Whats the Protocol if denied entry.

[MangoKorat]

5 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

You can not be deported if denied entry! You clearly do not understand deportation and denied entry are totally different.

I understand the difference very well - what I don't understand is what you are arguing about. The point is that someone denied entry can appeal. If they appeal they will be detained until their appeal is heard.  If they lose the appeal they will be sent out of the country, either back to where they came from or to their home country.  Either way they will not be staying in Thailand - whether or not you choose to call that deportation or denied entry makes no difference, they will be leaving.  Your semantics are pointless.

[MangoKorat]

6 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

All nonsense.

You would not be stamped in for 7 days.

You are not deported.

You can be refused entry.

As pointed out already, you are kept in Detention holding rooms.

Pictures of that already posted

And you know that how? I would suggest that immigration can do whatever they like but really, I don't understand the point of your argument, the end result is the same.

 

I talked to someone around 10 years ago who was told he was not going to be allowed in as it was deemed he should have been entering on a visa.  He called his lawyer who spoke to immigration.  He was then taken somewhere - I presume the holding cells you mention whilst his lawyer spoke to someone else in immigration.  After which he was stamped in for 2 weeks whilst his lawyer argued his case.  I presume that meant some form of appeal.

 

I know this because I spoke to this guy outside the airport at what was then a smoking area. He had arrived in Thailand to get divorced and was told that as he was technically visiting his wife, he should have had a visa. At that time I had just been told that I was only being allowed in as an exception because I should also have obtained a visa. from his description, I think we both went to the same booth and were questioned by the same female I.O.

 

I was married at the time and had entered visa exempt because my Non O had expired. I visited every 8 weeks and stayed for 2 weeks.  I didn't see the point of obtaining another Non O as I only stayed for 2 weeks.  I had entered around 3 times visa exempt after my visa expired. I was given a hard time but after speaking to my wife on the phone, the I.O. told me I was being allowed in but that would be the last time without a visa. 

 

I had no reason to doubt what this guy told me and I believe that I.O.'s can virtually do as they please. They often ignore the rules and do as they wish on other matters but sometimes end up with egg on their face when faced with a lawyer.  Korat immigration have for example, lost 2 cases in court where they have made up their own version of the rules.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I wouldn't expect a wrench to know about the passengers & policy, but feel free to disagree with someone WHO DOES.

Obviously you do not know what you think you know. This is what you said

 

"as then they would be responsible for providing your return transport." 

 

I read the conditions of carriage a long time ago and did not see anywhere the airline accepting responsibility for anything.

This is how BA put it, maybe different if you buy your ticket from IATA.

13a) General

13a1) You (not us) must:

• check the relevant entry requirements, including government health policies and requirements for any country you are visiting and ensure that you meet all applicable entry requirements, including health mitigation measures and
• present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents needed for your journey.

13a2) You must obey all laws, regulations and orders of any countries you fly from, enter or travel through or in which you are a transit passenger.

13a3) We will not be liable to you if:

• you do not have all necessary passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents
• your passport, visa, health certificates or other travel documents are invalid or out of date or
• you have not obeyed all relevant laws.

 

13b) You must present to us valid passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents

Before you travel, you must present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents you need for your journey. If we ask, you must:

• allow us to take and keep copies of them and
• deposit your passport or equivalent travel document with a member of the crew of the aircraft for safe custody until the end of the flight.

 

 

13c) What happens when you are refused entry to a country

 If you are refused entry to a country, you must pay:

• any fine, penalty or charge imposed on us by the government concerned
• any detention costs we are charged
• the fare for transporting you back to your place of departure and
• any other costs we reasonably pay or agree to pay.

We will not refund to you the fare for carrying you to the place where you were denied entry.

 

13d) You must repay us fines, detention costs and other charges

If we have to pay any fine, penalty, fee, charge or costs (such as detention costs) because you have failed to obey any laws or regulations, or other travel requirements of the country to which you have travelled to or to produce the necessary documents needed by that country, you must repay us the amount we have paid as a result. We may take this amount from the value of any unused part of your ticket, or any of your money we have in our possession.

