Life Span Of Condos

[Anthony_Mustang]

O.K first I know absolutely nothing about Building construction.

As I have about 15 years until I retire I am considering buying an Investment condo which I can then move into when I retire.

One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos that are going up.

Ta

Anthony

[quiksilva]

From a valuation perspective we usually say a building's lifetime is about 30 years. However, its useful lifetime might be considerably longer than that with good management.

[Irene]

O.K first I know absolutely nothing about Building construction.

As I have about 15 years until I retire I am considering buying an Investment condo which I can then move into when I retire.

One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos that are going up.

Ta

Anthony

Anthony,

The first condos in town, Tai Ping Towers at Ekamai Road, must be approaching 30 years and still going strong. They are in the process of changing their lifts. It still can command a respectable rental. With that as an example, the condo building can have a life of 50 years at least assuming appropriate maintenance and well occupied. If you go by the London standard, you can still live in an apartment built in the 19th Century.

[Fred Sanford]

some of the "upscale" condos nearing completion that I've checked out look like they are made using really cheap materials. You might say they look like the US Home condos of Thailand

[Anthony_Mustang]

O.K first I know absolutely nothing about Building construction.

As I have about 15 years until I retire I am considering buying an Investment condo which I can then move into when I retire.

One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos that are going up.

Ta

Anthony

Anthony,

The first condos in town, Tai Ping Towers at Ekamai Road, must be approaching 30 years and still going strong. They are in the process of changing their lifts. It still can command a respectable rental. With that as an example, the condo building can have a life of 50 years at least assuming appropriate maintenance and well occupied. If you go by the London standard, you can still live in an apartment built in the 19th Century.

Thanks for the replies.

Somehow I don't think Thai building standards may be up to European. I remember asking a Thai friend of why they are always pulling up the sidewalks in Bangkok and he said "it's cheaper doing a quick job and replacing it after a few years rather than spending all the time it takes to do a really good job that will last"

Didn't exactely give me confidence in Thai building standards.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Anthony_Mustang

[backflip]

"One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos"

Do you know of any Bangkok condo buildings that had to be "scrapped" because of poor construction? Neither do I. Since you won't be retiring for another 15 years, perhaps you should worry about something else.

[chownah]

"One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos"

Do you know of any Bangkok condo buildings that had to be "scrapped" because of poor construction? Neither do I. Since you won't be retiring for another 15 years, perhaps you should worry about something else.

This brings up a question I asked in another thread and didn't get a thorough answer.

How many concrete and steel buildings were built more than 30 years ago? Irene asserts that Tai Ping Towers at Ekamai Road was the first condo in Bangkok and it is not yet 30 years old. Does anyone have any other examples of old concrete and steel buildings in Thailand?

[chownah]

some of the "upscale" condos nearing completion that I've checked out look like they are made using really cheap materials. You might say they look like the US Home condos of Thailand

The materials you must be concerned with to assure a structure that will last a long time are primarily the steel and the concrete. It is doubtful that you can determine the quality of steel or concrete by casually seeing what they look like....but if you are knowledgeable about construction then you might be able to spot some indications if you watch the work carefully.

[Anthony_Mustang]

"One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos"

Do you know of any Bangkok condo buildings that had to be "scrapped" because of poor construction? Neither do I. Since you won't be retiring for another 15 years, perhaps you should worry about something else.

No 15 years isn't a long time when it comes to getting ready for your retirement.

If you don't start thinking early your going to end up with some very unhappy times after you stop work.

[Heng]

Go with a builder that's built more than just 2-3 projects like say AP or Land and House and resist the urge to buy on the 30th-40th floor. Buy a unit in one of their many 6-8 story complexes. Same great service, plenty of different locations to choose from, and far better odds in the long run in terms of building integrity.

[Anthony_Mustang]

Go with a builder that's built more than just 2-3 projects like say AP or Land and House and resist the urge to buy on the 30th-40th floor. Buy a unit in one of their many 6-8 story complexes. Same great service, plenty of different locations to choose from, and far better odds in the long run in terms of building integrity.

Thanks Heng,

Who is AP or Land and House?

I am going to be looking at places around Jontiem in October so it's good to have a heads up.

[Heng]

Two of the main developers here. Asia Property and Land and House. I don't think they have any Jomtien projects though.

