resident.  Am I obliged to file my taxes for 2025? Will RD office send me a reminder to file taxes on tax year 2025? If so, do I need to come to the RD office to show that I am not a tax resident in 2025.

[scottiejohn]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

perhaps It's still worth pointing out for clarity's sake that those resident expatriates who do not remit assessable income don't need to file returns ( this is consistent with RD and PWC advice).

Is this true that "resident expatriates who do not remit assessable income don't need to file returns"?

 

[4myr]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Yes, but perhaps It's still worth pointing out for clarity's sake that those resident expatriates who do not remit assessable income don't need to file returns ( this is consistent with RD and PWC advice). They will presumably bank their current income in their home country and remit to Thailand  only from investments made prior to 2024.

To my understanding: if you remit > 150K you need to file tax if you're resident. Only savings prior to 2024 in fiat currency accounts are exempt from taxes, not investments stored in securities accounts or non fiat currencies. 

[UKresonant]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

So, he is saying the millions of tourists who remit monies to Thailand will have to go to RD and prove that they were not a tax resident? Where is he getting this from?

Of course the 2024 tourist will not, when under 179 days. But say that tourist has a Thai Bank account and remitted say 1M THB in 2024, and in 2025 was Tax resident spending 244 days, and did file Q1 2026 for 2025. I would anticipate that they may enquire as to why no tax filed for 2024.  Especially as they only remitted THB 400k in 2025. 

The larger remittance in 2024 would flag, but I have no idea what the flag level is now or whether it is fixed dynamic or even random.

 

I'm updating my 'days where' spreadsheet and will record on there days at any time as part of a day when in Thailand or non UK countries, and every day present at the end of the day for UK days. Keep boarding passes stamps etc 

[JohnnyBD]

29 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

Of course the 2024 tourist will not, when under 179 days. But say that tourist has a Thai Bank account and remitted say 1M THB in 2024, and in 2025 was Tax resident spending 244 days, and did file Q1 2026 for 2025. I would anticipate that they may enquire as to why no tax filed for 2024.  Especially as they only remitted THB 400k in 2025. 

The larger remittance in 2024 would flag, but I have no idea what the flag level is now or whether it is fixed dynamic or even random.

 

I'm updating my 'days where' spreadsheet and will record on there days at any time as part of a day when in Thailand or non UK countries, and every day present at the end of the day for UK days. Keep boarding passes stamps etc 

Let's hope they won't be flagging & questioning every non-resident/tourist for example, who remits money to buy a condo and then later retires and becomes a resident.

Edited April 11 by JohnnyBD

[UKresonant]

28 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Let's hope they won't be flagging & questioning every non-resident/tourist for example, who remits money to buy a condo and then later retires and becomes a resident.

The ones I worry about are potential tourists that stumble into being cumulatively more than 179 days (as there home country is 183 days perhaps, or got run over on a pedestrian crossing just before going to the airport on day 177) have done a large tax exempt transaction in home country, remitted proceeds to Thailand buy a condo, fund 800k plus living expenses, and by some Random chance get tax audited by Thai RD.

 

But hopefully no one will be caught out that way...

 

Thailand can make a fantastic first impression, which may distract from due diligence.

There is still obsolete information in the WWW

Probably not the objective of condo sales to flag tax concerns.

Edited April 11 by UKresonant

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, 4myr said:

To my understanding: if you remit > 150K you need to file tax if you're resident. Only savings prior to 2024 in fiat currency accounts are exempt from taxes, not investments stored in securities accounts or non fiat currencies. 

Not true at all, the 150k must be assessable income before a person has to file, if it's exempt income they don't.

[Mike Lister]

14 hours ago, stat said:

Remember you can (maybe) never comeback to Thailand. In addition if you have an unforseen stop over in TH somewhere in the future you may be in trouble. I would rather ensure that you receive "gifts" in 2024. But up to you and yes the risk may be minimal.

Scaremongering. 

[Mike Lister]

8 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

Yes, but perhaps It's still worth pointing out for clarity's sake that those resident expatriates who do not remit assessable income don't need to file returns ( this is consistent with RD and PWC advice). They will presumably bank their current income in their home country and remit to Thailand  only from investments made prior to 2024.

 

10 hours ago, JimGant said:

Because it's unenforceable, or at least too ludicrous to enforce. Only if a too large a bank account suggests a tax return should have been filed -- might you get a knock on the door. That's why the expat needs to keep good accounts. How the fat cat rice farmer wiggles out of this -- I don't know. But I certainly can guess...

 

Why are you so insistent that we should file, even with no taxable income?

 

Oh, enforce how? There's no fine or penalty for failing to file, if no taxes owed. What are they going to do? (rhetorical question)

 

How does this grab you?

 

….…to assess their income for Thai tax and file a tax return, providing the  assessable income threshold has been exceeded. If the assessable income threshold has not been breached, it may not be necessary to file a return, especially since there is no penalty for not filing, when no tax is due. However, at least one authoritative interpretation of the TRD rules state that taxpayers who filed in the previous year, must file again in the following year, but this rule may not be actively enforced. Thai-sourced income is always taxable in Thailand, wherever it is received and regardless of tax residence status. Foreign sourced income is subject to remittance, tax residency and other factors such as terms of a DTA. 

[TigerCat]

JimGant

 

"Only if a too large a bank account suggests a tax return should have been filed -- might you get a know on the door."

 

How much is a "too large a bank account"?  

 

 

[jayboy]

10 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Is this true that "resident expatriates who do not remit assessable income don't need to file returns"?

 

 

On the basis of current evidence I believe it to be true. Yet in my opinion it would not be an unreasonable thing for the RD to request - so it needs to be monitored.

