Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jerrymahoney]

33 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Thailand's not about to break any tax treaty, as it gives them (in the US case) an actual advantage in what monies they have taxation rights over, like private pensions, IRAs, 401ks, annuities, et al.

Just to note that private pensions, IRAs, 401ks, et al. are addressed in the US-Thailand DTA Article 20 Paragraph 1.

 

Annuities are separately addressed in Article 20 Paragraph 3.

Edited January 5 by jerrymahoney

[The Cyclist]

33 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, yes and no. If a DTA says your gov't pension is not taxable by Thailand, but only by your home country -- then, yes, your gov't pension is not assessable income for Thai tax purposes.

 

I am quite clear on the UK - Thai DTA regarding Government pensions and other pensions.

 

What I was not clear on ( But was led to believe ) was that my Government Pension  was not classed as ' assessable income ' and therefore no annual Thai Tax filing was required.

[JimGant]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

When the tax payer signs the form they are verifying that it is true and correct, it says that......correct includes that the form is complete and that there are no omissions.

 

Yes, and as a recent post shows, only assessable income is to be shown on your Thai tax return. Thus, income excluded by the DTA would not be shown -- or income not excluded by the DTA -- but not remitted in year earned -- would also not be assessable income.

 

Thus, I would feel no lack of integrity by signing such a tax form, saying there are no omissions. Of course, under the aforementioned rules, I also would have absolutely no assessable income, thus the form I would sign would say I have no inclusions. As such, there would be no reason to submit a tax return. Thus, nothing to sign. Nevermind.

[JimGant]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

What I was not clear on ( But was led to believe ) was that my Government Pension  was not classed as ' assessable income ' and therefore no annual Thai Tax filing was required.

 

Yes. But what's weird about the UK-Thai tax treaty is that private pensions aren't addressed at all, at least that I can find. And, there's not even an Article addressing "Other Income," like in the US DTA, where income not specifically addressed in Articles is discussed.

 

So I can see why Brits scratch their heads when it comes to private pensions and Thailand. Was it intentionally left out of the treaty? And if so, then how do you know if Thailand has "assessable income" of your private pension -- or not?

 

Maybe the answer lies in the Articles on dependent and independent employment compensation..... But, if I were a Brit, I'd sure like something definitive on private pensions remitted to Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Yes, and as a recent post shows, only assessable income is to be shown on your Thai tax return. Thus, income excluded by the DTA would not be shown -- or income not excluded by the DTA -- but not remitted in year earned -- would also not be assessable income.

 

Thus, I would feel no lack of integrity by signing such a tax form, saying there are no omissions. Of course, under the aforementioned rules, I also would have absolutely no assessable income, thus the form I would sign would say I have no inclusions. As such, there would be no reason to submit a tax return. Thus, nothing to sign. Nevermind.

A couple of points Jim.

 

Once again, this thread is not just about you, your circumstances and needs, you've told us tens of time since page one that you wont have to pay Thai tax, that's great isn't it! This thread is actually about demonstrating to everyone, typically posters from other countries, what the position is on these various  tax related challenges. 

 

There are a lot of posters who feel put off by many of these discussions and about how complex and unnecessary some of the discussions are. Many people are having difficulty grasping even the basics because of the nature and style of the discussions. I don't know about other frequent posters in this thread but I'm averaging around five PM's a week from people looking for simple explanations and for help in understanding those basics. The thread would do well to redirect itself, if it is to be of any value to a majority rather than just a talking shop and ego sharpening exercise for the few.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

So I can see why Brits scratch their heads when it comes to private pensions and Thailand. Was it intentionally left out of the treaty? And if so, then how do you know if Thailand has "assessable income" of your private pension -- or not?

 

The UK - Thai DTA is pretty basic, probably by design.

Which is why my Private Pension is now hitting my UK account instead of my Thai account. Which may change once the Thai Gov / RD comes out with clarification.

 

 

[JimGant]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

How about this example. 

A US person transfers in 30k usd in a year.

His social security is 20k and the rest of the 30k being 10k from an IRA.

So the American only has to worry about the 10k, correct?

 

Yes, but not much worry, in extra taxes, because, yes, Thailand will get first dibs on taxing that 10k -- but due to the saving clause in the DTA, you also have to declare that IRA distribution on your US 1040 return. And the US has to give you a dollar for dollar tax credit for what you pay Thailand in taxes. Thus, between what you pay Thailand, and what you pay the US (after the tax credit) is probably a wash.

 

Plus, if 10k is your only assessable income for Thai tax purposes, you probably won't have any Thai taxable income, after subtracting out all the allowances, deductions, et al. Thus, your only tax bill will be with Uncle Sam, same as if you'd never left Kansas. Thus, you're treated AS IF you're a US tax resident, even tho' you're a tax resident of Thailand, not the US (are you listening, Jerry?)