[PeaceBlondie]

The following is not so much about expected life of a condo, but of actual life in an old one.

I lived in an old condo, one of Chiang Mai's first, from 2003 to 2005. One tenant on my floor left fresh dog poop in the hallway almost every day. My next door neighbor was a raving maniac who shouted very loudly through the walls. The unit above me was renovated, to the tune of hammers and drills, for weeks. The pool closed. The outdoor restaurant closed. Lifts closed for weeks at a time. There were cracks in the interior and exterior concerete walls. I had major electrical wiring problems which they misdiagnosed. The property manager absconded with funds. All this in two years.

Nothing lasts forever, even new Thai condos. I think my nephew and his wife still are professional, certified managers of condo complexes, in the West. Are there professional standards in Thailand for managing condos, that are actually observed?

[Irene]

"One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos"

Do you know of any Bangkok condo buildings that had to be "scrapped" because of poor construction? Neither do I. Since you won't be retiring for another 15 years, perhaps you should worry about something else.

This brings up a question I asked in another thread and didn't get a thorough answer.

How many concrete and steel buildings were built more than 30 years ago? Irene asserts that Tai Ping Towers at Ekamai Road was the first condo in Bangkok and it is not yet 30 years old. Does anyone have any other examples of old concrete and steel buildings in Thailand?

Go to Chinatown, there are so many buildings built before the Second World War or go Rajdumnern Avenue, they were all built pre-War. One building with nine floors is still standing in Chinatown though somewhat dilapidated.

[sleepyjohn]

How many concrete and steel buildings were built more than 30 years ago?

I have heard proper concrete doesn't get weaker it gets stronger as molecular bonds increase with time and yes I can give you examples. The bunkers scattered around Europe in the war are so hard now apparently they are a super pain to demolish. Very hard indeed and harder than when they were new.

The usual disclaimers apply as I'm not a civil engineer.

i do know that the worst problem would be "blowing" of the steel inside the concrete, where it gets wet and becomes rusty which molecule is bigger than the original steel and therefore expands and cracks the concrete. This is however very visible indeed and would be dealt with.

I'd advise you to go for a well managed condo....they certainly exist.

Edited July 18, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[sleepyjohn]

I might add that if I were buying a condo, which I nearly did some time ago, I would only buy in a block where the residents have power through their vote and an active committee, rather than the power being in the hands of say the developer or one family if he still owns a lot of condos. As I said there are a good few blocks run properly and given the amazing value in CM it makes it even more worthwhile. Some prices are little changed from when they were built fifteen years ago, and this cannot last.

[chownah]

"One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos"

Do you know of any Bangkok condo buildings that had to be "scrapped" because of poor construction? Neither do I. Since you won't be retiring for another 15 years, perhaps you should worry about something else.

This brings up a question I asked in another thread and didn't get a thorough answer.

How many concrete and steel buildings were built more than 30 years ago? Irene asserts that Tai Ping Towers at Ekamai Road was the first condo in Bangkok and it is not yet 30 years old. Does anyone have any other examples of old concrete and steel buildings in Thailand?

Go to Chinatown, there are so many buildings built before the Second World War or go Rajdumnern Avenue, they were all built pre-War. One building with nine floors is still standing in Chinatown though somewhat dilapidated.

Are these buildings concrete and steel or are they brick/block and mortar?

[Tyke]

O.K first I know absolutely nothing about Building construction.

As I have about 15 years until I retire I am considering buying an Investment condo which I can then move into when I retire.

One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos that are going up.

Ta

Anthony

If you really need to plan years in advance, then if I was you I would wait until the condo prices crash in a year or two - then buy a nice big one at a cut price. But I really don't see the point of planning accommodation 15 years in advance as anything can happen between now and when u retire, including a massive reduction in the value of the condo with advancing age. What will you do with the condo for 15 years? rent it out as an absentee landlord - not a good idea. Keep it for holiday use - a waste of potential investment cash. I would wait until at least a couple of years before (preferably after) your intended move here and in the meantime invest the cash more productively. Thailand is a country which oozes an atmosphere conducive to making rash mistakes for a number of reasons - just bide your time - and hopefully it will still be here in 15 years time.