 

13e) Customs inspection

If necessary, you must be present when your baggage is inspected by customs or other government officials. We will not be liable to you for any damage you suffer in the course of an inspection or because you are not present.

 

13f) Screening

You must allow us, government officials, airport officials, or other carriers to carry out security screening of you or your baggage and health screening checks as required.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-us/information/legal/british-airways/general-conditions-of-carriage#

[Lemsta69]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

maybe different if you buy your ticket from IATA

Even I know that IATA don't sell tickets LOL

[impulse]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Obviously you do not know what you think you know. This is what you said

 

"as then they would be responsible for providing your return transport." 

 

I read the conditions of carriage a long time ago and did not see anywhere the airline accepting responsibility for anything.

This is how BA put it, maybe different if you buy your ticket from IATA.

13a) General

13a1) You (not us) must:

• check the relevant entry requirements, including government health policies and requirements for any country you are visiting and ensure that you meet all applicable entry requirements, including health mitigation measures and
• present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents needed for your journey.

13a2) You must obey all laws, regulations and orders of any countries you fly from, enter or travel through or in which you are a transit passenger.

13a3) We will not be liable to you if:

• you do not have all necessary passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents
• your passport, visa, health certificates or other travel documents are invalid or out of date or
• you have not obeyed all relevant laws.

 

13b) You must present to us valid passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents

Before you travel, you must present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents you need for your journey. If we ask, you must:

• allow us to take and keep copies of them and
• deposit your passport or equivalent travel document with a member of the crew of the aircraft for safe custody until the end of the flight.

 

 

13c) What happens when you are refused entry to a country

 If you are refused entry to a country, you must pay:

• any fine, penalty or charge imposed on us by the government concerned
• any detention costs we are charged
• the fare for transporting you back to your place of departure and
• any other costs we reasonably pay or agree to pay.

We will not refund to you the fare for carrying you to the place where you were denied entry.

 

13d) You must repay us fines, detention costs and other charges

If we have to pay any fine, penalty, fee, charge or costs (such as detention costs) because you have failed to obey any laws or regulations, or other travel requirements of the country to which you have travelled to or to produce the necessary documents needed by that country, you must repay us the amount we have paid as a result. We may take this amount from the value of any unused part of your ticket, or any of your money we have in our possession.

 

13e) Customs inspection

If necessary, you must be present when your baggage is inspected by customs or other government officials. We will not be liable to you for any damage you suffer in the course of an inspection or because you are not present.

 

13f) Screening

You must allow us, government officials, airport officials, or other carriers to carry out security screening of you or your baggage and health screening checks as required.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-us/information/legal/british-airways/general-conditions-of-carriage#

That's your agreement with BA.  That's not the same agreement BA has with the airport, or the authorities.  BA can seek reimbursement from you, but they can't decline to to provide return transport, even if you can't pay.

 

[sandyf]

4 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

Even I know that IATA don't sell tickets LOL

Apologies if the comment went over your head.

[sandyf]

6 minutes ago, impulse said:

That's your agreement with BA.  That's not the same agreement BA has with the airport, or the authorities.  BA can seek reimbursement from you, but they can't decline to to provide return transport, even if you can't pay.

 

You can back that up and show how long the authorities would wait for a seat to become available.

It is not all about the money,  availability is a major factor.

In the TV programe, the IO distinctly tells the detainee they will be put on the next available flight. You can bet your life that will have been vetted by the lawyers before being aired.

As  I said before the BA flight pre pandemic was turnaround, about an hour disembarkation/embarkation. Do people really think the aircraft would wait at the gate to see if immigration were going to deny someone entry.

Fairly obvious the airline that brings you would be the first port of call, but not the only way out.

When it comes to responsibility, that lies with the passenger that ticked the box agreeing to the conditions of carriage.

[Lemsta69]

25 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Apologies if the comment went over your head.

Gotcha. No worries, you can't catch 'em all.

[JimTripper]

Who cares anout the protocol. you're there with your credit card, debit card and phone. anytime your allowed you can get a one way ticket to paradise.

[Chris Daley]

Pay the fine and 15 recent photos.

