Factchecking 21 misleading myths about electric vehicles

[Bandersnatch]

27 minutes ago, sirineou said:

IMO most people would want their ride juiced up and ready to go, some might wait until later when the price is lower, but if everyone waited until later to charge wont those be higher demand hours and wont the electric companies charge accordingly? 

 

As you said yourself "I don't have an EV" meaning you don't think the way EV owners think. You don't understand how EVs work.

 

"if everyone waited until later to charge wont those be higher demand hours and wont the electric companies charge accordingly"

 

EVs represent a tiny proportion of countries energy usage, but they want EV owners to charge at night so power like Wind doesn't need to switched off and they don't need to switch on Gas Peaker early evening.

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

57 minutes ago, sirineou said:

IMO most people would want their ride juiced up and ready to go, some might wait until later when the price is lower, but if everyone waited until later to charge wont those be higher demand hours and wont the electric companies charge accordingly? 

Strange thoughts, as it's always ready to go.

 

Do you keep your ICEV topped up all the time ?   I would depend how people use and charge their EVs, and battery chemistry.  Though soon most will be LFP, for standard EVs.   So topping up to 100% more often isn't detrimental to longevity.

 

Myself, depending on season of year, since use solar;

... Rainy, top up when sun is available

... Non rainy, sometime before it goes down to 50%, as will get me to Hua Hin, in a med emergency.

 

I could always use the grid, overnight and it would be topped up by daytime, as never below 50% anyway, unless just back from an O&A

 

Only takes 30 minutes to top up to 90-95% at CS, a few kms from house, if needed.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

As JBChiangRai posted two posts below yours, The UK. In the US you need a permit,  

In the USA, you need a permit to do anything to your electric feed.  Want to install another 220v line or breaker box for garage apartment or if splitting you house (make apartment for family), you'll need a permit.  Installed by certified sparky, then inspected afterward before using.

 

Why I left the Nanny state .... way too many regulations for basic.  Stuff.  Part govt, part unions.   Such as you can't use PVC pipe in many applications and have to use certified plumber & copper.   Some real silly stuff.  When I left, none of the efficient energy saving under the counter water heater.... oh no, need to heat up a huge 50 gal water tank all day that nobody is using.

[MangoKorat]

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

 

Ken McMeikan, chief executive of Moto Hospitality, which operates motorway service stations across the UK, said the lack of power capacity for charge points is a "major problem" facing the electric vehicle industry.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/electric-car-owners-issued-dire-warning-by-motorway-services-boss-091522987.html?

 

EV drivers are turning up to motorway services at four of our locations and there are chargers sitting there but no power."

 

Yes, there has been quite a lot of debates about this recently I saw an interview on TV with the Moto boss you refer to in which he stated just the same.

 

The UK government likes to claim there is no problem and gives details of just how much power is available in the UK's grid which on the face of it seems to be sufficient - for now.  They are politicians trying to stay in government and to be fair to them, they have been left with promises made by Boris Johnson - not someone known for checking whether his promises are attainable or not.  Remember his 'Oven Ready' Brexit deal?  That deal is not actually done yet - think Northern Ireland.

 

However, in 'off the record' discussions with officials from the grid, they state 2 important things:

 

1.  The projected amount of power available within the grid was based on details given to them by the government.

 

2. There may be sufficient total power available to meet those projections/targets but it is not necessarily in the right place.  For example, a lot of power was previously used to supply former industrial sites that are now closed - think mines and heavy industry. Those sites may not be reasonably useable/accessable in relation to charging EV's

 

Getting it to the right place will undoubtabely lead to major disruption to the UK's roads.  One official rightly pointed out that when they were asked for details of power availability by the government, they were only given town/city/region names - not precise locations.  They know full well that to upgrade many areas dedicated to housing for example, will require major new underground cabling but without specifics being given by the government, they could only provide a general reply by town/city/region.

 

When pressed, the same officials admitted that at the time they were asked to provide supply details, no consideration was given to the requirements of forthcoming industrial change - in particular the 'tech' industry and the massive amounts of power required to power 'The Cloud' which is now taking up locations in the UK.

 

Could this be one of the reasons why the current UK government is starting to talk about going back to 2035 as the target date for all new cars to be electric rather than 2030?

[Elkski]

Its  not political for me.  