[oldhand]

"One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos"

Do you know of any Bangkok condo buildings that had to be "scrapped" because of poor construction? Neither do I. Since you won't be retiring for another 15 years, perhaps you should worry about something else.

Backflip,

Although you did not answer the OP's question 10/10 for the reply, LOL

K

[jackmuu]

Lack of management sucks when they stop caring, there is a 10 year old fairly well respected condo near me and they have let it go to hel_l. Once they sell a lot of people couldn't care less.

[thaicurious]

many high rise apartments built in american & other cities in the early 1900s still stand, well-maintained and well-serviced. so if you think a building you are considering won't last many generations, you need to find a better one for your investment.

while i don't know the quality of construction in thailand, any well-built concrete and steel building should last 100 years without too many problems if taken care of properly. for instance, a building near the beach might have erosion problems due to salt spray and so might need balcony & other exterior repair every 30 years or so. that alone can cost a few million (usd) per renovation.

if you are considering especially an older building, make sure you check the condo's reserves for maintenance and repairs. otherwise you could be surprised with a rather costly assessment down the road.

Edited August 8, 2007 by thaicurious

[shochu]

In developing countries many mid-rise buildings are built with a lifspan of - depending - about 25-30 years. But this is more for the books. Having said that - most of these buildings will last much, much longer. The problem arises out of things such as the mixture of the concrete. and in very wet places the type of steel used for re-inforcing, and the exterior protection against the elements - as mentioned by a previous poster. However, in buidlings that have passed a few years - there are tell tale signs of possible problems.

I wouldn't worry about it too much - as even if the building is in rough shape - it will generally stand with the exception of outside forces or severe weather surges. As another poster has mentioned - look at the old buildings not just in chinatown- but throughout asia that are still standing. Look at places like angkor wat.

As always - buy in desireable locations and when the building - should you let it get into disrepair - can always be demolished and rebuilt into a high rise for profit - and developers will be jumping at the opportunities during boom times - for the profit of course. This rebuild option is most often reserved for mid-level buildings - as high rises will need to be substantially tougher to meet stricter guidelines for wind load and such and thus be less susceptable to failure, and the profit margins are less - unless the sky is the limit in terms of how high you can go.

Buildings with damage can also be repaired - as many older buildings in new york and many other cities are undergoing this process now.

Amazing what a thin layer of mud will do for a building and some fresh paint on top!

The scary thought is how do you dismantle a skyscraper. Err maybe bring it down with some planes since it will cost more to repair or demolish it.

Your bigger worry is the foundation!!

And yes - if done right - concrete does get harder with time!

[thaigene2]

"One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos"

Do you know of any Bangkok condo buildings that had to be "scrapped" because of poor construction? Neither do I. Since you won't be retiring for another 15 years, perhaps you should worry about something else.

This brings up a question I asked in another thread and didn't get a thorough answer.

How many concrete and steel buildings were built more than 30 years ago? Irene asserts that Tai Ping Towers at Ekamai Road was the first condo in Bangkok and it is not yet 30 years old. Does anyone have any other examples of old concrete and steel buildings in Thailand?

Go to Chinatown, there are so many buildings built before the Second World War or go Rajdumnern Avenue, they were all built pre-War. One building with nine floors is still standing in Chinatown though somewhat dilapidated.

Irene - you are one of the most edifying members of this forum. Thanks for all your useful insights -- keep 'em coming.

As for you Backflip - got any friends pal? Real or imagined?

[Irene]

Irene - you are one of the most edifying members of this forum. Thanks for all your useful insights -- keep 'em coming.

thaigene2,

Just to say thank you for your encouraging words. Whenever I feel disheartened by some of the comments, I will always remember your words. Irene

[percy2]

How many concrete and steel buildings were built more than 30 years ago? Irene asserts that Tai Ping Towers at Ekamai Road was the first condo in Bangkok and it is not yet 30 years old. Does anyone have any other examples of old concrete and steel buildings in Thailand?

Both the Dusit Thani hotel and the Chokchai building are over 35 years old and still going strong.

The Dusit nay be demolished but not for structural reasons rather economic ones.

Cheers

[rogerdee123]

Both the Dusit Thani hotel and the Chokchai building are over 35 years old and still going strong.

