Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[JohnnyBD]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Question: In light of the new tax rules that became effective 1 January 2024, what are you actively and seriously planning and intend to do in response?

My poll answers:

- I will not remit any monies in 2024, will use monies already in Thailand

- I will keep 2024 monies in home country, and never remit to Thailand 

- I will not stay in Thailand for more than 179 days in 2025 (non-resident)

- I will remit only pre-2024 & 2025 monies in 2025 to replenish THB accts

- I will remit only Social Security in 2026 & future years when tax resident

- I will not file a tax return, and will not pay income taxes in Thailand

- I will continue to pay taxes on all of my income in my home country

Good luck to everyone...

[UKresonant]

Planned to remit only;-

Savings from non-resident

Income Whilst non-resident

Taxed only in UK Gov pension

& perhaps sdditionally when TH tax resident;-

Taxed at source in UK private  pension(s) upto the amount of 

Thai RC Allowances+150k Zero+ slightly into 5% band.

 

So poll question maybe:-

Intermittently tax resident in Thailand, whilst restricting remittance whilst tax resident to low tax bands.

 

Of course life is often only a series of random events, where tax planning cannot aleays be 1st priority 

[JohnnyBD]

Just a question. If the rule was and always has been, that anyone remitting money in the same year earned, while being a tax resident, was required to file tax returns, then why wasn't this rule ever enforced before by TRD? I don't know anyone who's ever filed a tax return. What makes some think now, that just because TRD clarified a rule on previous year's income, that they will now strictly enforce tax filings with an army of auditors? Why has this become such a big deal in the digital media? Who will profit and has profited from advancing this issue? Maybe, this issue has been blown up unnecessarily. Just asking, because I am not convinced TRD will strictly enforce anything.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just a question. If the rule was and always has been, that anyone remitting money in the same year earned, while being a tax resident, was required to file tax returns, then why wasn't this rule ever enforced before by TRD? I don't know anyone who's ever filed a tax return. What makes some think now, that just because TRD clarified a rule on previous year's income, that they will now strictly enforce tax filings with an army of auditors? Why has this become such a big deal in the digital media? Who will profit or has profited from advancing this issue? Maybe, this issue has been blown up unnecessarily. Just asking, because I'm not convinced TRD will start strictly enforcing anything.

Many people filed under the old rules, I'm one.

[JohnnyBD]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Many people filed under the old rules, I'm one.

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

I'm not aware anyone has said that it will, are you.

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Many people filed under the old rules, I'm one.

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

 

I've shared the link from roughly where it's mentioned but a number of points prior to that are of interest so might be worth watching from the start... 

 

 

[JohnnyBD]

23 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

Just your thoughts? Why is this issue getting so much attention in the media and on this forum, when the rule has always existed whereby a tax resident remitting foreign income over a certain level was supposed to file a tax return, but many never filed and TRD never enforced it. Why should those expats file a tax return now, just because of the media attention, when they never filed one before? What makes us think now, that TRD will enforce it. Just asking.

[Yumthai]

32 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

The people you mention are among those who are, presumably, filing and paying tax in Thailand for years.

They may feel it's unfair and secretly hope that TRD will eventually come after the huge majority of non-filing non-paying Thai tax residents, applying to them harsh penalties nay jail/ban terms retroactively.

Then, they could flood the tax threads with a big and deserved "I told you so!".

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The people you mention are among those who are, presumably, filing and paying tax in Thailand for years.

They may feel it's unfair and secretly hope that TRD will eventually come after the huge majority of non-filing non-paying Thai tax residents, applying to them harsh penalties nay jail/ban terms retroactively.

Then, they could flood the tax threads with a big and deserved "I told you so!".

Utter nonsense 

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just your thoughts? Why is this issue getting so much attention in the media and on this forum, when the rule has always existed whereby a tax resident remitting foreign income over a certain level was supposed to file a tax return, but many never filed and TRD never enforced it. Why should those expats file a tax return now, just because of the media attention, when they never filed one before? What makes us think now, that TRD will enforce it. Just asking.