[jerrymahoney]

6 minutes ago, JimGant said:

(are you listening, Jerry?)

Yes. And he's not talking about annuities.

[JimGant]

25 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't know about other frequent posters in this thread but I'm averaging around five PM's a week from people looking for simple explanations and for help in understanding those basics.

 

Well, they came to the right person for simple explanations. You lost my vote pages ago, when you advised to submit a tax return with all your income, not just assessable income. Then, recently, you gloat that "I submitted a return with no omissions." So, from pages ago, I remember your going through your return with the clerk, she checking off, "not taxable, not taxable, not taxable, etc" Yep, no omissions. But plenty of stupidity -- that RD office probably had plenty of laughs over the stupid farang that likes to report non assessable income.

[Guderian]

Congratulations, 200 pages!

Has anyone actually visited their local tax office and asked a tax inspector, or someone in a senior position, for clarification?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Well, they came to the right person for simple explanations. You lost my vote pages ago, when you advised to submit a tax return with all your income, not just assessable income. Then, recently, you gloat that "I submitted a return with no omissions." So, from pages ago, I remember your going through your return with the clerk, she checking off, "not taxable, not taxable, not taxable, etc" Yep, no omissions. But plenty of stupidity -- that RD office probably had plenty of laughs over the stupid farang that likes to report non assessable income.

You just don't get it do you. You've even got to turn an attempt to redirect the thread into something useful for many, into a personal attack! Whoosh went the point. 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Guderian said:

Congratulations, 200 pages!

Has anyone actually visited their local tax office and asked a tax inspector, or someone in a senior position, for clarification?

Yes, there have been several people in different parts of the country have made visits and asked different question but nobody seems to be further ahead as a result. It's a face thing, nobody is going to say I don't know so everyone fields their own answers. I think the truth is that much of this is still WIP, centrally.

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Well, they came to the right person for simple explanations. You lost my vote pages ago, when you advised to submit a tax return with all your income, not just assessable income. Then, recently, you gloat that "I submitted a return with no omissions." So, from pages ago, I remember your going through your return with the clerk, she checking off, "not taxable, not taxable, not taxable, etc" Yep, no omissions. But plenty of stupidity -- that RD office probably had plenty of laughs over the stupid farang that likes to report non assessable income.

For the benefit of other readers, let me just clarify:

 

Yes, I have filed tax returns in Thailand for several years, that's because I have income that arises in Thailand and I have transfers from overseas that are remitted in the year they are earned, into my Thai bank account. And Thai Revenue law says anyone who has assessible income over 120 k per year, must file a tax return. Well I did, so I did and there's few chaps here that it doesn't sit well with , it's like driving behind the guy who's only doing the speed limit, he must be an idiot of course. 

[JimGant]

55 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Annuities are separately addressed in Article 20 Paragraph 3.

 

Yes. And they're taxable only in the contracting state of residency. What don't you understand?

Quote

Under paragraph 3, annuities that are derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State are taxable only in that State.

 

As I recall, you, for some reason, got hung up on the word "derived." Are you still maintaining that "derived" somehow means taxable in the contracting state where paid?

 

[jerrymahoney]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Yes. And they're taxable only in the contracting state of residency. What don't you understand?

 

As I recall, you, for some reason, got hung up on the word "derived." Are you still maintaining that "derived" somehow means taxable in the contracting state where paid?

 

You wrote a few days ago:

 

"Should the RD want to have a few rounds on income vs capital, that might prove interesting. But, I really don't think they have, or can afford to have, the resources for such scrutiny."

 

Well if you want to go a few rounds with someone on this stuff, it's going to be with someone other than me.

 

You're beginning to sound like GWBush with his: "Bring 'em on"

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, Guderian said:

Congratulations, 200 pages!

Has anyone actually visited their local tax office and asked a tax inspector, or someone in a senior position, for clarification?

Well.  As Mike Lister correctly, says they wouldn't know and don't want to lose face.  Remember the fanfare announcement of the Phuket sandbox for returnees to Thailand during COVID. Thai embassies and consulates around the world were still saying they hadn't received information on how to process applications a week or two after the government announced the start date for applications.

[TravelerEastWest]

On 1/4/2024 at 4:42 PM, stat said:

@Mike ListerJerry is right on this one, there are a lot of countries that do not use the 180/183 day rule and therefore you can be tax resident in 2 or more countries. Another example: in Germany you are a tax resident if you have an abode in Germany. A garage with water and electricity that you could use to live in is sufficient. Even if you have not spend a second in Germany you are considered a tax resident for the whole year. @Mike Lister

No offense pls abstain from posting on issues where you have not checked the factuality in detail. It comes as a surprise to me that you have worked in the big 4, but my guess is not in a tax consultant role. I know a lot of big 4 audit and consulting partner who do not have a clue about taxes and openly admit it because they work in other fields.

