Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

And the Israeli response had no intent on killing innocent Palestinians, only on eliminating the Hamas terrorists, yeah right, you cannot have it that way as both parties are as bad as one another, killing innocents on either side is a International War Crime. 

And the Israeli response had no intent on killing innocent Palestinians

 

No, if they wanted to do that they would have killed far more

[Jeff the Chef]

30 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Exactly! You're a cook right jeff? If you served fish and someone choked to death on a bone, that would be exactly the same as is you beat them to death with a meat mallet, correct? 

 

Just want to make sure I understand you correctly. 

Women are Cooks, Men are Chefs, lets get that right first.

 

Your next analogy is a joke, right?

 

If I cook a fish and whoever eats it dies from choking on a bone it has nothing to do with whoever cooked it, but if I beat them to death with a Meat Mallet that is pre-meditated murder, hardly the same thing, but nice try.

[Jeff the Chef]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

And the Israeli response had no intent on killing innocent Palestinians

 

No, if they wanted to do that they would have killed far more

Really, your taking one sentence of a post and ignoring the rest of said post, how very magnanimous of you.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Really, your taking one sentence of a post and ignoring the rest of said post, how very magnanimous of you.

I quoted your whole post................lol

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So we agree that both sides are committing war crimes but the Israeli's, not so much according to you?

Which ever way you cut this crimes against humanity whether it is the Hamas raid on the 7th or the Israeli response since is still war crimes.

 

The Hamas has definitely committed war crimes. There's no debate on that. It is less clearly obvious (in the legal sense) that Israel did. I think that there's a fair chance they did - but it's not really their hallmark, as is with Hamas.

 

Tossing terms about is great, but misleading. Crimes against humanity and war crimes are not exactly the same thing. War crimes, I think, are more prevalent, in general. For example, the Hamas attack sans the atrocities committed, would be a war crime. If the atrocities are included, it's probably in the category of crimes against humanity.

 

You can keep calling things 'war crimes' but that doesn't make them so. That war is ugly, and many bad things happen doesn't mean all of them are legally forbidden.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

What the heck are you on about? I have no idea what this trolling lark is you're on about, I'm replying to posts that I consider to be unfair to the whole situation, if that's trolling so be it, but if people say things that is all biased to one side their going to get a reply, as I said before neither side is a angel in any of this. 

 

You commented on something I posted, interpreted it out of context.

The above is the context of my post.

I'm not even the one who brought up the issue of 'scale' etc.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

And the Israeli response had no intent on killing innocent Palestinians, only on eliminating the Hamas terrorists, yeah right, you cannot have it that way as both parties are as bad as one another, killing innocents on either side is a International War Crime. 

 

Intent would be deliberately targeting civilians. And yes, it is legally allowed (under various circumstances) to attack terrorist/military targets even if civilians are expected to be hurt. As for your repeated use of 'war crime' - that line from The Princess Bride applies: "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means".

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Women are Cooks, Men are Chefs, lets get that right first.

So all men the cook are chefs, got it. 

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Your next analogy is a joke, right?

No, it's the same as your claim that hamas killing babies and raping women is the same as collateral damage from bombings. 

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

If I cook a fish and whoever eats it dies from choking on a bone it has nothing to do with whoever cooked it, but if I beat them to death with a Meat Mallet that is pre-meditated murder, hardly the same thing, but nice try.

But both people are dead. Per your claims about Israel, it's the same. 

 

What if three people died of choking on bones you left in the fish, and you only beat one to death with a meat-mallet, does that make it clearer for you? 

 

is killing three people not worse than killing one? 

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

So all men the cook are chefs, got it. 

No, it's the same as your claim that hamas killing babies and raping women is the same as collateral damage from bombings. 

But both people are dead. Per your claims about Israel, it's the same. 

 

What if three people died of choking on bones you left in the fish, and you only beat one to death with a meat-mallet, does that make it clearer for you? 

 

is killing three people not worse than killing one? 

Please reread your replies, the first one makes no-sense as I said and this is a fact, the male of the species are Chefs and the female of the species are Cooks, always have been always will be, English grammar can be difficult for some.