What is the useful life going to be?

What resale will an ev have at year 10,15,20,30?

Batteries cost how much? 20kusd? In 23' but all custom shapes or structural. Ive watched videis of these non tesla shops opening a tesla battery to fix 1 bad cell.   How many techs will get fried in the next decade? 

How many shops can work on these evs?  Where are the techs getting trained? 

What about the articles stating that teslas are sitting in large numbers outside repair ships waiting parts.  I'm 

Not mentioning the fire hazard or the batteries in a crash or charging. 

I gas up at Costco. 24 pumps, always a line  5 minutes to fill a tank.  Similar gas stations on the interstate and highways.  If it even takes 30 mines we need to see 5 times more similar 24 station charge stations.   I say the power isnt there along the desolate stretches of highways in western USA. 

I've read about lines at charging station? Just 2 ahead of you would mean a long wait. 

Its 500 miles to my nearest relatives  its 6 hours at 75 mph to vegas. 

My f250 is a 91' runs great. Am10mpg but i can but with average new car payments over 800$/ mo i can buy enough gas to drive  2500 miles a month.  And i can buy parts and fix it myself  

My GMC tukon is 04' still running, parts available and i can fix it   

Both actually have some resale value. 

I will wait and see what happens in 10 years.  We are  actually looking to buy a used small suv and am not considering ev.  Maybe i should consider a hybrid. Currently i am not. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Elkski

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Have you read who the author of that article is?

 

Diana  @aworkoffiction

 

It's nonsense, it will never happen.

 

I can see a different class of licence being required or have to be older, that would make sense.

You should have check the link at the bottom of the article

Extreme Acceleration Is the New Traffic Safety Frontier

The electric vehicle revolution has also helped deliver a new golden age of automotive horsepower — and safety regulators aren’t ready for it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-01-06/welcome-to-the-age-of-extreme-acceleration?srnd=citylab

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

In 1 stroke you would destroy BMW M division, Mercedes AMG division, Aston Martin, Lotus, TVR, Porsche, Ferrari, Koenigseg, Rimac, Bugatti, and dozens more - it could never happen.

The majority of those Brands have access to off the road test tracks all over the world either directly or through their parent companies It would be easy for them to offer a track day experience as part of any sale

 all drivers  to attend an  electric vehicle training course to understand that Driving style differs from ICE to electric vehicles

Chinese  companies could offer something similar in China rest of the world it would be more diffcult

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

34 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The majority of those Brands have access to off the road test tracks all over the world either directly or through their parent companies It would be easy for them to offer a track day experience as part of any sale

 all drivers  to attend an  electric vehicle training course to understand that Driving style differs from ICE to electric vehicles

Chinese  companies could offer something similar in China rest of the world it would be more diffcult

 

 

 Having owned a Porsche 911 4S and more recently here in Thailand a Porsche Taycan Turbo, I can tell you the driving style is almost identical, actually the EV is far easier, far faster and safer to drive.

 

A mandatory track day is not the solution, a speed awareness course is more appropriate & I wouldn’t be against it being impossible to disable ESC & ABS on normal roads, most super car rental companies make it impossible to disable ESC already.

 

I think it far more likely that licenses would follow the British model on motorbikes, a mandatory training course, a smaller one at first before a larger one.  I am not sure if that is still current policy.

 

There will never be a policy that discriminates against fast EV and not fast ICE cars, so that argument in this topic is irrelevant.

[Screaming]

Ford lost around $36,000 for every electric vehicle it sold in the quarter.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/693626/ford-cuts-ev-investment-after-losing-36000-usd-every-ev-sold-q3/

 

If it was not for government incentives in the United States, electric vehicle sales would plummet. It is really sad that each taxpayer in the United States is subsidizing the EV market.

[vinny41]

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 Having owned a Porsche 911 4S and more recently here in Thailand a Porsche Taycan Turbo, I can tell you the driving style is almost identical, actually the EV is far easier, far faster and safer to drive.

 

A mandatory track day is not the solution, a speed awareness course is more appropriate & I wouldn’t be against it being impossible to disable ESC & ABS on normal roads, most super car rental companies make it impossible to disable ESC already.

 

I think it far more likely that licenses would follow the British model on motorbikes, a mandatory training course, a smaller one at first before a larger one.  I am not sure if that is still current policy.