I give up, why? One possible answer might be that the rule was changed for a reason, perhaps because they I intend to enforce it, otherwise, why change it on the first place.

[Mike Teavee]

18 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just your thoughts? Why is this issue getting so much attention in the media and on this forum, when the rule has always existed whereby a tax resident remitting foreign income over a certain level was supposed to file a tax return, but many never filed and TRD never enforced it. Why should those expats file a tax return now, just because of the media attention, when they never filed one before? What makes us think now, that TRD will enforce it. Just asking.

 

I think the fact that it is getting more attention will mean TRD are more likely to enforce it but I don't believe they have the capacity to go after everybody that hasn't filed so will use a cut-off number above the 220K and/or randomly select people who haven't filed. 

 

[Mike Lister]

The TM30 law was created, enforced, then it was shelved snd then later enforced again. Why not the same thing for tax laws

 

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

It may be strictly enforced  should a co-incidental event flag you up somehow, in ongoing years. Bank deposit or transfer  if they do a sample for scrutiny, but what's the odds (oops sorry no gambling in TH)

 

Not as if they are going to pursue everyone, they haven't uptill now with their indiganouse folks 

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

 

I've shared the link from roughly where it's mentioned but a number of points prior to that are of interest so might be worth watching from the start... 

 

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

[UKresonant]

So if you do file a tax return, can you use it as proof of average  income for Extension of stay.   480k or 780k.  

 

Or if queried, 'why did you not file ?' A. RTP  rules that such income is not recognized for my nationality! 

 

 

[Klonko]

3 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

TRD will probably set up a system to tap the broader tax base after the the following year remittance loophole has been closed. I do not expect strict enforcement because the cost outweighs the benefits for TRD. I consider a THB 220k remittance hurdle not to be efficient. A non tax paying Thai tax resident remitting THB ≥ 1m per year could be a promising target and better does some tax planning. May be the retirees with the minimum required income will fall out of scope, but nothing is granted.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

https://mbmg-group.com/article/what-is-a-half-year-personal-income-tax-return-pnd.-94-and-who-has-to-file-it

[UKresonant]

9 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

So some experience reports may arise July to Sept 2024, for the half year filing ( if anyone does)

 

PND 94, not come accross that one either....

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

Which only reinforces the need to sell capital items either before moving to Thailand or in a year when you are not tax resident here. That would also seem to nix the idea of a new valuation point, as of 1 January 2024, that's disappointing. 

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Which only reinforces the need to sell capital items either before moving to Thailand or in a year when you are not tax resident here.

Especially as around the 46 minute mark he goes to explain how Capital Gains work...

1. The gain is from the date you acquired the asset & not the date you moved to Thailand (obviously answers the question about whether you can use a valuation from 31/12/2023 - You can't).
2. Tax on the remittance is calculated as a percentage of the total gain so you can't claim you're just bringing the capital part over. 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Especially as around the 46 minute mark he goes to explain how Capital Gains work...

1. The gain is from the date you acquired the asset & not the date you moved to Thailand (obviously answers the question about whether you can use a valuation from 31/12/2023 - You can't).
2. Tax on the remittance is calculated as a percentage of the total gain so you can't claim you're just bringing the capital part over. 

The question was asked a couple of days ago, when does income (including CG), become savings and not income. I think the answer is when the home country taxes have been satisfied and possibly, in the subsequent tax year to being earned also. Those things being correct, it means timing is everything. Selling the CG, settling home country taxes, waiting until the new tax year before becoming not Thai tax resident and remitting the funds, all have to take place, in order to avoid Thai tax.

[Mike Lister]

22 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

Coming back to this:

 

It doesn't make sense that a capital item can be held for say 25 years, sold in May 2024, 5 months after the start of the new tax rule and the entire gain subject to Thai tax. That is what most retirees would do, sell their home country homes they have lived in for many years and remit funds to Thailand to retire. Nobody in their right mind would do that if the entire gain were taxed here. Something's not right with this picture.