I wasn't around when the Dusit Thani was constructed but it was the tallest building in Bangkok at the time (early 70s?) and probably one of the first that really used decent construction techniques for the spongy soil in Bangkok. Then in the late 70s there was the Bangkok Bank Building on Silom (which I saw under construction) which then became the highest in Bangkok for a few years and which local residents thought would be impossible to construct (or remain standing). Probably anything older than 35 years would be a bit iffy unless it's a low rise. But the lifespan of newly constructed highrises should be long enough ... IF ... decent construction technique and decent quality materials are used. But this is a big IF. A lot of crap has been built by get rich quick builders and real estate agents in Thailand. I wouldn't buy into any building in Thailand unless I did research on the company that built it and also did a bit of research on who else owns units in the building.

[AmericanGuy1066]

O.K first I know absolutely nothing about Building construction.

As I have about 15 years until I retire I am considering buying an Investment condo which I can then move into when I retire.

One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos that are going up.

Ta

Anthony

Buy "The Trendy" I heard that might be finished in 15 years. It's name might also have become fashionable again by then.

[AmericanGuy1066]

O.K first I know absolutely nothing about Building construction.

As I have about 15 years until I retire I am considering buying an Investment condo which I can then move into when I retire.

One of my worries (and I have many) is the expected building life span of some of these Condos that are going up.

Ta

Anthony

I hope you're also worrying about what colour your curtains will be too. You don't want something that will be out of fashion in 15 years time. I'd also pick a place that's close to the third airport, as you don't want to have to worry about having to take the cable car, based on the safety reports that will be circulating. Make sure it's not too close to the large solar power station that will be built tho', as I reckon people will still be uncertain about the health effects of such intense solar rays nearby. Access to the NRT and CTS will be important, so make sure you've looked at the blue prnts for these. Ensure they have an outdoor ski slope to keep up with the neighbours. I also heard some of the planned developments haven't thought of jaylow technology connections, so steer clear of them too. Plus make sure you don't pay more than 10mio ACUs for it.

[JonnieB]

Just a few thoughts...though I am not an engineer or construction expert, I do have the experience of being a condo owner (in the West) and experience as an attorney who had a few cases that involved claims of defective construction in new condo developments.

Some key factors regarding condo building longevity and habitability are its initial construction quality for sure, but equally important is the regular maintenance and the management of the building. The building must have a professionally prepared capital maintenance plan and this must be up-to-date and fully funded. I know from experience that major painting, roofing, air conditioning (if central) and plumbing maintains is not cheap. Also, at some point (after 20-30 years, the plumbing tree of the building may have to be completely removed and a new one installed. At least that is the case in areas of the USA where steel pipes, rather than copper, was used. I don't know how these blue plastic pipes they use in Thailand stand-up over the long term. So initial construction and ongoing regular maintenance are crucial. Based on my general experience in LOS, I would almost assume that where the problem is likely to develop is the "on-going" maintenance end of things.

The other key is management. Like some have said, finding good management is not easy. Managers taking off with funds is one issue. The other is I have heard stories of buildings basically being taken over by mafia types and holding the residents basically hostage to their extortionate demands when it comes to the cost of basic condo services like garbage removal, electricity and water charges, and basic maintenance to the common areas and in-unit work. Of course, being Thailand, there can often be no easy way to get rid of these figures because some pui yai or another is protecting them or you don't want to take a flyer of your condo balcony. Now, I have read about these stories but don't know if they are rampant or just Bangkok urban myths. Maybe someone with more knowledge could comment on them.

Of course, the other downside to condo living is the neighbors. You have almost no control over who they are or what they do. They paid good money for their units and feel that they the right to do almost anything with their unit at any time of the day or night. That is the main reason I know that people have moved out of condos...problems with neighbors and noise issues. Only way to try to avoid some of this is to buy in someplace expensive and hope your upper-class neighbors also have an interest in keeping up the properties value and getting a good nite's sleep themselves.

[Oleg_Rus]

My exp'ce - not more than 15years. Turn into filthy stinky sh*thole aftrer. The reasons are :

1. Plumbing

2. Wiring

3. Ventilations

4. Waste management

5. Tenants - since condo getting older it gets cheaper and occupied by less wealthy folks...

6. Lack of management - corrupted

7. Cheap ass construction project and shoe string budget on materials.

Exeptions are, sure. But major is.