 

There will never be a policy that discriminates against fast EV and not fast ICE cars, so that argument in this topic is irrelevant.

I disagree at the moment the safety regulators are focused on the safety concerns over EV Acceleration

They are not looking at ICE vehicles 

In the UK Insurance companies are either declining to insure EV's are providing renewal quotes ranging from a 60% increase to a whopping 940% increase

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs

Now according to the French arm of Axa

The misjudgement of those unexpected accelerations is therefore the main cause of accidents with electric cars, say the experts at Axa

Electric cars are involved in 50% more traffic accidents than their petrol and diesel counterparts, according to a study by insurer Axa.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/287315/electric-cars-involved-in-more-accidents-than-regular-vehicles-study-shows

So at the moment UK and French Insurance companies policy that discriminates against fast EV as Electric cars are involved in 50% more traffic accidents

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

In the USA, you need a permit to do anything to your electric feed.  Want to install another 220v line or breaker box for garage apartment or if splitting you house (make apartment for family), you'll need a permit.  Installed by certified sparky, then inspected afterward before using.

 

Why I left the Nanny state .... way too many regulations for basic.  Stuff.  Part govt, part unions.   Such as you can't use PVC pipe in many applications and have to use certified plumber & copper.   Some real silly stuff.  When I left, none of the efficient energy saving under the counter water heater.... oh no, need to heat up a huge 50 gal water tank all day that nobody is using.

Trust me m being from the US also I too had my issues with them, Some are unreasonable but most  are nessacery. . 

Unlike here ,in the US when you buy a house you are assured that it is built to code. In order that you get a Certificate of Occupancy (CO) Permits have to be acquired, and inspections made, before anything is closed up. Here , do you thi k there is an Steel inspection before you pure columns and beams? So How do you know they put in the required steel? You don't. etc etc, which is why I would never buy a house build by anyone else here. 

The concern I bring up concerning the ability of the grid to handle EV charging demand is a reasonable one , The utilities are aware of the issue, and I am sure are working on ways to mitigate it. They of course could not possibly work out contingencies without knowing  who is using what and where , This is also a reasonable proposition .Nothing out of the norm. In fact it would be irresponsible if they were not 

Edited November 6, 2023 by sirineou

[JBChiangRai]

17 minutes ago, Screaming said:

Ford lost around $36,000 for every electric vehicle it sold in the quarter.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/693626/ford-cuts-ev-investment-after-losing-36000-usd-every-ev-sold-q3/

 

If it was not for government incentives in the United States, electric vehicle sales would plummet. It is really sad that each taxpayer in the United States is subsidizing the EV market.

 

This says more about Ford’s competitiveness against Tesla and China.

 

The reason Tesla and China are so successful is they have locked down their supply chains.

 

If you read a bit more about Ford you will find that supply chains are partly their problem, same at GM.  Their entry is very late to market.
 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Strange thoughts, as it's always ready to go.

 

Do you keep your ICEV topped up all the time ?   I would depend how people use and charge their EVs, and battery chemistry.  Though soon most will be LFP, for standard EVs.   So topping up to 100% more often isn't detrimental to longevity.

 

Myself, depending on season of year, since use solar;

... Rainy, top up when sun is available

... Non rainy, sometime before it goes down to 50%, as will get me to Hua Hin, in a med emergency.

 

I could always use the grid, overnight and it would be topped up by daytime, as never below 50% anyway, unless just back from an O&A

 

Only takes 30 minutes to top up to 90-95% at CS, a few kms from house, if needed.

Ok I am convinced 

People will not be charging after coming home during peak they all will be doing it later when the rates are lower and ll those people charging later at low demand will nit raise the demand . 

How fullish of me to think otherwise. 

Apologies 

[JBChiangRai]

10 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I disagree at the moment the safety regulators are focused on the safety concerns over EV Acceleration

They are not looking at ICE vehicles 

In the UK Insurance companies are either declining to insure EV's are providing renewal quotes ranging from a 60% increase to a whopping 940% increase

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs

Now according to the French arm of Axa

The misjudgement of those unexpected accelerations is therefore the main cause of accidents with electric cars, say the experts at Axa

Electric cars are involved in 50% more traffic accidents than their petrol and diesel counterparts, according to a study by insurer Axa.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/287315/electric-cars-involved-in-more-accidents-than-regular-vehicles-study-shows

So at the moment UK and French Insurance companies policy that discriminates against fast EV as Electric cars are involved in 50% more traffic accidents

I am calling BS on your statement that regulators are looking at limiting acceleration on cars.

