We wait and see.

10 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

since when do you have it.... maybe CM it's different from down the south. I have a couple 1,000's withheld from my savings for the past 6 years and gave up on it as there's too much confusion as to how to get the TIN, small change not worth my time

Have had the TIN for over ten years!

First time

Went  to bank (fixed deposit) get their paperwork

Went to local tax office and they did all the paperwork including TIN

Waited for letter from Tax Office and off to whichever bank it is (starts with K) to open new account with them and deposit the cheque.

Get ATM card (will not cash cheque immediately so got ATM card immediately-no idea if I paid))

 

Now every 2/3 years repeat process, except opening of new account!

 

1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

I have been through all the unnecessary steps, including that one as well, and was told (by the 3 tax master at the 3 provinces I visited) to get tax refund one needs to be on a tourist visa, and apply when leaving the country, I explained to them that I collect a small interest from a term deposit account and was told that could NOT ask to be refunded the tax whithheld by the bank, been there done that, maybe the other provinces have a different view, but these 3 didn't give a damn about my request for a tax ID

You were told incorrectly, you can reclaim the tax on that interest.

 

If you are unable to get a TIN easily, I suggest you tell the TRD officer that you want to pay tax on property rental income and can they tell you how to do that, I imagine they will be more responsive. Also, you dont say what type of TRD office you applied at, you should make the request at the District Office and if that doesn't work, go to the Regional office.

22 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Also, you dont say what type of TRD office you applied at, you should make the request at the District Office and if that doesn't work, go to the Regional office.

I always use the Regional Office!

9 hours ago, topt said:

Ok so a little more involved than your original comment which imo alluded to those retired and not earning in Thailand.

The posts about another fellow, who is retired and not earning in Thailand, who got a surprise RD visit in addition to my Danish friend are earlier in this thread.  What I meant was that in addition to those cases involving expat pensioners there are posts in other threads about RD officers making surprise visits on farangs doing business in the wife's name, or officially visits to the wives. 

4 hours ago, hwas said:

My suggestion is that you ignore the speculative comments regarding the LTR.  The official word from BOI is that remittances to Thailand are not taxable.  Why pay any attention to comments made regarding the LTR by people who do not even hold the LTR?  

 

I now think the confusion regarding Royal Decree 743 stems from the use of the phrase "derived in the previous tax year".  This must be written from the perspective of some one, for example, doing his tax return in March 2025 in respect of income earned in 2024.  So that means effectively that what we would normally consider current income is tax exempt.  

Looking at the current versions of Section 41 para 2, the para that was reinterpreted through order P, 161/2566 last September, on the RD's website, I notice that the Thai version has notes in the text saying See Order  P. 161/2566 and See Order P. 162/2566 with links to the orders,  so that Thai readers will understand clearly what the current state of play is as far as the RD is concerned.

 

 

   ผู้อยู่ในประเทศไทยมีเงินได้พึงประเมินตามมาตรา 40 ในปีภาษีที่ล่วงมาแล้วเนื่องจากหน้าที่งานหรือกิจการที่ทำในต่างประเทศ หรือเนื่องจากทรัพย์สินที่อยู่ในต่างประเทศ ต้องเสียภาษีเงินได้ตามบทบัญญัติในส่วนนี้เมื่อนำเงินได้พึงประเมินนั้นเข้ามาในประเทศไทย
            (ดูคำสั่งกรมสรรพากร ที่ ป.161/2566)
            (ดูคำสั่งกรมสรรพากร ที่ ป.162/2566)

 

However, the English version has no notes or links and still reads. 

 

"A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part."

 

Although one accepts that its English translation is only for guidance, given that it knows that thousands of foreigners are deeply impacted by its capricious reinterpretation, it seems remarkably obtuse and unhelpful of the RD not to provide the same clarification to foreign readers that it has totally changed the meaning of the para in the same way it has done for Thai readers.  It is not particularly helpful for the RD officers who will have to deal with foreigners' tax returns that the RD has not bothered to add the clarifying notes either. But this unhelpful attitude towards foreign taxpayers is probably reflective of what can be expected in next year when the first tax returns have to be done under the reinterpretation.