 

Your next quote:

 

"No, it's the same as your claim that hamas killing babies and raping women is the same as collateral damage from bombings."

 

I think we all agree the Hamas atrocities from the 7th are nothing more than War Crimes/Crimes against Humanity. 1400 lives and however many hostages taken and not accounted for I include in the above statement ref: War Crimes/Crimes against Humanity.

What you're having a problem with is that I feel the same about the Israeli bombing/shelling of the Gaza strip where I feel they have a legitimate right to go after Hamas but not at the expense of the general population of Palestine which do not all support Hamas.

 

Your last quote:

 

"What if three people died of choking on bones you left in the fish, and you only beat one to death with a meat-mallet, does that make it clearer for you? 

 

is killing three people not worse than killing one?" 

 

If 3 people die from choking on bones in fish I cooked what has that to do with the Chef/Cook who cooked said fish?

Then as you say, if I then beat one to death with a meat-mallet that only makes me guilty of murder and has nothing to do with the fish preparation or the fact that as you said 3 people died on the bones through choking.

I hope that makes it clearer for you.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Please reread your replies, the first one makes no-sense as I said and this is a fact, the male of the species are Chefs and the female of the species are Cooks, always have been always will be, English grammar can be difficult for some.

 

Your next quote:

 

"No, it's the same as your claim that hamas killing babies and raping women is the same as collateral damage from bombings."

 

I think we all agree the Hamas atrocities from the 7th are nothing more than War Crimes/Crimes against Humanity. 1400 lives and however many hostages taken and not accounted for I include in the above statement ref: War Crimes/Crimes against Humanity.

What you're having a problem with is that I feel the same about the Israeli bombing/shelling of the Gaza strip where I feel they have a legitimate right to go after Hamas but not at the expense of the general population of Palestine which do not all support Hamas.

 

Your last quote:

 

"What if three people died of choking on bones you left in the fish, and you only beat one to death with a meat-mallet, does that make it clearer for you? 

 

is killing three people not worse than killing one?" 

 

If 3 people die from choking on bones in fish I cooked what has that to do with the Chef/Cook who cooked said fish?

Then as you say, if I then beat one to death with a meat-mallet that only makes me guilty of murder and has nothing to do with the fish preparation or the fact that as you said 3 people died on the bones through choking.

I hope that makes it clearer for you.

Your first fact is wrong:

 

"as I said and this is a fact, the male of the species are Chefs and the female of the species are Cooks, always have been always will be"

 

Which doesn't say much about the rest of your post

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Your first fact is wrong:

 

"as I said and this is a fact, the male of the species are Chefs and the female of the species are Cooks, always have been always will be"

 

Which doesn't say much about the rest of your post

 

 

Let me assure you when I went to Chefs College back in the 1960's if you called the chef a cook whatever he had in his hand would be flying over the kitchen in your direction, I will agree with you that nowadays with the more popular female to male leveling up as in political correctness that is now not so much the case but nevertheless back in the day before female emancipation or whatever you want to call it that was not the case.

 

As for the rest of my posts you wouldn't agree with anything I said but then that is not my problem.

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Let me assure you when I went to Chefs College back in the 1960's if you called the chef a cook whatever he had in his hand would be flying over the kitchen in your direction, I will agree with you that nowadays with the more popular female to male leveling up as in political correctness that is now not so much the case but nevertheless back in the day before female emancipation or whatever you want to call it that was not the case.

 

As for the rest of my posts you wouldn't agree with anything I said but then that is not my problem.

A chef is a chef and a cook is a cook, there is no female word to differentiate. You claimed it "always will be" That's why I pulled you up. Because obviously that was nonsense, so no I did not read the rest of your post.

[Jeff the Chef]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

A chef is a chef and a cook is a cook, there is no female word to differentiate. You claimed it "always will be" That's why I pulled you up. Because obviously that was nonsense, so no I did not read the rest of your post.

Whatever, not my problem and thanks for all the fish.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Jeff the Chef said:

Whatever, not my problem and thanks for all the fish.