[jayboy]

10 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Is this true that "resident expatriates who do not remit assessable income don't need to file returns"?

 

 

It is currently believed so but that could change.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

How does this grab you?

 

I think it's fine but I wonder whether it's necessary to have any of the added highlighted text at this stage.It's a commendable attempt to provide clarity but not really possible at this stage without a lot of subjectivity.I'm sure it will be mostly clear in a few months.

 

Sometimes this discussion reminds me of that of medieval scholars debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

[Yumthai]

10 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Of course the 2024 tourist will not, when under 179 days. But say that tourist has a Thai Bank account and remitted say 1M THB in 2024, and in 2025 was Tax resident spending 244 days, and did file Q1 2026 for 2025. I would anticipate that they may enquire as to why no tax filed for 2024.  Especially as they only remitted THB 400k in 2025. 

They would not inquire on past tax calendar years unless audited. Then the simple answer will be: "I didn't file because I was not tax resident that year."

No further question will be asked and no actions done because at this point and with the current law no penalty arises when remitting foreign-sourced income in a year you are not tax resident.

[paddypower]

12 hours ago, 4myr said:

Today I visited my local tax office in Prachuap Khiri Khan. Here a short summary of things that might interest you as well.

 

On tax credit documents:

1) they prefer the foreign sourced documents with stated paid taxes to be translated to Thai. Does not need to be a certified translator. Can also be machine translated. As long as the translation makes sense.

 

2) I showed them an Annual Salary Statement from NL with stated paid payroll tax, and a Final Tax Assessment report from the RD in NL. Both documents they accept and the tax credits mentioned can be deducted from the Thai tax amount.

 

3) However a tax credit cannot be used over multiple tax years. Suppose your payroll tax credit in 2023 is 500K baht. And in 2024 you transfered 1M baht. As a single you need to pay 83K baht tax wrt the 1M remittance. By using the tax credit of 500K you don't need to pay tax. However, the remainder tax credit amount of 500K - 83K = 417K cannot be used in future tax years.

 

In years of not being tax resident:

1) In the tax year that a person is not tax resident, you can transfer as much money as you can. You will not pay taxes. This is in accordance with https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html.  “A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.”

 

2) the Prachuap tax officer and her colleague next to her, gave the wrong interpretation of Question 9 from the Governments Q&A . According to the tax officer, she will only look if in the year that you remit the money, you are tax resident. If yes, then you need to pay taxes. Contrary to Q&A #9:

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/thailand-revenue-department-foreign-sourced-income/

Question 9: If a person lived and worked or conducts business in a foreign country for a long time but later returned and brought to Thailand his accumulated incomes earned overseas, will such a person have to pay taxes on these earnings?

Answer: No taxes need to be paid. This is because the said accumulated earnings came from assessable income that occurred in the tax year in which the person stayed in Thailand for less than 180 days.

 

Fortunately we have the Q&A in Thai https://www.expattaxthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Thailand-Revenue-Department-QA-Revenue-Deaprtment-Order-DI-No.161-2023-15-Seotember-2023.pdf to convince that she is wrong.

 

An example of how a tax officer can ignore exceptions in a DTA from Thai tax rules:

I showed her Art 14.1 of the NL-Thai Double Tax Agreement: 

https://wetten-overheid-nl.translate.goog/BWBV0003872/1976-06-09?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp

" Article 14. Capital Gains.
1. Gains from the alienation of immovable property, as defined in Article 6, paragraph 2, may be taxed in the State in which such property is situated."

 

I told her - I will sell my house in NL in 2025 with profit. And I will transfer principal + profit in 2026. In 2025 and 2026 I will be tax resident. Do I need to pay taxes in Thailand in 2026. She said YES. 

not sure I follow your interaction with the tax dept. Is it correct to assume that your capital cost of your home/property (is it defined, as in other tax jurisdictions?) is not taxed, if brought into Thailand. Is it correct that your capital gain is taxed? that does not make much sense, since I bought and sold one property here and claimed it as my principal residence. The gain on the house and contents were not taxed. The gain on the land (which we cooked the books as to sale proceeds for) was taxed. I'm a retired international tax consultant (EU & Canada). I suspect these new taxation regulations are written on toilet paper. I am also of the opinion that anyone planning to sell their home in another country consider setting up a crypto channel to move funds here tax free.  

[paddypower]

40 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

They would not inquire on past tax calendar years unless audited. Then the simple answer will be: "I didn't file because I was not tax resident that year."

No further question will be asked and no actions done because at this point and with the current law no penalty arises when remitting foreign-sourced income in a year you are not tax resident.

would they not look at your visa stamp? if you are retired, you're resident (unless you have the travel stamps to show otherwise).

[paddypower]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

 

I think it's fine but I wonder whether it's necessary to have any of the added highlighted text at this stage.It's a commendable attempt to provide clarity but not really possible at this stage without a lot of subjectivity.I'm sure it will be mostly clear in a few months.

 

Sometimes this discussion reminds me of that of medieval scholars debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

I believe those scholars devoted years to their studies. I imagine it will be the same with the refinement and implementation  of regulations governing  Thai taxation of foreigners. We forget 'This is Thailand', where Inertia rules the land.

[paddypower]

1 hour ago, TigerCat said:

JimGant

 

"Only if a too large a bank account suggests a tax return should have been filed -- might you get a know on the door."

 

How much is a "too large a bank account"?  

 

 

easy peasy. I have 5 different bank accounts. How many do you have.?

 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

 

On the basis of current evidence I believe it to be true. Yet in my opinion it would not be an unreasonable thing for the RD to request - so it needs to be monitored.

I only added that highlighted text, because you said in an earlier post that you thought it should be made explicitly clear! Please make up your mind which you want.