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

since when do you have it.... maybe CM it's different from down the south. I have a couple 1,000's withheld from my savings for the past 6 years and gave up on it as there's too much confusion as to how to get the TIN, small change not worth my time

 

Actually there is a section of the RC that says you are entitled to receive interest from banks with the 15% withholding tax deducted, if you are willing to sign a consent form to allow the bank to automatically report details of your interest received the RD.  If you receive a total of more than 20k in interest from all accounts in a year, you have to declare that in your tax return and they will tax you the 15%.  I have never done that because I only found out about it recently.  I have also never claimed back interest because savings rates have been stuck at a miserable 0.5% forever, despite lending rates being at a 20 year high and it involves going round the banks to get a certificate of tax deducted.  If you own shares on the SET, the dividend tax credit is very useful, however, if you don't have too much other income, and well worth going to the effort to claim. You can get back more tax than was deducted from the dividends but Thai stocks have gone nowhere in about 7 years.

3 hours ago, Mavideol said:

I have been through all the unnecessary steps, including that one as well, and was told (by the 3 tax master at the 3 provinces I visited) to get tax refund one needs to be on a tourist visa, and apply when leaving the country, I explained to them that I collect a small interest from a term deposit account and was told that could NOT ask to be refunded the tax whithheld by the bank, been there done that, maybe the other provinces have a different view, but these 3 didn't give a damn about my request for a tax ID

 

They got this the wrong way round. Short term tourists cannot get the refund of the tax withheld because they are unable to get a TIN. Thais and foreigners with TINs can get the tax refunded. There is a space on the tax return form to declare interest income and, if had a TIN already, you could have filed a tax return by yourself and claimed the tax back within consulting any tax masters.  You can also avoid having the tax withheld by signing the consent form described in my above post.

 

The 3 provincial tax masters must have misunderstood that you wanted claim VAT rebates on shopping.

3 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

 

The 3 provincial tax masters must have misunderstood that you wanted claim VAT rebates on shopping.

Exactly, happened to me once too.

Thais sitting behind a desk heard a foreigner utter the word  "tax" and automatically figured he is talking about VAT (I wasn't) and he wants a refund (I didn't want one). 

18 hours ago, JimGant said:

Obviously, the downside is wasting time filing a nil tax return. Certainly, most of us have better things to do with our time than filling out a tax return with blank lines, after maybe having to waste time to get a TIN -- and maybe in both situations, having to go downtown, hunt for a parking place, then dealing with Thai bureaucrats. Is there really a downside, you ask? Rhetorical, of course -- since there's no upside, as there's no percentage penalty on zero taxes owed. And the 2000 baht fine for not filing a return if you have 120k assessable income -- is not a hard-and-fast nailed down law. But I'd pay 2000bt to not have to drive downtown -- twice.

 

 

I think it's great that some people are comfortable with what you've described and many will be. But I think it's important to remember that the AN membership is very diverse and contains a lot of older members on limited incomes who always want to play by the rules in Thailand. Many of the messages I've received over the past four months are from people whose priority was to abide by the rules and breaking them is a real fear for many. You and I can agree the realities of how "rules" work here sometimes but that doesn't remove their fear. Frequently, media sites such as AN are the sole source of English language information on topics such as tax and immigration rules for many people. This is why I think it's really important to present facts or near facts rather than to advise or suggest/recommend, because one size doesn't fit all. 

 

Another aspect of course is that you might be surprised at how many members consider that the risk of a potential 2,000 baht fine is not one they can afford or want to take.

 

Lastly, if ever you do get down to District 1 & 2 Revenue offices in Chiang Mai, it's a few hundred meters from Rajavej and there's loads of parking available, all the time. 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I think it's great that some people are comfortable with what you've described and many will be. But I think it's important to remember that the AN membership is very diverse and contains a lot of older members on limited incomes who always want to play by the rules in Thailand. Many of the messages I've received over the past four months are from people whose priority was to abide by the rules and breaking them is a real fear for many. You and I agree the realities of how "rules" work here sometimes but that doesn't remove their fear. Frequently, media sites such as AN are the sole source of information on topic such as tax and immigration rules for many people. This is why I think it's really important to present facts or near facts rather than to advise or suggest/recommend, because one size doesn't fit all. 