 

Not a problem for me either just like to stick to honesty and facts.

[Morch]

Israel-Hamas war: Macron calls for international coalition against Hamas

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/24/israel-hamas-war-macron-calls-for-international-coalition-against-hamas_6199216_4.html

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

36 minutes ago, Morch said:

Israel-Hamas war: Macron calls for international coalition against Hamas

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/24/israel-hamas-war-macron-calls-for-international-coalition-against-hamas_6199216_4.html

 

 

 

Good news that. 

[JBChiangRai]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:50 PM, bobbin said:

JBCR.. you and I have crossed swords on the Cannabis in Thailand issue but on this much more important issue I stand with you. Funnily enough, some of your allies in the Cannabis discussion oppose you in this topic.

 

Anybody trying to avoid the imposition of collective punishment will have my support. This is not an endorsement of the truly evil actions by some of the Hamas gunmen. I believe most of those beasts are dead already. One pundit noted that there seemed to be 2 groups in the Hamas attack. The first group, that did most of the evil acts carried no water, food or medical supplies. The second, "snatch" group had these supplies. The first group were literally suicidal and for most their wish was granted.

 

I have no issue with Israeli’s or Palestinians.  I have worked with the Israeli’s in the area of security over many years both directly and as customers of my software house, and that work has touched the lives of any of you who have ever used Suvarnabhumi.  I count many Israeli’s as friends, some of them are very unhappy with the Israeli gov’ts response.

 

This is my opinion FWIW

 

Hamas are terrorists

The Gazan civilians must be considered innocent

The Israeli citizens must be considered innocent

The Israeli gov’ts response to the appalling attack by Hamas terrorists is not proportionate and looks more like bloody revenge than a plan with a clear route to the objective of rescuing their kidnapped citizens.

 

Israel must attempt to get its kidnapped citizens back, but not this way. The collateral damage is not proportionate to the rescue of 200 citizens .  It seems more proportionate to bloody revenge & collective punishment than rescue.  

 

You never send teams into a hostage situation unless you know where they are, have a proper plan with  a realistic chance of retrieving them with minimal collateral damage.

 

I don’t believe the Israeli Gov’t knows where the hostages are. 

 

Whilst condemning Hamas and what they have done, I agree with the UN Chief that what is happening in Gaza is a clear violation of International Law.

 

The last I read the citizens killed in Gaza was approaching 6,000 with 4 hostages freed by Hamas.  Wholly unproportionate to the rescue of 200 hostages, where will it end? How many civilians have to die? 10,000? 100,000? All of them?

 

IMHO, It is highly likely most of the hostages will get killed this way.

 

I don’t offer a solution, because it would just deflect from my opinion that this one is wrong and will indoctrinate young Palestinians into growing up hating Israel and wanting to kill them, it’s a circle that has to be broken.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I have no issue with Israeli’s or Palestinians.  I have worked with the Israeli’s in the area of security over many years both directly and as customers of my software house, and that work has touched the lives of any of you who have ever used Suvarnabhumi.  I count many Israeli’s as friends, some of them are very unhappy with the Israeli gov’ts response.

 

This is my opinion FWIW

 

Hamas are terrorists

The Gazan civilians must be considered innocent

The Israeli citizens must be considered innocent

The Israeli gov’ts response to the appalling attack by Hamas terrorists is not proportionate and looks more like bloody revenge than a plan with a clear route to the objective of rescuing their kidnapped citizens.

 

Israel must attempt to get its kidnapped citizens back, but not this way. The collateral damage is not proportionate to the rescue of 200 citizens .  It seems more proportionate to bloody revenge & collective punishment than rescue.  

 

You never send teams into a hostage situation unless you know where they are, have a proper plan with  a realistic chance of retrieving them with minimal collateral damage.

 

I don’t believe the Israeli Gov’t knows where the hostages are.  by

 

Whilst condemning Hamas and what they have done, I agree with the UN Chief that what is happening in Gaza is a clear violation of International Law.