[Tod Daniels]

4 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

 The point is that someone denied entry can appeal. If they appeal they will be detained until their appeal is heard. 

From what I understand, appeals to a denial of entry take three business days to be decided.

 

That means you sit in the lock up at the airport while you wait for the decision.

 

Of the many, MANY people I have spoken to over the years who were at the airport being denied entry, I know of only three who appealed their denial, two were successful and were allowed in while one was sent back to where he had previously came from, KL I think.

 

It's the sitting at the airport lockup for three business days that put people off of filing an appeal on a denial of entry.

[MangoKorat]

28 minutes ago, Tod Daniels said:

It's the sitting at the airport lockup for three business days that put people off of filing an appeal on a denial of entry.

Yes, I'd mentioned the same earlier.  I've also myself and heard of a few people who have argued their case at immigration and the I.O. has backed down.

 

This is why I always carry the required 20,000 baht or equivalent. If they want to deny you entry and you don't have that, you have a problem. They will simply use the lack of 20k and it matters not if their original reasons were invalid. they have you on a clear rule of entry.

 

I would guess that the vast majority of people don't carry 20k with them and there's rarely a problem.  However, its likely to cost a lot more than 20k to pay for a ticket out + the other things you may have lost through denied entry. I don't care what others say/do. Its not a problem to carry 20k.

[Marky Mark Mark]

14 hours ago, JimTripper said:

Who cares anout the protocol. you're there with your credit card, debit card and phone. anytime your allowed you can get a one way ticket to paradise.

I Care.  

 

Very informative anwers ive gotten here.

[bigt3116]

19 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

If they lose the appeal they will be sent out of the country,

You can't be sent out of a country you never entered !!

 

Clueless

[MangoKorat]

9 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

You can't be sent out of a country you never entered !!

 

Clueless

Listen, we have enough keyboard warriors on here, its not big and its not clever, you simply make yourself look like an A Hole. Don't call people names you wouldn't dare call them to their face.

 

As I told you before - that's just semantics. Obviously you don't understand what that means - Google it.

 

Technically you haven't entered but the reality is that you are there. And, also in reality land, where most of us live, you can be sent out. Stop splitting hairs in a pathetic attempt to look clever.  The reality in terms of what happens to you is exactly the same!

[BritTim]

11 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

As I told you before - that's just semantics. Obviously you don't understand what that means - Google it.

I am in sympathy with much of what you wrote, but the difference between deportation and denial of entry is absolutely huge. To a large degree the differences are enshrined in international law, though the details (especially on deportation) can vary a bit from country to country.

[MangoKorat]

11 hours ago, BritTim said:

I am in sympathy with much of what you wrote, but the difference between deportation and denial of entry is absolutely huge. To a large degree the differences are enshrined in international law, though the details (especially on deportation) can vary a bit from country to country.

Thank you for a reasoned argument - unlike out keyboard name callers.

 

I must disagree though - in real life terms.  I fully understand in legal and technical terms, there is a world of difference but its mainly just in status.

 

For the purposes of the OP's original question and my earlier posts in relation to it, I don't see any difference in terms of what actually happens on the day.

 

I accept that I wrongly thought you were taken to IDC if denied entry but wished to appeal but in terms of the OP's question, there's no difference. If he was denied entry he'd be sent out. If he wished to appeal he'd be detained and if he lost his appeal - he'd be sent out.

 

I do fully understand the difference between denial and deportation - legal and technical. 

 

Someone who has been deported could possibly be more sure of their next entry than someone who has been denied entry. With a deportation, its usually a punishment or part of one and you are usually given a time period after which you will be able to enter on normal terms.

 

Someone who has been denied entry - and when we are talking about Thailand, that's usually because of their entry history, has no idea whether or not they will have problems on their next attempt.

 

But in either case - your entire entry/departure history is available to the I.O. when you attempt an entry and it will be scrutinised at the time.