 

I  worked as a tax accountant a long time ago at a large International accounting firm in America and I can assure you that there is not a single audit partner or manager ( probably worldwide) who does not have a clue about taxes - not one. they were being modest when they spoke to you. Is an audit partner or manager at the same skill level as a tax partner or manager for the world of taxes - no. But taxes are considered in an audit and while the tax department of a firm is normally called in to help with the the audit the audit partner needs to understand and sign off on the audit a big responsibility...

 

Now someone who works for a large accounting firm in banking consulting or IT may not know about taxes... maybe that is what you mean when you say consulting partner a non accounting or tax position...

[bugger bognor]

By the time any of you old Kodgers have to legally get a tax number and file a return in Thailand you will be brown bread the enthusiasm from our DIM USA folk probably ex prefects you know the type! This thread and the stress of your worrying will take another 6 months off your days. nothing has changed except your delusional interpretation of a short statement of a loophole being tightened up aimed at the super rich Thai not farangs buying condos and spending there few million baht a year here!  THIS  IS THAILAND not the USA thank F,,,,,,,CK for that, 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

 

I  worked as a tax accountant a long time ago at a large International accounting firm in America and I can assure you that there is not a single audit partner or manager ( probably worldwide) who does not have a clue about taxes - not one. they were being modest when they spoke to you. Is an audit partner or manager at the same skill level as a tax partner or manager for the world of taxes - no. But taxes are considered in an audit and while the tax department of a firm is normally called in to help with the the audit the audit partner needs to understand and sign off on the audit a big responsibility...

 

Now someone who works for a large accounting firm in banking consulting or IT may not know about taxes... maybe that is what you mean when you say consulting partner a non accounting or tax position...

Which is just another pointer towards that posters credibility or lack of. Nobody in Tax within the Big 4 reaches Partner without first having been at the coalface for a few years, it just doesn't happen. Plus partners have to go out and talk with potential clients, most of whom are CFO's in City blue chips, if they don't understand the detail, they will not win the client.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

By the time any of you old Kodgers have to legally get a tax number and file a return in Thailand you will be brown bread the enthusiasm from our DIM USA folk probably ex prefects you know the type! This thread and the stress of your worrying will take another 6 months off your days. nothing has changed except your delusional interpretation of a short statement of a loophole being tightened up aimed at the super rich Thai not farangs buying condos and spending there few million baht a year here!  THIS  IS THAILAND not the USA thank F,,,,,,,CK for that, 

How amazing is that, I actually agree with you for once.

[UKresonant]

16 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Yes. But what's weird about the UK-Thai tax treaty is that private pensions aren't addressed at all, at least that I can find. And, there's not even an Article addressing "Other Income," like in the US DTA, where income not specifically addressed in Articles is discussed.

 

So I can see why Brits scratch their heads when it comes to private pensions and Thailand. Was it intentionally left out of the treaty? And if so, then how do you know if Thailand has "assessable income" of your private pension -- or not?

 

Maybe the answer lies in the Articles on dependent and independent employment compensation..... But, if I were a Brit, I'd sure like something definitive on private pensions remitted to Thailand.

 

Yes clarity would be good but I suspect that may not be simple to obtain. 

 

A. It looks like a possibility that the UK  perhaps surrenders everything to Thai RD as soon as you click over the 180 Days under article 4 fiscal domicile, (I'm unlikely to ever be 365 Days in Thailand, the only year I exceeded 179 Days was a cumulative stays of about 270ish Days)

As my UK Government Pension is the only element that would in that case remain to be taxed in the UK from Thai RD, which as a proportion of me pension stream would only keep me in Mama Noodles . (The other private pensions would continue to have taxed deducted at source in the UK)

I think based solely on Taxation considerations, if the above prevails, and since I'm just over 4 years away from the over 65 enhanced allowances, it would seem Thailand is for me a sub 180 day affair with maybe majority years being Mama Noodles + non resident accumulation only. As taxation there would be higher especially for the next 4 years.

Excepting a needs must situation of course!

 

Importing 800k if taxed, Nope

Importing 400k still,  Maybe.

 

Better start Record keeping, financials silos(new), and that Days in UK Vs Days in Thailand tracker file again, cloud drive of PDFs etc 

 

B. The other way  is Pensions are taxed in UK, and they allow tax credits in Thailand, for the tax deducted in the UK i.a.w. UK  DTA article 23 3), (Same concern sub age 65), similar to their generalized Sept announcement; 'DTA don't worry' ( unless from the UK maybe).

 

C. Should they move Global Tax, perpetually similar to A above + worse.

 

Will have to assume "A" above, until it is clear(er), but probably never definitive.

