Morch Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 45 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: If you had read my post, you would also note that I said extremist factions in Hamas want the eradication of Israel. Having a two state solution might just temper that extremist faction. The entire world agrees that a two state solution is needed, I'm not being crazy... right? Don't jump to condemn people just because their view differs from yours. This is how wars drag on for years, no one is willing to listen to each other. Everyone is very happy sitting in their little corner listening to echos of their own opinion. I think you will have to back that bit about Hamas internal disputes of policy, in order for it to be addressed. Your 'plan' seems to be give Hamas a prize and see if they chill down. Sounds legit. Sounds like how any government would act following such an attack on its civilians. Give terrorists something for nothing and see if it appeases them. Or maybe not. A two state solution does not imply letting Hamas be in charge. Nor will it come (if ever) without ample assurances, provisions and ways to guarantee something of this sort will not happen. I think it is you that does not listen. Seemingly, you value your opinion more that facts. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Morch said: Hamas is not in favor of talks with Israel, peace or sharing the territory. You want to gloss over that, or over the fact that Hamas is widely supported among Palestinians - that's your choice. As for the 'temper' bit, a few points: - When de-facto gaining control of the Gaza Strip, Hamas had a choice between developing it, and investing in the futile violence vs. Israel. One guess. - Given the recent Hamas attack, do you expect Israel to willingly go for a wider scale experiment to test if this was a one off thing? - This is not America, this is not Europe - this is the ME. Action or inaction that are perceived as weakness invite further attacks. When the extreme right in Israel carries out something approaching the Hamas attack, it will be a valid point. And no, citing things that happened back in 1948 is not it - both sides were at it back then too. To Hamas, it looks like Israel does not want to share, so why would they reciprocate? It was Palestinians who were forcefully evicted out of their legally owned properties to form an Israeli state - so is it at all surprising how they feel? Israelis have been doing the same in the West Bank and elsewhere in Gaza, yet despite multiple countries in Europe calling this out as a crime, and labeling the settlements illegal, Israel steams on ahead with forced evictions in courts, groups of Israelis going house to house and beating / killing Arabs out of settlement areas... both sides are guilty. There are two sides to every story, and if you only listen to one side you will fall into the blame spiral. I do not deny the attack on Israel was horrible, disgusting, atrocious, etc. But so has been the Israeli treatment of Arabs. I do not deny that extremist elements in Hamas want the total eradication of Israel, but using this as a pretense to never give them a state of their own only exacerbates the issue. Did you know that when Hamas was formed, it was originally to fight extremist elements in the PIJ? It was a peaceful and charitable organization. Now they are terrorists. Is it inevitable that Netanyahu's right wing party will become terrorists the longer this drags out? How much longer will we play this blame game? When will these two sides be forced to sort it out? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 45 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: Again, same trap. Savagery is savagery. If you asked a mother how they feel about their baby being beheaded by Hamas, and then you ask another mother about their baby being burned alive from falling Israeli bombs I'm sure both mothers would be lamenting the loss of their child. Not the manner in which they were killed. But this is not about how individuals feel. Not about comparing grief. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, Morch said: No. Israel did not declare all of the South of the Gaza Strip a safe zone, but specific areas of. If you can cite clear examples of civilians being hit within them zones, you just might have a point. Also, it would have to be a targeted attack to qualify as something relevant to what you posted. On the contrary, Hamas urged the people to stay in their North Gaza homes, and face the attacks. Even tried to block roads etc. Carry on. I did provide a specific example. Did you not read it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: Did you know that when Hamas was formed, it was originally to fight extremist elements in the PIJ? But surely Palestinians don't have the right to defend themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, Neeranam said: Another war crime? Everyone seems to forget that this is a war crime. It has been labelled as such by several countries and the UN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 35 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: Is that why they are bombing the area they told them to move to? "They followed evacuation orders. An Israeli airstrike killed them the next day." https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html The article doesn't actually say this. It describes people being under attack on the way South, or in the South, but not clearly explicitly mentioning people getting killed in the designated safe zones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, Neeranam said: Another war crime? No 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, Morch said: The article doesn't actually say this. It describes people being under attack on the way South, or in the South, but not clearly explicitly mentioning people getting killed in the designated safe zones. Please read the story. They were 8 miles inside the safe zone. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMojoRisin Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 25 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Are you giving support to the actions of Hamas ? No, but as the UN Secretary General has stated “Hamas’s attacks didn’t happen in a vacuum” Are you giving support to Israel’s indiscriminate killing of over 2000 children? