5 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just a question. If the rule was and always has been, that anyone remitting money in the same year earned, while being a tax resident, was required to file tax returns, then why wasn't this rule ever enforced before by TRD? I don't know anyone who's ever filed a tax return. What makes some think now, that just because TRD clarified a rule on previous year's income, that they will now strictly enforce tax filings with an army of auditors? Why has this become such a big deal in the digital media? Who will profit or has profited from advancing this issue? Maybe, this issue has been blown up unnecessarily. Just asking, because I'm not convinced TRD will start strictly enforcing anything.

Many people filed under the old rules, I'm one.

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Many people filed under the old rules, I'm one.

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

7 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

I'm not aware anyone has said that it will, are you.

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Many people filed under the old rules, I'm one.

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

 

I've shared the link from roughly where it's mentioned but a number of points prior to that are of interest so might be worth watching from the start... 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

Just your thoughts? Why is this issue getting so much attention in the media and on this forum, when the rule has always existed whereby a tax resident remitting foreign income over a certain level was supposed to file a tax return, but many never filed and TRD never enforced it. Why should those expats file a tax return now, just because of the media attention, when they never filed one before? What makes us think now, that TRD will enforce it. Just asking.

32 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

The people you mention are among those who are, presumably, filing and paying tax in Thailand for years.

They may feel it's unfair and secretly hope that TRD will eventually come after the huge majority of non-filing non-paying Thai tax residents, applying to them harsh penalties nay jail/ban terms retroactively.

Then, they could flood the tax threads with a big and deserved "I told you so!".

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The people you mention are among those who are, presumably, filing and paying tax in Thailand for years.

They may feel it's unfair and secretly hope that TRD will eventually come after the huge majority of non-filing non-paying Thai tax residents, applying to them harsh penalties nay jail/ban terms retroactively.

Then, they could flood the tax threads with a big and deserved "I told you so!".

Utter nonsense 

23 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just your thoughts? Why is this issue getting so much attention in the media and on this forum, when the rule has always existed whereby a tax resident remitting foreign income over a certain level was supposed to file a tax return, but many never filed and TRD never enforced it. Why should those expats file a tax return now, just because of the media attention, when they never filed one before? What makes us think now, that TRD will enforce it. Just asking.

I give up, why? One possible answer might be that the rule was changed for a reason, perhaps because they I intend to enforce it, otherwise, why change it on the first place.

18 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just your thoughts? Why is this issue getting so much attention in the media and on this forum, when the rule has always existed whereby a tax resident remitting foreign income over a certain level was supposed to file a tax return, but many never filed and TRD never enforced it. Why should those expats file a tax return now, just because of the media attention, when they never filed one before? What makes us think now, that TRD will enforce it. Just asking.

 

I think the fact that it is getting more attention will mean TRD are more likely to enforce it but I don't believe they have the capacity to go after everybody that hasn't filed so will use a cut-off number above the 220K and/or randomly select people who haven't filed. 

 

The TM30 law was created, enforced, then it was shelved snd then later enforced again. Why not the same thing for tax laws

 

4 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

It may be strictly enforced  should a co-incidental event flag you up somehow, in ongoing years. Bank deposit or transfer  if they do a sample for scrutiny, but what's the odds (oops sorry no gambling in TH)

 

Not as if they are going to pursue everyone, they haven't uptill now with their indiganouse folks 

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

 

I've shared the link from roughly where it's mentioned but a number of points prior to that are of interest so might be worth watching from the start... 

 

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

So if you do file a tax return, can you use it as proof of average  income for Extension of stay.   480k or 780k.  

 

Or if queried, 'why did you not file ?' A. RTP  rules that such income is not recognized for my nationality! 

 

 

3 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

And, many many more never filed and it wasn't strictly enforced.

My question still stands, what makes some think this will be strictly enforced now?

TRD will probably set up a system to tap the broader tax base after the the following year remittance loophole has been closed. I do not expect strict enforcement because the cost outweighs the benefits for TRD. I consider a THB 220k remittance hurdle not to be efficient. A non tax paying Thai tax resident remitting THB ≥ 1m per year could be a promising target and better does some tax planning. May be the retirees with the minimum required income will fall out of scope, but nothing is granted.

7 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

https://mbmg-group.com/article/what-is-a-half-year-personal-income-tax-return-pnd.-94-and-who-has-to-file-it

9 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

So some experience reports may arise July to Sept 2024, for the half year filing ( if anyone does)

 

PND 94, not come accross that one either....