 

Another aspect of course is that you might be surprised at how many members consider that the risk of a potential 2,000 baht fine is not one they can afford or want to take.

 

Lastly, if ever you do get down to District 1 & 2 Revenue offices in Chiang Mai, it's a few hundred meters from Rajavej and there's loads of parking available, all the time. 

That's what I would aim for, never to break a rule, so that I was fined.

 

In the LTR visa thread there was a DTA themed youtube Video Carl Turner was the the main guy along with someone with DTA knowledge. She seemed to think it was better declaring (about 50mins in) as it would draw a line under that Tax year as opposed to potential questions in later tax years.

 

I don't really want interaction with Thai officials as far as is possible.

But if it was straight forward, uniform in application, and totally uncorupt, 

 

Target is to only remit to Thailand, whilst non resident, non-resident savings, and/ or amounts which would not exceed the 5% tax band at worst, if tax resident. But  potentially that requires a filing, and having to pay a couple of hundred quid tax at most, (prior to it being refunded if not accepted immediately as DTA taxed in UK only)

 

(Since first visiting Thailand in 1993 I've never done an extention of stay at an IO. as a theme of avoiding officialdom)

 

How will it in future go, with the file / no file scenarios under discussion I wonder.

 

(Real life events don't always facilitate the careful pre-planning )

2 hours ago, UKresonant said:

That's what I would aim for, never to break a rule, so that I was fined.

 

In the LTR visa thread there was a DTA themed youtube Video Carl Turner was the the main guy along with someone with DTA knowledge. She seemed to think it was better declaring (about 50mins in) as it would draw a line under that Tax year as opposed to potential questions in later tax years.

 

I don't really want interaction with Thai officials as far as is possible.

But if it was straight forward, uniform in application, and totally uncorupt, 

 

Target is to only remit to Thailand, whilst non resident, non-resident savings, and/ or amounts which would not exceed the 5% tax band at worst, if tax resident. But  potentially that requires a filing, and having to pay a couple of hundred quid tax at most, (prior to it being refunded if not accepted immediately as DTA taxed in UK only)

 

(Since first visiting Thailand in 1993 I've never done an extention of stay at an IO. as a theme of avoiding officialdom)

 

How will it in future go, with the file / no file scenarios under discussion I wonder.

 

(Real life events don't always facilitate the careful pre-planning )

Yes, very much so, that piece of mind knowing you've drawn a line under the year is important to many people, it is to me also.

 

Which spawned another thought....how far back can the TRD request an audit, is it 7 years, anyone know?

 

In other news.....I just filed my UK tax and I will pay 86 Pounds tax. It could have been zero but I wanted to pay a token amount so that, in keeping with previous years, I can demonstrate that I both file and pay. Line drawn under year.

15 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Yes, you're correct.

I'd rather reformulate: No tax to pay, no need to file a tax return.

After  26 years here full time, the golden rule is ''you must obey the law'' - and, in case you were not aware, the law is whatever is interpreted by the officer/court/whatever. I've managed to accept this, at Immigration. But forced to ''eat'' 5 mill. in condo value, at the Supreme Court level. just file a return, is my advice. It's a minuscule point: but one day, you may consider to apply for Thai citizenship, you'll need proof of having filed tax returns, regardless of no tax liability.  jimho 🙂 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, very much so, that piece of mind knowing you've drawn a line under the year is important to many people, it is to me also.

 

Which spawned another thought....how far back can the TRD request an audit, is it 7 years, anyone know?

 

In other news.....I just filed my UK tax and I will pay 86 Pounds tax. It could have been zero but I wanted to pay a token amount so that, in keeping with previous years, I can demonstrate that I both file and pay. Line drawn under year.

absolutely. same with our Canuck returns - altho' there, there is a claw-back of pension income clause if you don't file. clever people!

