Chiang Mai non-o child extension problem

[ChaiyaTH]

I am not married but do have a Thai child since 5 years, I am obviously also on the birth certificate and have done non-o visa with extensions of 60 days, as well a while yearly extensions. This all without any issues, as well I did these 60 day extensions in Chiang Mai before multiple times.

 

I was intending to just do a 30 day extension as of travel plans yesterday and had all papers required prepared properly. I was then told that I can not do a 30 day extension on a single entry non-o visa, which confused me. I then told my girlfriend/mother and son to come with me, aside of the additional paperwork for that, to do a 60 day extension instead.

 

They then refused it again, saying I would need a document from court now, to be able and do that. This is complete nonsense, but I hit the wall, all he could do was a 7 day extension. I refused that obviously, and now plan to fly to Hanoi last minute, I guess.

 

Can anyone confirm this to be nonsense or true? And can anyone tell me if it is nonsense, if i should be able to still do a 30 day extension elsewhere? That would be easier than leaving tomorrow already.

 

I'm really starting to be done with Chiang Mai immigration, as well now this new tax law, then now the cannabis reverse, starting to get really on my end of limits.

 

It was much easier down south, in Bangkok and Isaan. Never gonna deal with CM again, not even for yearly, as I do have 400K to deposit too. Done with them after this.

Edited September 27, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[DrJack54]

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

And can anyone tell me if it is nonsense, if i should be able to still do a 30 day extension elsewhere?

Not nonsense and no you cannot obtain 30 day extension to a non O 

[ChaiyaTH]

25 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Not nonsense and no you cannot obtain 30 day extension to a non O 

Obviously I mean at the end either a 30 or 60 day extension with papers as usual. They just suck in Chiang Mai, I already got hold via contacts of other offices who say it is nonsense to need a court document.

 

For now, I just gonna fly out and get a new non-o visa, and then extend yearly down south. Leaving Chiang Mai forever within the next 3 months.

Edited September 27, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[CMBob]

Out of curiosity, what "court document" are they requiring.  Something to do with your marriage?

 

[bigt3116]

Guessing the op is not married to the mother and now as the child is 5, immigration want to see paperwork to the effect that he is the legal father, (name on birth cert is not the same).

 

As the child is 5 you should be able to go to your local amphur and have the child certify that you are their father and that piece of paper should suffice for immigration.

[Liquorice]

36 minutes ago, CMBob said:

Out of curiosity, what "court document" are they requiring.  Something to do with your marriage?

 

He isn't married, the child was born out of wedlock, therefore under Thai law he isn't recognised as the legal Father, even if his name appears on the birth certificate. Immigration do not accept being named on the birth certificate as evidence of being the Father when not married to the Mother.

 

When a child is born, it is clear who the mother is. Who the father is remains the question. If the mother is married, the law will assume that the husband is the father of the child. It doesn't matter who makes the registration.
However, if the mother is not married, the law makes no such assumption and the father being named on the birth certificate is not enough. After all, anyone can be named on the birth certificate as the father, without that person knowing, let alone agreeing. In that case, the father has to legitimize the child, with which he acknowledges before the law that he is the father of the child.

 

CM Immigration are correct to refuse his extension application based on Thai child.

 

3. Parental Rights in Thailand

a) If the parents are not married

In Thailand, only the mother will have parental rights under section 1546 of the TCCC unless the father does one of the 3 steps written in the following clause, 1547. We strongly suggest to a father that is not married to the mother to legitimate his rights as father by asking the court to do it. The court will normally accept unless the other party can prove that it is NOT in the best interest of the child.
https://thailawonline.com/family-law-in-thailand/

 

TCCC = Thailands Civil and Commercial Codes.
https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/thailand-civil-code-part-3.html#1535

 

Section 1546. A child born of a woman who is not married to a man is deemed to be the legitimate child of such woman.

Section 1547. A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimate by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by the registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court.

Section 1548. When legitimation is applied for by the father, the child and the mother must give consent to the applicant.

In case where the child and the mother do not appear before the Registrar for giving the consent, the Registrar shall notify the child and the mother of the father’s application for registration. If the child or the mother raises no objection or does not give the consent within sixty days after the acceptance of the notification by the child or mother, it is presumed that the child or the mother does not give consent. The period of time shall be extended to one hundred and eighty days in case where the child or the mother has been outside Thailand.

In case where the child or the mother raises an objection that the applicant is not the father, or does not give the consent, or is unable to give the consent, the registration for legitimation must be effected by a judgment of the Court.

After the Court had pronounced a judgment effecting the registration of the legitimation and the judgment has been produced to the registrar for registration, the Registrar shall effect the registration. 