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: Everyone seems to forget that this is a war crime. It has been labelled as such by several countries and the UN. This wasn't a war crime . This was a legitimate strike at Hamas and the people in question got caught in the cross fire Hamas were the target for the strike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, Nick Carter icp said: This wasn't a war crime . This was a legitimate strike at Hamas and the people in question got caught in the cross fire Hamas were the target for the strike Ethnic cleansing https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: Everyone seems to forget that this is a war crime. It has been labelled as such by several countries and the UN. A war crime isn't a war crime just because a Country says it is , it would need to be an actual war crime for it to be a war crime . Do you know what a war crime is ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickleberry Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: This wasn't a war crime . This was a legitimate strike at Hamas and the people in question got caught in the cross fire Hamas were the target for the strike The strikes themselves, on legitimate targets, are NOT war crimes. Let me be clear. The forced removal of over 1 million citizens in a strip of land barely 25 miles long IS a war crime. Not only is it a war crime, but it has placed 2 million people in an area of land with no food, water, power or help. This IS a war crime. Edited October 25, 2023 by Brickleberry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Thorgal said: Ethnic cleansing https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml I suppose that Hamas could be classified as an ethnic group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proton Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Thorgal said: Ethnic cleansing https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml Hamas are not an ethnic group, they are terrorists 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Brickleberry said: The strikes themselves, on legitimate targets, are NOT war crimes. Let me be clear. The forced removal of over 1 million citizens in a strip of land barely 25 miles long IS a war crime. Not only is it a war crime, but it has placed 2 million people in an area of land with no food, water, power or help. This IS a war crime. No one was forced to go anywhere though , they were just advised to go , so no war crime there Israel is not obliged to supply Palestinians with commodities , like food and water , so no war crime there 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 I think the only realistic solution is to move the UN from New York to Palestine. Irael can be compelled to donate some of the land they have stolen to form "no country" zone (similar to the DC in the US) where all counties are seen as equals under the law. Enough of Israel and the US ruling the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 15 minutes ago, Yellowtail said: No How is killing civilians in an area they were told to move to not a war crime? Come on man, you can't be serious? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 46 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: Yes, they were staying in a safe area - outside the evacuation zone means precisely that. They made it to the south. For your post to be correct, they would have written 'inside' the evacuation zone. If you are inside the place you have been ordered to evacuate, then you are not safe. No. The IDF spread clear information about specific designated safe zones with maps and all that. This was linked earlier in the topic. Multiple times. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: The strikes themselves, on legitimate targets, are NOT war crimes. Let me be clear. Let me be clearer: The strikes themselves, intended for legitimate targets, are NOT war crimes. 6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: The forced removal of over 1 million citizens in a strip of land barely 25 miles long IS a war crime. Not only is it a war crime, but it has placed 2 million people in an area of land with no food, water, power or help. This IS a war crime. Do you have any real evidence that the area has no food, water, power or help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Neeranam said: How is killing civilians in an area they were told to move to not a war crime? Come on man, you can't be serious? Come on man, we're trying to be serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 27 minutes ago, Neeranam said: But surely Palestinians don't have the right to defend themselves. The Hamas attack was not about 'defense', and they did not have a 'right' to carry it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, Neeranam said: How is killing civilians in an area they were told to move to not a war crime? Come on man, you can't be serious? Its the Palestinians who deliberately killed civilians , go look in the mirror for war crimes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Morch Posted October 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2023 24 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said: No, but as the UN Secretary General has stated “Hamas’s attacks didn’t happen in a vacuum” Are you giving support to Israel’s indiscriminate killing of over 2000 children? Are you citing Hamas casualty figures as verified facts? Thought you were all about accuracy. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 21 minutes ago, Brickleberry said: The strikes themselves, on legitimate targets, are NOT war crimes. Let me be clear. The forced removal of over 1 million citizens in a strip of land barely 25 miles long IS a war crime. Not only is it a war crime, but it has placed 2 million people in an area of land with no food, water, power or help. This IS a war crime. No doubt, a better option would have been for them to stay put, as Hamas leadership urged. As for the no food, no water and all that - it's been two weeks now. If that was true they'd all be dead by now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMojoRisin Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 21 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: A war crime isn't a war crime just because a Country says it is , it would need to be an actual war crime for it to be a war crime . Do you know what a war crime is ? Aren’t you the guy that was declaring that Israel hasn’t committed war crimes because a single lawyer said so? Surely the UN carries more weight than the young lady lawyer who is the head of the UK Lawyers for Israel group…, don’t you think? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMojoRisin Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 51 minutes ago, Jingthing said: Moral clarity. The Hamas apologists (and worse) need to start to recognize evil and that you can't make peace with evil. Where / who are the Hamas apologists? Nothing I’ve read posted here has even comes close enough to be misconstrued as supportive of Hamas. Let’s do try to be honest please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, MrMojoRisin said: Where / who are the Hamas apologists? Nothing I’ve read posted here has even comes close enough to be misconstrued as supportive of Hamas. Let’s do try to be honest please. 👋 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jingthing Posted October 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said: Where / who are the Hamas apologists? Nothing I’ve read posted here has even comes close enough to be misconstrued as supportive of Hamas. Let’s do try to be honest please. You've got to be kidding, gaslighting, or both. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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