14 hours ago, Lorry said:

IF you really want a TIN - a big if - you can easily get one by applying for a refund of withholding tax (the tax withheld by your Thai bank from the interest of your Thai bank account). 

You have to go to the bank first, they will issue you a document stating how much withholding tax you paid,  then you have to bring this to the RD office.

This can routinely be done for the last 3 years. 

what I am interested in seeing, for the 2023 tax year, is what my tax accountant does with a fairly large amount of dividend income. its taxed on a w/h basis at 10%. and I do understand the rules for gross up to claim a refund (they're somewhat onerous). in prior years it was tax free. anyone else in a similar position - i.e. with a large Thai dividend income?

15 hours ago, nrasmussen said:

 

Here is the application form. Once filled out it can be sent by regular e-mail as stated on page 5. I'd also assume that if you have any questions you can send them to the same e-mail address.

Ansoegning_folkepension_i_udlandetpdf.pdf 279.71 kB · 1 download

You are more than kind. my Danish born wife was devastated to be reassessed for repayment of the 2023 years pension, retroactively. she has never owed any debt in her life and now at 82, she is receiving demands from their debt collection agency. all due to our ignorance of the rules that moving to Thailand, from Canada, with Canadian citizenship only - rendered you ineligible for the 2 Danish Govt pensions. what I am hoping to do is to personally settle the debt and apply for renewal of her Danish citizenship, provided it means something. The amounts are small - but the stress is unhealthy. again, tak.

15 hours ago, hwas said:

I have several friends in the exact same position as you.  Retired here after being posted to the embassy.  None of them have any concerns about this.  

As I have said that in my opinion, almost all of us will not be affected by the new interpretation but being an old fart, working and living here a long time, I realize life can sometimes stab you in the back so to speak.  I really do not believe I will be affected for at least the next 10 years but then again who knows?

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Which spawned another thought....how far back can the TRD request an audit, is it 7 years, anyone know?

Thai revenue code section 19

Section 19 Unless stated otherwise, in the case where an assessment official has a reasonable cause to believe that any person has filed a false or incomplete tax return, the assessment official shall have the power to issue a summons call upon that tax return filer for interrogation and issue a summons call upon a witness and order that tax return filer or witness to show accounts, documents or any other evidence but he shall give at least 7 days in advance from the date of delivery of summons. Nevertheless, the summons must be issued within 2 years from the date of tax return filing whether or not the filing was done within the time limit prescribed by law or the time extended by the Minister or Director-General, which ever is the later date. Except there is evidence or reasonable doubt that a tax return filer has intention to evade tax or in the case necessary for the purpose of tax refund, a Director-General may extend the time for the issuance of such summons in excess of 2 years but not exceeding 5 years from the date of tax return filing. However, the extension of time limit for the purpose of tax refund shall not exceed the time limit for refund.

13 minutes ago, paddypower said:

After  26 years here full time, the golden rule is ''you must obey the law'' - and, in case you were not aware, the law is whatever is interpreted by the officer/court/whatever.

"You must obey the law" in any country worldwide but here the interpretation and enforcement of the rules vary greatly depending on the location, time and, as you mentioned, the authority you deal with.

 

I've learnt along the decades that sticking to the law and willing to anticipate any forthcoming rules is counterproductive to say the least, considering the unreliability and corruption level of the Thai system. Since then, I move with the crowd (locals), being flexible pragmatic rather than proactive, being aware of what rules are enforced/followed and what are not, and my life is way stress-less.

 

30 minutes ago, paddypower said:

It's a minuscule point: but one day, you may consider to apply for Thai citizenship

I will never consider this.

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

"You must obey the law" in any country worldwide but here the interpretation and enforcement of the rules vary greatly depending on the location, time and, as you mentioned, the authority you deal with.

 

I've learnt along the decades that sticking to the law and willing to anticipate any forthcoming rules is counterproductive to say the least, considering the unreliability and corruption level of the Thai system. Since then, I move with the crowd (locals), being flexible pragmatic rather than proactive, being aware of what rules are enforced/followed and what are not, and my life is way stress-less.

 

I will never consider this.