 

I've seen the amount of notes Thai immigration have on their screens when you hand them your passport ('I had plenty of time to do so whilst the I.O. was on the phone to my wife) so I'm pretty sure that a denial of entry is flagged up - just as a deportation would be.  They actually have a field that tells them the amount of entries in the last 12 months so all this flicking through your passport pages that the I.O.s love to do before telling you you've "come too mut" is just for show.  When I saw the screen I was amazed to see all my old passports - including two that I'd held at the same time.  This was before biometrics but they'd managed to link the two.

 

So just to set the record straight:

 

OP, I apologise for making incorrect statements. If you are denied entry you will be held airside at the airport whilst you either appeal or accept the denial and arrangements are made to send you out of the country.

 

I would just add that if you decide to appeal, it is vitally important that you refuse to sign anything the I.O. puts in front of you.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I seem to remember that people have stated they are presented with a document, written in Thai that basically states you accept you have not met the entry conditions. Make sure you have 20k baht or the equivalent in another widely used currency with you - not just available in your bank account.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by MangoKorat

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Thank you for a reasoned argument - unlike out keyboard name callers.

 

I must disagree though - in real life terms.  I fully understand in legal and technical terms, there is a world of difference but its mainly just in status.

 

For the purposes of the OP's original question and my earlier posts in relation to it, I don't see any difference in terms of what actually happens on the day.

 

I accept that I wrongly thought you were taken to IDC if denied entry but wished to appeal but in terms of the OP's question, there's no difference. If he was denied entry he'd be sent out. If he wished to appeal he'd be detained and if he lost his appeal - he'd be sent out.

 

I do fully understand the difference between denial and deportation - legal and technical. 

 

Someone who has been deported could possibly be more sure of their next entry than someone who has been denied entry. With a deportation, its usually a punishment or part of one and you are usually given a time period after which you will be able to enter on normal terms.

 

Someone who has been denied entry - and when we are talking about Thailand, that's usually because of their entry history, has no idea whether or not they will have problems on their next attempt.

 

But in either case - your entire entry/departure history is available to the I.O. when you attempt and entry and it will be scrutinised at the time.

 

I've seen the amount of notes Thai immigration have on their screens when you hand them your passport ('I had plenty of time to do so whilst the I.O. was on the phone to my wife) so I'm pretty sure that a denial of entry is flagged up - just as a deportation would be.  They actually have a field that tells them the amount of entries in the last 12 months so all this flicking through your passport pages that the I.O.s love to do before telling you you've "come too mut" is just for show.  When I saw the screem I was amazed to see all my old passports - including two that I'd held at the same time.  This was before biometrics but they'd managed to link the two.

 

So just to set the record straight:

 

OP, I apologise for making incorrect statements. If you are denied entry you will be held airside at the airport whilst you either appeal or accept the denial and arrangements are made to send you out of the country.

 

I would just add that if you decide to appeal, it is vitally important that you refuse to sign anything the I.O. puts in front of you.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I seem to remember that people have stated they are presented with a document, written in Thai that basically states you accept you have not met the entry conditions. Make sure you have 20k baht or the equivalent in another widely used currency with you - not just available in your bank account.

Very short summary:

Denied entry: you are held airside at the airport for a short period until the airline that brought you to Thailand removes you. In principle you can travel anywhere.

Deportation: you are held in the Immigration Detention Centre until your deportation can be arranged. Any airline or destination country where you plan to go must by international law be informed that you are being deported and can refuse to carry/admit you. In practice, in almost all cases, you are forced back to your home country on your nation's national carrier who are obliged at accept you. The airline may insist on additional on board security, such as an accompanying guard, as a condition of flying you (at your expense).

[MangoKorat]

2 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Very short summary:

Denied entry: you are held airside at the airport for a short period until the airline that brought you to Thailand removes you. In principle you can travel anywhere.

Deportation: you are held in the Immigration Detention Centre until your deportation can be arranged. Any airline or destination country where you plan to go must by international law be informed that you are being deported and can refuse to carry/admit you. In practice, in almost all cases, you are forced back to your home country on your nation's national carrier who are obliged at accept you. The airline may insist on additional on board security, such as an accompanying guard, as a condition of flying you (at your expense).

No argument with any of that but as I say, I was commenting in relation to the OP's question.