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

Which only reinforces the need to sell capital items either before moving to Thailand or in a year when you are not tax resident here. That would also seem to nix the idea of a new valuation point, as of 1 January 2024, that's disappointing. 

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Which only reinforces the need to sell capital items either before moving to Thailand or in a year when you are not tax resident here.

Especially as around the 46 minute mark he goes to explain how Capital Gains work...

1. The gain is from the date you acquired the asset & not the date you moved to Thailand (obviously answers the question about whether you can use a valuation from 31/12/2023 - You can't).
2. Tax on the remittance is calculated as a percentage of the total gain so you can't claim you're just bringing the capital part over. 

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Especially as around the 46 minute mark he goes to explain how Capital Gains work...

1. The gain is from the date you acquired the asset & not the date you moved to Thailand (obviously answers the question about whether you can use a valuation from 31/12/2023 - You can't).
2. Tax on the remittance is calculated as a percentage of the total gain so you can't claim you're just bringing the capital part over. 

The question was asked a couple of days ago, when does income (including CG), become savings and not income. I think the answer is when the home country taxes have been satisfied and possibly, in the subsequent tax year to being earned also. Those things being correct, it means timing is everything. Selling the CG, settling home country taxes, waiting until the new tax year before becoming not Thai tax resident and remitting the funds, all have to take place, in order to avoid Thai tax.

22 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

Coming back to this:

 

It doesn't make sense that a capital item can be held for say 25 years, sold in May 2024, 5 months after the start of the new tax rule and the entire gain subject to Thai tax. That is what most retirees would do, sell their home country homes they have lived in for many years and remit funds to Thailand to retire. Nobody in their right mind would do that if the entire gain were taxed here. Something's not right with this picture.

 

It is good that the highlighted that if taking the upto 25% Tax Free in UK, pension commencement lump sum. Do not be Thai Tax Resident the year of that transaction!

 

Could cost millions in Thai tax

 

Back 6 years ago I took mine in March, and did not fly to Thailand until after the UK tax year had concluded on the 5th April, and also ensured less than 180 days in that year...

 

That would be devastating if someone walked into that trap...

29 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

The PND94 option would only apply to foreigners if that overseas rental income was remitted to Thailand throughout the course of the year. If no rental income was remitted in the first half of the year, PND 94 is unnecessary.

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The question was asked a couple of days ago, when does income (including CG), become savings and not income. I think the answer is when the home country taxes have been satisfied and possibly, in the subsequent tax year to being earned also. Those things being correct, it means timing is everything. Selling the CG, settling home country taxes, waiting until the new tax year before becoming not Thai tax resident and remitting the funds, all have to take place, in order to avoid Thai tax.

If you are Thai Tax resident at the time of The CG, would the  Thai Tax not have to be lower than Home country tax, at the point of the event. (Theoretical maybe rather than practical)

 

Other situation could be you are Thai Tax resident, but you are UK tax resident at the time of the CG event, over 183 days in that UK tax year (6th April to 5th April) 

1 minute ago, UKresonant said:

If you are Thai Tax resident at the time of The CG, would the  Thai Tax not have to be lower than Home country tax, at the point of the event. (Theoretical maybe rather than practical)

I thought it had been said that the only thing that's important from a Thai tax perspective is tax residency at the time the funds were remitted? I know this issue has flip flopped a few times, have I perhaps missed a flip or a flop?

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The TM30 law was created, enforced, then it was shelved snd then later enforced again. Why not the same thing for tax laws

 

Hi  Mike and not directly answering your last post but heard Carl Turner on the podcast on the Taxation of income and seems to be a lot better understood.
Mike in addition I thank you again for all your input and yes some other posters.
There are still areas of concern and confusion but for the average ex-pats it seems ok but for those very high-income individuals much more complicated.

Just to recap my understanding of these new rules:_ EXEMPTIONS AND DEDUCTIONS
 Over 65 (OAE)  190k Baht
  1st Exempt Tax   150k Baht
  Personal Tax         60k ?
   Personal Tax
   Spouse not working  60K?
    Pension Income
    including State          100k maximum

   TOTAL                          560K

Yes more than the income coming in and no tax pay payable and does this seem correct and then again do we have to fie a tax return in March 2025 Not yet got a TIN as yet?