Expats here are constantly talking about the need for a Plan B on most things in Thailand, which is very sensible of course. I think adopting a wait and see approach on the tax issue and not trying to second guess what might happen in the future, is a sensible Plan A. But any plan B related to the tax issue requires an understanding of what your personal exposure might be, which is why I think information discovery is important and I think that's what these threads are about, it's certainly what the tax guide is about. That's not being proactive, that's setting the scene and having sufficient information to execute a Plan B, if Plan A requires it. I don't know about others but all my Plan B's in life are based on a Plan A worst case scenario.

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

Thai revenue code section 19

Section 19 Unless stated otherwise, in the case where an assessment official has a reasonable cause to believe that any person has filed a false or incomplete tax return, the assessment official shall have the power to issue a summons call upon that tax return filer for interrogation and issue a summons call upon a witness and order that tax return filer or witness to show accounts, documents or any other evidence but he shall give at least 7 days in advance from the date of delivery of summons. Nevertheless, the summons must be issued within 2 years from the date of tax return filing whether or not the filing was done within the time limit prescribed by law or the time extended by the Minister or Director-General, which ever is the later date. Except there is evidence or reasonable doubt that a tax return filer has intention to evade tax or in the case necessary for the purpose of tax refund, a Director-General may extend the time for the issuance of such summons in excess of 2 years but not exceeding 5 years from the date of tax return filing. However, the extension of time limit for the purpose of tax refund shall not exceed the time limit for refund.

 

This is the limitation for taxpayers who have filed tax returns. 

 

My understanding is that the RD can go back 10 years if no tax return has been filed. 

4 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

This is the limitation for taxpayers who have filed tax returns. 

 

My understanding is that the RD can go back 10 years if no tax return has been filed. 

That's very interesting....thank you.

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That's very interesting....thank you.

 

If you closely read section 19 as quoted in freeworld's post, you'll see that the limitations cited are all predicated upon a return having been filed. It is completely silent on limitations when no return is filed.  

 

I am not sure whether the RD's regulations deal with the limitation on non-filing elsewhere or whether this falls back on the Thai Civil and Commercial Code with respect to the statute of limitations for various issues.

Well if non filing is a crime then well over half the entire Thai population need to be put in Jail.....

5 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

If you closely read section 19 as quoted in freeworld's post, you'll see that the limitations cited are all predicated upon a return having been filed. It is completely silent on limitations when no return is filed.  

 

I am not sure whether the RD's regulations deal with the limitation on non-filing elsewhere or whether this falls back on the Thai Civil and Commercial Code with respect to the statute of limitations for various issues.

The following from PWC Thailand tax booklet for personal tax.

 

"Penalties and surcharge
A taxpayer who is assessed additional tax by an assessment officer
on the grounds that an inaccurate return was filed, or who failed to
file a return, is subject to a penalty. The rate of penalty is 100% for an
inaccurate return and 200% for failure to file a return. Penalties may
be reduced by 50% if the taxpayer submits a request in writing and
the assessment officer is of the opinion that the taxpayer did not
intend to evade tax and cooperated with the officer during the tax
audit.

Any person who fails to pay or remit tax within the specified time is
liable to pay a surcharge of 1.5% per month, or fraction thereof, of the
amount of tax to be paid or remitted subject to a maximum equal to
the amount of tax to be paid or remitted.

 

Tax investigation and assessment
The Revenue Department is empowered to demand documents and
records for inspection for a period of two years. The period will be
extended to five years if it is found, or there is a reason to believe,
that there was tax evasion, or where a tax audit is conducted for the
purpose of paying a tax refund.
Nevertheless, under the Civil and Commercial Code, the Revenue
Department can assess tax for up to ten years."

 

I think it is this section from the Civil and Commercial Code

Section 448. Statute of Limitations

The claim for damages arising from wrongful act is barred by prescription after one year from the day when the wrongful act and the person bound to make compensation became known to the injured person, or ten years from the day when the wrongful act was committed.

However if the damages are claimed on account of an act punishable under the criminal law for which a longer prescription is provided such longer prescription shall apply.