 

The last I read the citizens killed in Gaza was approaching 6,000 with 4 hostages freed by Hamas.  Wholly unproportionate to the rescue of 200 hostages, where will it end? How many civilians have to die? 10,000? 100,000? All of them?

 

IMHO, It is highly likely most of the hostages will get killed this way.

 

I don’t offer a solution, because it would just deflect from my opinion that this one is wrong and will indoctrinate young Palestinians into growing up hating Israel and wanting to kill them, it’s a circle that has to be broken.

 

You offer that the purpose of the Israeli attacks is either rescuing the hostages or revenge. This ignores what Israeli decision makers say - that the main thrust of the actions taken is toward eliminating (well, realistically, crippling) Hamas as a direct threat. Also, it's not just about the hostages - Israel took massive casualties as well, and in a way that merits (IMO) an over the top response. This is the ME, and whether it seems unreasonable or offensive to some, showing anything perceived as weakness vs. an adversary is often interpreted as an invitation for further aggression.

 

Of course, this doesn't do much to break the cycle of violence - but the implied comments on this (not necessarily by you) seem to suggest an alternative. My own take is that, by now, the best that could be hoped for is not so much peaceful co-existence, but at best, some sort of 'not war' (intentionally nor using a more proper specific term, as to not get dragged to semantic arguments), accompanied by strict security measures, and clear penalties for breaching it. Even if this was to start today, it would take, years, decades even for sentiments to change.

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You offer that the purpose of the Israeli attacks is either rescuing the hostages or revenge. This ignores what Israeli decision makers say - that the main thrust of the actions taken is toward eliminating (well, realistically, crippling) Hamas as a direct threat. Also, it's not just about the hostages - Israel took massive casualties as well, and in a way that merits (IMO) an over the top response. This is the ME, and whether it seems unreasonable or offensive to some, showing anything perceived as weakness vs. an adversary is often interpreted as an invitation for further aggression.

 

Of course, this doesn't do much to break the cycle of violence - but the implied comments on this (not necessarily by you) seem to suggest an alternative. My own take is that, by now, the best that could be hoped for is not so much peaceful co-existence, but at best, some sort of 'not war' (intentionally nor using a more proper specific term, as to not get dragged to semantic arguments), accompanied by strict security measures, and clear penalties for breaching it. Even if this was to start today, it would take, years, decades even for sentiments to change.

I think it’s fanciful thinking by the Israeli Gov’t that they can denude Hamas for any specific length of time with their actions, and we all know that what people say and what they mean aren’t always the same thing.

 

IMHO, the only thing that will denude Hamas is the will of the Palestinian people.  The Israeli Gov’t needs to find a solution that appeals to the Gazan people’s hearts and minds and that won’t happen overnight.

 

This violence will only fuel Hamas or their successors & inflames the Arab world in general.

 

I still believe revenge is the principal motive here, I also believe Israel will annex part of Gaza.

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think it’s fanciful thinking by the Israeli Gov’t that they can denude Hamas for any specific length of time with their actions, and we all know that what people say and what they mean aren’t always the same thing.

 

IMHO, the only thing that will denude Hamas is the will of the Palestinian people.  The Israeli Gov’t needs to find a solution that appeals to the Gazan people’s hearts and minds and that won’t happen overnight.

 

This violence will only fuel Hamas or their successors & inflames the Arab world in general.

 

I still believe revenge is the principal motive here, I also believe Israel will annex part of Gaza.

 

I have no idea what exactly you mean by 'denude', in this instance. I have acknowledged that Israeli leadership statements on this are overreaching and unrealistic (for political reasons, no doubt) - but that achieving a limited version of said policy, is possible, but by no means easy or simple.

 

Hamas could be hit strongly enough to render it a non-threat (or at least not a serious one) for years to come. It can be physically uprooted and denied access to a secure base of operations on Israel's doorstep. This has been done before in other instances (PLO, AQ, IS). Such action is not aimed at resolving the entire conflict, but address an acute current emergency and prevent it from reoccurring in the near future.