 

 

 

Edited January 5 by UKresonant

[Mike Lister]

It might be helpful and constructive if we could collectively, put together a list of facts and pieces of information that we can then post for the benefit of others, in a separate NON-DISCUSSION thread. In short, distill the past 200 pages into something useful! I know that many people are still trying to understand the basics on all of this and that lots of people don’t believe it effects them or that anything will happen. These are some of the things that I think will be helpful to others, if you have ideas, feel free to contribute:

 

A copy of the tax tables

A SIMPLE list of deductions and exemptions

Guavamans sample tax return

A SIMPLE list of the rules, that apply to everyone

A list of KNOWN FACTS that are country specific

 

All of the above are available in sherrings and mazars, the problem is, few people want to read them and even fewer understand them.

 

Simplicity and brevity will be important.

 

Thoughts?

[lexxy]

Congrats on 200 pages of waffle everyone

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Simplicity and brevity will be important.

 

Thoughts?

Yes -- How will my agent take care of taxes as well?

[UKresonant]

There are still a lot of pages on the web that still describe the old situation.

 

It might be worth a sentence in the list for potential new retirees, as a hint to consider  perhaps placing the 800k / 400k and other start-up provision whilst not yet tax resident.

 

They should also not leave it to the last minute as in multiples it could impact Dad's Fx rate for his Xmas/New Year trip

[Ralf001]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It might be helpful and constructive if we could collectively, put together a list of facts and pieces of information that we can then post for the benefit of others, in a separate NON-DISCUSSION thread. In short, distill the past 200 pages into something useful! I know that many people are still trying to understand the basics on all of this and that lots of people don’t believe it effects them or that anything will happen. These are some of the things that I think will be helpful to others, if you have ideas, feel free to contribute:

 

A copy of the tax tables

A SIMPLE list of deductions and exemptions

Guavamans sample tax return

A SIMPLE list of the rules, that apply to everyone

A list of KNOWN FACTS that are country specific

 

All of the above are available in sherrings and mazars, the problem is, few people want to read them and even fewer understand them.

 

Simplicity and brevity will be important.

 

Thoughts?

Revenue department website is a good place to begin.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

[Mike Lister]

Thank you for the feedback, I wasn't expecting a positive response TBH so that's good.

 

I just need to sit and think through  the best way to construct this, without every contribution becoming a lengthy discussion. I like the idea of the RD link as a starting point, it's simple and easy to understand.

 

 

[jerrymahoney]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I like the idea of the RD link as a starting point, it's simple and easy to understand.

Well OK but then there is this from RD link:

 

2.1 Assessable Income

Income chargeable to the PIT is called “assessable income”. The term covers income both in cash and in kind. 

 

So what is assessable and what is non-assessable? From some of the posts on here, non-assessable is what I say is non-assessable. 

 

Even though I may have 5 million baht deposited annually into a Thai bank account, if i say that it is ALL non-assessable, that is what it is. No need to fill out any silly PIT forms.

 

Trust me. You betcha.

Edited January 5 by jerrymahoney

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Yes -- How will my agent take care of taxes as well?

The bad agent industry (and it is becoming that), has the potential to shrivel and die or grow massively as a result of this. If bad agents get around any RD approvals also, as well as getting around the banking issues too, their fees will only increase. If downstream, tax clearance certificates are required to exit the country and they are able to skirt that too, Immi and visa's will become a laughing stock. All of which makes me think that the bad agent industry isn't going to be of much use with RD issues for visa's extensions.

 

I suggest we don't attempt to include anything about this aspect, but that's just me.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

Well OK but then there is this from RD link:

 

2.1 Assessable Income

Income chargeable to the PIT is called “assessable income”. The term covers income both in cash and in kind. 

 

So what is assessable and what is non-assessable? From some of the posts on here, non-assessable is what I say is non-assessable. 

 

Even though I may have 5 million baht deposited into a Thai bank account, if i say that it is ALL non-assessable, that is what it is.

 

Trust me. You betcha.

Somebody will be along shortly and ask........are you telling me that after 200 pages, you guys haven't managed to even decide what is and what is not assessable income.....FFS! And they will have a very valid point! 

 

Look, there is a basic definition of what is assessable income, anything not meeting that definition is not assessable. We will not be able to define every possible type, there will always be exceptions so we just need to say that. We are not attempting to become the PWC of tax in all of this, we are merely attempting to produce something simple and useable for the majority. I just googled, "what is assessable income Thailand "and the first two quotes are from the RD defining what is and what is not assessable income, surely something very similar to those things will suffice for out purpose?

 

The problem with this aspect is that some "expert" posters  always want to find exceptions to everything and tell us what happens in Germany or the US and go so tangential to the topic that they, and every one else, forgets to return.