 

 

[Liquorice]

2 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

As the child is 5 you should be able to go to your local amphur and have the child certify that you are their father and that piece of paper should suffice for immigration.

Most Amphoes require the child to be at least 7 years old.

[Liquorice]

15 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

For now, I just gonna fly out and get a new non-o visa, and then extend yearly down south. Leaving Chiang Mai forever within the next 3 months.

You'll have to extend your stay based on retirement, you cannot extend based on Thai child for reasons already explained, unless the Amphoe will allow you to register as the legal Father, or you obtain a Court order legalising you as the legal Father of the child.
Simply being named on the birth certificate does not give you any parental rights and does not mean you are the legal Father of the child.

[CMBob]

37 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

He isn't married, the child was born out of wedlock, therefore under Thai law he isn't recognised as the legal Father, even if his name appears on the birth certificate. Immigration do not accept being named on the birth certificate as evidence of being the Father when not married to the Mother.

Okay, understand that.  What confused me was OP's reference to multiple 60-day extensions granted to him before (only 60-day extensions I'm aware of are based on marriage or being the parent of a Thai child).

[arithai12]

OP, you seem to have some attitude towards the CM IO, perhaps that is not the best way to deal with them. Anyway, to clarify your doubts, you could see a reputable agent. e.g., Star Visa has two locations in CM, I visited once the one behind BigC/Index for child-related issues, they seemed very knowledgeable and professional.

As for your other issues with tax and cannabis, I don't think that moving to another place in Thailand will change much.

[Cardinalblue1958]

18 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Obviously I mean at the end either a 30 or 60 day extension with papers as usual. They just suck in Chiang Mai, I already got hold via contacts of other offices who say it is nonsense to need a court document.

 

For now, I just gonna fly out and get a new non-o visa, and then extend yearly down south. Leaving Chiang Mai forever within the next 3 months.

Why leave b/f the air pollution season? Enjoy the local flavor 

[Tod Daniels]

AFAIK, there are no immigration offices that require the decree of parental rights from family court OR the Amphur document for a foreign father of a thai child who had the child while not married to the thai mother..

That's not a requirement that I have heard of (not even at those bs renegade offices in Nakhon Nowhere that make up their own rules ???? ) <- FWIW the Chiang Mai immigration office is a pretty straight up, no nonsense office that doesn't go out of it's way to "break your balls" when applying for extensions. 

Strange the O/P had the issues they did
BUT
I will concur if they had that attitude with the officers at the C/M office they'd be "trying to push a rope" with them real quick ????

   

[Red Phoenix]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:10 PM, ChaiyaTH said:

Obviously I mean at the end either a 30 or 60 day extension with papers as usual.

When you are in Thailand on a Permission to stay based on a Non Imm O Visa (be it for Retirement or Marriage or any other reason), you cannot apply for a 30-day extension of stay at your local Imm Office, as such 30-day extensions are ONLY for those that entered on a VisaExempt or Tourist Visa.

But when you are married to a Thai national you can ALWAYS apply at your local Imm Office for a 60-day extension of stay for reason of visiting your wife and it doesn't matter on which Visa you entered Thailand (be it VisaExempt, Tourist, Retirement or Marriage). 

[ChaiyaTH]

I have extended this way since he was born, he is now nearly 5. It was never a problem until this extension. I have done this both in Chiang Mai before as well in Bangkok and in the South. I did both 60 day extensions various times as well 1 year extensions twice.

In the south they said it was no problem anyway to convert it to yearly at once, without that document. They wanted a specific court document in CM, entirely new to me.

 

They said that however the rule is not new, they recently enforce it. Makes zero sense to me, as both the ministry of affairs and embassy clearly do not have issues, and also give me non-o visa's based on a child each time. But then I can't extend on that basis? Common, this is a joke!

 

The embassies/consulates say I am legally in my right, and so they give me a non-o visa based on having a Thai child, but then on extensions immigration does not consider it proven.

 

Even the court would make me a legal father, or if i have custody rights or not, does not change the fact I do have the right on the visa based on the fact that I am his biological father, hence one gets this visa based on the birth certificate.

 

I even showed them the previous extensions and stamps, as I never changed a passport since my son was born. They had no answer except that from now on they need that.

 

So now we get married, only for this reason, even we could divorce again right after, as that is likely easier to do, then to do it the other way around with court. Insanity. Next? Tax? Weed gone?

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[bbko]

34 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

But when you are married to a Thai national you can ALWAYS apply at your local Imm Office for a 60-day extension of stay for reason of visiting your wife and it doesn't matter on which Visa you entered Thailand (be it VisaExempt, Tourist, Retirement or Marriage). 