 

And again - you and others keep painting things as if there's only one side who needs to do something constructive in order to solve things. There's very little offered on what the Palestinians side could or should be doing to promote a state of things more favorable for their cause. I do not subscribe to this wholesale letting-off-the-hook thing.

 

You can believe whatever you like. I'm sure many, or even most, Palestinians will continue to believe Israel bombed that hospital too. Beliefs over facts and reality is part of what is fueling this.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I have no idea what exactly you mean by 'denude', in this instance. I have acknowledged that Israeli leadership statements on this are overreaching and unrealistic (for political reasons, no doubt) - but that achieving a limited version of said policy, is possible, but by no means easy or simple.

 

Hamas could be hit strongly enough to render it a non-threat (or at least not a serious one) for years to come. It can be physically uprooted and denied access to a secure base of operations on Israel's doorstep. This has been done before in other instances (PLO, AQ, IS). Such action is not aimed at resolving the entire conflict, but address an acute current emergency and prevent it from reoccurring in the near future.

 

And again - you and others keep painting things as if there's only one side who needs to do something constructive in order to solve things. There's very little offered on what the Palestinians side could or should be doing to promote a state of things more favorable for their cause. I do not subscribe to this wholesale letting-off-the-hook thing.

 

You can believe whatever you like. I'm sure many, or even most, Palestinians will continue to believe Israel bombed that hospital too. Beliefs over facts and reality is part of what is fueling this.

Denude means to strip or make bare.

 

I think we both agree violence leads to violence and hatred.  Someone has to break that cycle.

 

I don’t agree with wholesale letting off either, there has to be a quid pro quo of some sort, but not massacring innocent civilians.

 

The likely outcome at the moment will be the hostages killed and the next generation of Palestinian children growing up wanting Jihad with Israel.

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Denude means to strip or make bare.

 

I think we both agree violence leads to violence and hatred.  Someone has to break that cycle.

 

I don’t agree with wholesale letting off either, there has to be a quid pro quo of some sort, but not massacring innocent civilians.

 

The likely outcome at the moment will be the hostages killed and the next generation of Palestinian children growing up wanting Jihad with Israel.

 

Thanks, but I know what 'denude' means. I'm not sure what you meant by it in the context of Hamas and the current situation. What it effectively entails or imply. If it's yet another reference to Israeli leadership statements taken literally, that's not what I posted about.

 

The apparent trend is that Israel should stop bombing the Gaza Strip, leave Hamas in place and deal with it on its terms. Considering gaps in positions and the unlikelihood a major changes in policy, at best this would result with hostages (mostly civilian) being exchanged for thousands of Hamas members held in Israel, things then go back to how they were - foreign aid pours in to restore Gaza, Hamas remains in charge, and with a 'win' under its belt can plan for the next round. Just more of the same, but worse.

 

For all we know, many of the hostages could already be dead. And future attitudes of Gazan kids are almost certainly set by now anyway. There has to be more than that.

[Jeff the Chef]

For 75 years the Israeli's have been chipping away at non-Jewish people to increase their lands/settlements either through wars or revenge attacks after Arab attacks, I cannot see this ever changing sadly.

I'm beginning to think the west should just walk away and let this play out, let there be a bloodbath of Palestinians, let the Israeli's have whatever land they can secure. 

Then the Arabs will undoubtedly attack Israel  and there may be an end game in sight after millions of deaths and casualties.

Never going to happen because of all the US support for Israel and the amount of Jewish influence around the globe, there is a huge amount of Jewish money supporting mainstream media and governments which influences public opinion in there favour.

Lets be honest this is also about the oil/gas resources in the region and the US "Military Industrial Economy" all that lovely profit selling arms to everyman and his dog.

Then there is the Nuclear problem, would Israel dare to use it , has Iran got the capability of delivering a nuclear device and if either side did the M.E. would be a nuclear dessert with all that would entail.

 

Looking forward to reading the comments after I post this, everybody have a great day.

[Yellowtail]

31 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

For 75 years the Israeli's have been chipping away at non-Jewish people to increase their lands/settlements either through wars or revenge attacks after Arab attacks, I cannot see this ever changing sadly.