 

Prescription

Section 193/31. Taxes 10 Years

The period of prescription for claims of the Government for taxes and rates is ten years. As to other claims of the Government relating to obligations, the provisions of this title shall apply.

 

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

The following from PWC Thailand tax booklet for personal tax.

 

"Penalties and surcharge
A taxpayer who is assessed additional tax by an assessment officer
on the grounds that an inaccurate return was filed, or who failed to
file a return, is subject to a penalty. The rate of penalty is 100% for an
inaccurate return and 200% for failure to file a return. Penalties may
be reduced by 50% if the taxpayer submits a request in writing and
the assessment officer is of the opinion that the taxpayer did not
intend to evade tax and cooperated with the officer during the tax
audit.

Any person who fails to pay or remit tax within the specified time is
liable to pay a surcharge of 1.5% per month, or fraction thereof, of the
amount of tax to be paid or remitted subject to a maximum equal to
the amount of tax to be paid or remitted.

 

Tax investigation and assessment
The Revenue Department is empowered to demand documents and
records for inspection for a period of two years. The period will be
extended to five years if it is found, or there is a reason to believe,
that there was tax evasion, or where a tax audit is conducted for the
purpose of paying a tax refund.
Nevertheless, under the Civil and Commercial Code, the Revenue
Department can assess tax for up to ten years."

 

I think it is this section from the Civil and Commercial Code

Section 448. Statute of Limitations

The claim for damages arising from wrongful act is barred by prescription after one year from the day when the wrongful act and the person bound to make compensation became known to the injured person, or ten years from the day when the wrongful act was committed.

However if the damages are claimed on account of an act punishable under the criminal law for which a longer prescription is provided such longer prescription shall apply.

 

Prescription

Section 193/31. Taxes 10 Years

The period of prescription for claims of the Government for taxes and rates is ten years. As to other claims of the Government relating to obligations, the provisions of this title shall apply.

 

It looks as though the landscape is changing from, "no need to file because there's no penalty", to, there is a fine for not filing plus not doing so exposes you to back audits for the past decade. 

20 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Actually there is a section of the RC that says you are entitled to receive interest from banks with the 15% withholding tax deducted, if you are willing to sign a consent form to allow the bank to automatically report details of your interest received the RD.  If you receive a total of more than 20k in interest from all accounts in a year, you have to declare that in your tax return and they will tax you the 15%.  I have never done that because I only found out about it recently.  I have also never claimed back interest because savings rates have been stuck at a miserable 0.5% forever, despite lending rates being at a 20 year high and it involves going round the banks to get a certificate of tax deducted.  If you own shares on the SET, the dividend tax credit is very useful, however, if you don't have too much other income, and well worth going to the effort to claim. You can get back more tax than was deducted from the dividends but Thai stocks have gone nowhere in about 7 years.

thanks for the feed back, well noted

On the topic of foreign tax credits, anyone can shine a light on these 2 quotes of two consulting firms  I found.

 

My question: what is common practice right now? Or are there different practices in the land?

 

From my first visit at my local tax office in Prachuap, my local tax officer offered me foreign tax credit on paid payroll tax.

While my country's DTA does not mention payroll tax for which a tax credit is permitted. 

 

Yes I understand that my local tax officer is hardly knowledgable of the contents of DTA, But I assume she got some general instruction from higher management, that already paid tax abroad, without any distinction, can be applied as a tax credit.

 

https://www.lorenz-partners.com/taxation-on-foreign-dividend-under-thai-law/

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/foreign-tax-relief-and-tax-treaties

"Foreign taxes cannot be taken as a credit against Thai taxes unless permitted under a double tax treaty (DTT)."

 

 

22 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You were told incorrectly, you can reclaim the tax on that interest.

 

If you are unable to get a TIN easily, I suggest you tell the TRD officer that you want to pay tax on property rental income and can they tell you how to do that, I imagine they will be more responsive. Also, you dont say what type of TRD office you applied at, you should make the request at the District Office and if that doesn't work, go to the Regional office.

am aware of that and as I said don't want the burden of filling, small change, Thailand needs money, it's my little contribution  555