Aren't we only allowed one extension per visa stamp? As in once an extension is given for that visa, you're not allowed a 2nd extension.

[ChaiyaTH]

3 minutes ago, bbko said:

Aren't we only allowed one extension per visa stamp? As in once an extension is given for that visa, you're not allowed a 2nd extension.

As far I know you can do the 60 days first, and then the yearly, as far I know that was also the case on my first yearly extension.

 

In my case I often travelled, certainly in the past. So I often just did the non-o single (90days) + one extension of 60 days. This worked out perfectly fine for me as i just needed it twice a year.

 

I even remember how the CM lady officer told me to prepare the money in the bank etc if i wanted to extend this to yearly after.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, bbko said:

Aren't we only allowed one extension per visa stamp? As in once an extension is given for that visa, you're not allowed a 2nd extension.

Yes, that's correct: When you are on an unbroken chain of Permissions to stay based on the same Non Imm O Visa, you are allowed only one 60-day extension for reason of visiting your wife.  

Note that when you entered VisaExempt or on a Tourist Visa that you can apply once for a 30-day extension of stay as well as once for a 60-day extension of stay for reason of visiting your wife.

[ChaiyaTH]

To also add, I had various people check on it for me, and nobody seems to even have a clear answer. It amazes me really, they also said that what I did in the past according to their computer system was entirely fine. I never heard this from anyone else before too.

 

If I would have been asked this before, I certainly would have taken action previously.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[ChaiyaTH]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

When you are in Thailand on a Permission to stay based on a Non Imm O Visa (be it for Retirement or Marriage or any other reason), you cannot apply for a 30-day extension of stay at your local Imm Office, as such 30-day extensions are ONLY for those that entered on a VisaExempt or Tourist Visa.

But when you are married to a Thai national you can ALWAYS apply at your local Imm Office for a 60-day extension of stay for reason of visiting your wife and it doesn't matter on which Visa you entered Thailand (be it VisaExempt, Tourist, Retirement or Marriage). 

It's the same with a child, you can ALWAYS apply for a 60 day extension, that is also not the point here. The point is that they suddenly ask for new documentation, which they never did before. Nowhere.

 

I think it's also just weird to give someone a non-o child visa, to then say it's not enough with the same documentation for the 60 day extension. But hey, maybe all is even worse, and they now also stopped giving those non-o visa's, I dont know anymore too.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[ChaiyaTH]

10 hours ago, Liquorice said:

You'll have to extend your stay based on retirement, you cannot extend based on Thai child for reasons already explained, unless the Amphoe will allow you to register as the legal Father, or you obtain a Court order legalising you as the legal Father of the child.
Simply being named on the birth certificate does not give you any parental rights and does not mean you are the legal Father of the child.

Retirement? Maybe in 18 years from now. And I can extend on a Thai child, as well I can get the non-o visa based on Thai child. The only thing I suddenly can not do anymore is do 60 day extensions, this after nearly 5 years no issues. We are even all together and present.

 

The fact that everyone is saying something slightly difference is just too funny for words as well, specially knowing this is their daily job, and there are not that many visa types you need to learn. I have to tell them what options there are, only to then get oh yes that is true, to then get a different list of documents in any place. How is this workable really.

 

One of the three immi offices I let my contacts contact even came up with a list of requirements for a yearly extension of marriage, when I asked what I would need with them for a 60 day child extension.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[ChaiyaTH]

Your so transparant Jack, only you do the laughing emoticons. I could almost track it by having a scraper see who is recently browsing and compare that to the changes.

[Liquorice]

3 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

And I can extend on a Thai child, as well I can get the non-o visa based on Thai child.

Not from Thai Immigration.

 

I gave you links to the law and the 3 options available to legitimise yourself as the child's Father.
The rest is up to you.

[bigt3116]

14 hours ago, Tod Daniels said:

AFAIK, there are no immigration offices that require the decree of parental rights from family court OR the Amphur document for a foreign father of a thai child who had the child while not married to the thai mother..

That's not a requirement that I have heard of (not even at those bs renegade offices in Nakhon Nowhere that make up their own rules ???? ) <- FWIW the Chiang Mai immigration office is a pretty straight up, no nonsense office that doesn't go out of it's way to "break your balls" when applying for extensions. 

Strange the O/P had the issues they did
BUT
I will concur if they had that attitude with the officers at the C/M office they'd be "trying to push a rope" with them real quick ????

   

1. Copy of documents proving relationship, such as a marriage certificate, a birth certificate,
   registration of child legitimization, household registration certificate, child adoption registration
   certificate, or other evidence from the government or relevant agency

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?p=14714#604c3aeba1b968fad