I'm beginning to think the west should just walk away and let this play out, let there be a bloodbath of Palestinians, let the Israeli's have whatever land they can secure. 

Then the Arabs will undoubtedly attack Israel  and there may be an end game in sight after millions of deaths and casualties.

Never going to happen because of all the US support for Israel and the amount of Jewish influence around the globe, there is a huge amount of Jewish money supporting mainstream media and governments which influences public opinion in there favour.

Lets be honest this is also about the oil/gas resources in the region and the US "Military Industrial Economy" all that lovely profit selling arms to everyman and his dog.

Then there is the Nuclear problem, would Israel dare to use it , has Iran got the capability of delivering a nuclear device and if either side did the M.E. would be a nuclear dessert with all that would entail.

 

Looking forward to reading the comments after I post this, everybody have a great day.

 

Indeed, but for the Jews the world would be at peace.

 

You have a great day as well. 

[bobbin]

There are none so blind as those that will not see..

[bobbin]

As for allowing Hamas a "win" if the current illegal non-proportionate retribution is not allowed to continue..

 

Well, I think most of us are aware that Israel has been quite successful over the years in targeting and eliminating specific individuals..

 

I have no problem with a targeted response like this. Yes, it will take more time and it's not as flashy, but it is effective and will save thousands of innocent lives.

 

As for the innocent hostages, including many non-Israelis ( 20 Thais?), make a deal for an exchange..

[bobbin]

A further thought on an exchange of prisoners held by the Israelis in exchange for hostages..

 

 

Apparently the last such exchange involved 6000 Palestinians for 1 Israeli solder.. Well, that was a stupid deal on the part of the Israelis, apparently spear-headed by Netanyahu for short-term political points while ignoring the long-term security implications for Israel.

 

Make the exchange negotiations public and transparent. And proportionate. The World will then have the opportunity to make their judgements. It's my opinion that this would be a more successful strategy for Israel..

[Jeff the Chef]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Indeed, but for the Jews the world would be at peace.

 

You have a great day as well. 

You blame the Jews if you want, I'll just blame the whole of Humanity, as an individual I don't want to kill anyone, period, now if everybody thought like that would we have a peaceful world, now that could be a discussion to have. 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

For 75 years the Israeli's have been chipping away at non-Jewish people to increase their lands/settlements either through wars or revenge attacks after Arab attacks, I cannot see this ever changing sadly.

I'm beginning to think the west should just walk away and let this play out, let there be a bloodbath of Palestinians, let the Israeli's have whatever land they can secure. 

Then the Arabs will undoubtedly attack Israel  and there may be an end game in sight after millions of deaths and casualties.

Never going to happen because of all the US support for Israel and the amount of Jewish influence around the globe, there is a huge amount of Jewish money supporting mainstream media and governments which influences public opinion in there favour.

Lets be honest this is also about the oil/gas resources in the region and the US "Military Industrial Economy" all that lovely profit selling arms to everyman and his dog.

Then there is the Nuclear problem, would Israel dare to use it , has Iran got the capability of delivering a nuclear device and if either side did the M.E. would be a nuclear dessert with all that would entail.

 

Looking forward to reading the comments after I post this, everybody have a great day.

 

I think that's one fine I'm-not-an-antisemite-but-Jews-control-the-World post.

Thanks for sharing.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, bobbin said:

As for allowing Hamas a "win" if the current illegal non-proportionate retribution is not allowed to continue..

 

Well, I think most of us are aware that Israel has been quite successful over the years in targeting and eliminating specific individuals..

 

I have no problem with a targeted response like this. Yes, it will take more time and it's not as flashy, but it is effective and will save thousands of innocent lives.

 

As for the innocent hostages, including many non-Israelis ( 20 Thais?), make a deal for an exchange..

 

There were thousands involved in the Hamas attack. Most of them in the Gaza Strip. If it was that easy for Israel to penetrate the border at will, snatch people without a problem and do this over and over thousands of times, maybe you'd have a point. Now back to reality....