Thanks, Mike and others
and for all your help   
John

PS i DO NOT WORK BUT CAN USE THE ALLOWANCES OK?
AWAITING A REPLY BUT AS YOU CAN ALL IMAGINE THERE ARE A HUGE NUMBER OF QUERIES BUT THEY PROMISE IN TIME THEY WILL REPLY.
 



 

3 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Hi  Mike and not directly answering your last post but heard Carl Turner on the podcast on the Taxation of income and seems to be a lot better understood.
Mike in addition I thank you again for all your input and yes some other posters.
There are still areas of concern and confusion but for the average ex-pats it seems ok but for those very high-income individuals much more complicated.

Just to recap my understanding of these new rules:_
 Over 65 (OAE)  190k Baht
  1st Exempt Tax   150k Baht
  Personal Tax         60k ?
   Personal Tax
   Spouse not working  60K?
    Pension Income
    including State          100k maximum

   TOTAL                          560K

Yes more than the income coming in and no tax pay payable and does this seem correct and then again do we have to fie a tax return in March 2025

Thanks Mike and others
and for all your help
John
 



 

Your final figure is correct but the titles of the deductions are off somewhat:

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 (doesn't matter if working or not)

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR) 

 

As far as filing is concerned, my view currently is that as long as the assessible income exceeds the threshold, and you have said yours does, we will need to file next year.

 

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

On the subject of who needs to file the video posted earlier (might have been in a different thread) suggests the trigger for filing with non-Thai sourced income is remitting more than 220,000 THB pa... 

During the Q&A he clarifies that it's 220,000 THB if you're married & 120,000B if not.  

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

I am now quite sceptical about this rental income issue and the need to file a PND 94 twice a year, I just don't think that's correct.

 

If a UK citizen has rental income they must file an interim return (subject to thresholds) and in effect file a UK return twice a year. According to the video, it is now necessary to file a Thai tax return on that same income, twice a year also. That's four tax returns in one year on the same rental income, which doesn't pass the sniff test. That means the Thai RD wants a return filed on that income and tax paid, even before the annual accounting is done in the home country, there's no way that can be correct........sorry, I don't believe it.

32 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I thought it had been said that the only thing that's important from a Thai tax perspective is tax residency at the time the funds were remitted? I know this issue has flip flopped a few times, have I perhaps missed a flip or a flop?

That could well be the case, non-resident at point of remittance. But I am stuck at my primary planning rule that anything income or derived (2024 onwards) whilst Thai tax resident is potentially tagged as Thai assessable, whenever it is remitted.

Unless DTA and perhaps home tax authority priority etc. or expended outwith being remitted in some other way.....

 

Since I'm not 100% in Thailand, I would tend to think having the CG whilst not resident  and creating Savings Pots with paper trail would be more certain. (Provided practical considerations allowed)

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I am now quite sceptical about this rental income issue and the need to file a PND 94 twice a year, I just don't think that's correct.

 

If a UK citizen has rental income they must file an interim return (subject to thresholds) and in effect file a UK return twice a year. According to the video, it is now necessary to file a Thai tax return on that same income, twice a year also. That's four tax returns in one year on the same rental income, which doesn't pass the sniff test. That means the Thai RD wants a return filed on that income and tax paid, even before the annual accounting is done in the home country, there's no way that can be correct........sorry, I don't believe it.

Per the link you kindly provided it seems similar to the UK and depends on the level of income received (well remitted) 

https://mbmg-group.com/article/what-is-a-half-year-personal-income-tax-return-pnd.-94-and-who-has-to-file-it

 

What is a Half-Year Personal Income Tax Return (PND. 94)?
Who has to file it?

A half-year personal income tax return or PND. 94 is the income tax filing of an individual whose income from January to June exceeds 60,000 baht.

 

This tax filing is for those who receive the following types of income.

1. Income from rent of property such as land, houses, vehicles, etc.

2. Income from liberal professions, which are not freelances and have licenses, such as doctor, nurse, accountant, lawyer, etc.

3. Income from an independent contract such as contractors.

4. Other income which is classified as 8 types of assessable income such as income from online sales, acting, income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered, etc

 

So if I receive £1,000 net rental income & transferred £500 each month (approx. 23K THB) I would have "Earned" 138K (6 x 23K) between Jan and June so would need to file a 1/2 year return.... but if I brought it all over in July I would just have to include it in my annual return.