 

[UKresonant]

It is good that the highlighted that if taking the upto 25% Tax Free in UK, pension commencement lump sum. Do not be Thai Tax Resident the year of that transaction!

 

Could cost millions in Thai tax

 

Back 6 years ago I took mine in March, and did not fly to Thailand until after the UK tax year had concluded on the 5th April, and also ensured less than 180 days in that year...

 

That would be devastating if someone walked into that trap...

[Mike Lister]

29 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

The PND94 option would only apply to foreigners if that overseas rental income was remitted to Thailand throughout the course of the year. If no rental income was remitted in the first half of the year, PND 94 is unnecessary.

[UKresonant]

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The question was asked a couple of days ago, when does income (including CG), become savings and not income. I think the answer is when the home country taxes have been satisfied and possibly, in the subsequent tax year to being earned also. Those things being correct, it means timing is everything. Selling the CG, settling home country taxes, waiting until the new tax year before becoming not Thai tax resident and remitting the funds, all have to take place, in order to avoid Thai tax.

If you are Thai Tax resident at the time of The CG, would the  Thai Tax not have to be lower than Home country tax, at the point of the event. (Theoretical maybe rather than practical)

 

Other situation could be you are Thai Tax resident, but you are UK tax resident at the time of the CG event, over 183 days in that UK tax year (6th April to 5th April) 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, UKresonant said:

If you are Thai Tax resident at the time of The CG, would the  Thai Tax not have to be lower than Home country tax, at the point of the event. (Theoretical maybe rather than practical)

I thought it had been said that the only thing that's important from a Thai tax perspective is tax residency at the time the funds were remitted? I know this issue has flip flopped a few times, have I perhaps missed a flip or a flop?

[jwest10]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The TM30 law was created, enforced, then it was shelved snd then later enforced again. Why not the same thing for tax laws

 

Hi  Mike and not directly answering your last post but heard Carl Turner on the podcast on the Taxation of income and seems to be a lot better understood.
Mike in addition I thank you again for all your input and yes some other posters.
There are still areas of concern and confusion but for the average ex-pats it seems ok but for those very high-income individuals much more complicated.

Just to recap my understanding of these new rules:_ EXEMPTIONS AND DEDUCTIONS
 Over 65 (OAE)  190k Baht
  1st Exempt Tax   150k Baht
  Personal Tax         60k ?
   Personal Tax
   Spouse not working  60K?
    Pension Income
    including State          100k maximum

   TOTAL                          560K

Yes more than the income coming in and no tax pay payable and does this seem correct and then again do we have to fie a tax return in March 2025 Not yet got a TIN as yet?

Thanks, Mike and others
and for all your help   
John

PS i DO NOT WORK BUT CAN USE THE ALLOWANCES OK?
AWAITING A REPLY BUT AS YOU CAN ALL IMAGINE THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF QUERIES BUT THEY PROMISE IN TIME THEY WILL REPLY.
 



 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Hi  Mike and not directly answering your last post but heard Carl Turner on the podcast on the Taxation of income and seems to be a lot better understood.
Mike in addition I thank you again for all your input and yes some other posters.
There are still areas of concern and confusion but for the average ex-pats it seems ok but for those very high-income individuals much more complicated.

Just to recap my understanding of these new rules:_
 Over 65 (OAE)  190k Baht
  1st Exempt Tax   150k Baht
  Personal Tax         60k ?
   Personal Tax
   Spouse not working  60K?
    Pension Income
    including State          100k maximum

   TOTAL                          560K

Yes more than the income coming in and no tax pay payable and does this seem correct and then again do we have to fie a tax return in March 2025

Thanks Mike and others
and for all your help
John
 



 

Your final figure is correct but the titles of the deductions are off somewhat:

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 (doesn't matter if working or not)

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR) 

 

As far as filing is concerned, my view currently is that as long as the assessible income exceeds the threshold, and you have said yours does, we will need to file next year.

 

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

During the Q&A he clarifies that it's 220,000 THB if you're married & 120,000B if not.