[KhunLA]

The recycling myth ...

... nothing is ever wasted, as someone's trash is always another's treasure.

 

More headway being made.  How's that recycling of petrol coming along 

 

And if you are charging those batteries by solar, yes, those  solar panels are recyclable also.

Edited November 7, 2023 by KhunLA

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I am calling BS on your statement that regulators are looking at limiting acceleration on cars.

it doesn't matter what you call it

"I'm concerned about the increased risk of severe injury and death for all road users from heavier curb weights and increasing size, power, and performance of vehicles on our roads, including electric vehicles," Homendy said in remarks prepared for the group.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/11/1148483758/ntsb-heavy-electric-vehicles-safety-risks

 

Should EV acceleration be legally limited for safety reasons?

Some of our readers might believe that they would have no problem controlling these cars, but the reality is that the drivers who buy them may not have enough skill and, as such, could easily become a danger to themselves and other road users – even if they stay within the speed limit. YouTube is full of videos of much slower, petrol-driven ‘supercars’ crashing at relatively low speeds, due to the power generated from the line when the lights change.

https://www.whichev.net/2020/04/24/should-ev-acceleration-be-legally-limited-for-safety-reasons/

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

it doesn't matter what you call it

"I'm concerned about the increased risk of severe injury and death for all road users from heavier curb weights and increasing size, power, and performance of vehicles on our roads, including electric vehicles," Homendy said in remarks prepared for the group.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/11/1148483758/ntsb-heavy-electric-vehicles-safety-risks

 

Should EV acceleration be legally limited for safety reasons?

Some of our readers might believe that they would have no problem controlling these cars, but the reality is that the drivers who buy them may not have enough skill and, as such, could easily become a danger to themselves and other road users – even if they stay within the speed limit. YouTube is full of videos of much slower, petrol-driven ‘supercars’ crashing at relatively low speeds, due to the power generated from the line when the lights change.

https://www.whichev.net/2020/04/24/should-ev-acceleration-be-legally-limited-for-safety-reasons/

 

Insurers will of course take control of this emerging hazard, they move quickly when something new tips the balance sheet.

Personally I will sit on the fence and watch the EV gold rush develop, lots more entertainment to come that's for sure.

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:09 AM, VocalNeal said:

 

I'm interested to know why you think Britain's grid is creaking.

You seem to have completely misread the OP. It is a list of "21 misleading myths" about EV's.

 

What he is clearly stating is that all these 21 statements are, in fact, false. 

[newnative]

On 11/6/2023 at 12:35 PM, VocalNeal said:

 

In which case he should have not have simply copied and pasted he should have done a proper job.

I think most of us careful readers easily understood the OP's useful post, with the helpful link to the actual article, which I found interesting.  I don't know what more 'proper job' he could have done.  

[VocalNeal]

14 minutes ago, newnative said:

I think most of us careful readers easily understood the OP's useful post, with the helpful link to the actual article, which I found interesting.  I don't know what more 'proper job' he could have done.  

 

The real article had "False" appended to all the statements.

 

But then I am accustomed to an executive summary. I only read further if I need added information before making a decision

 

[newnative]

15 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

 

The real article had "False" appended to all the statements.

 

But then I am accustomed to an executive summary. I only read further if I need added information before making a decision

 

   Just admit it.  You misread the original post (OP).   And, apparently, are still misreading it. You missed the sentence, "Questions covered in the article:'.  The OP then listed a number of statements regarding electric vehicles, with a link to an article that explained whether they were true or false.  You had to click on the article, and actually read it, not the OP, to see whether a statement was true or false.  By the way, the 'real article' did not have false 'appended to all the statements', as you claim.  One statement was appended 'incomplete' and one was appended 'mostly false'.  So, if you actually got to the 'real article' you misread it, too.

[Iamloki]

On 11/6/2023 at 10:18 AM, Bandersnatch said:

An EV has to travel 50,000+ miles to break even’

Given that ice car is a money pit with no "break even" point... 50K on the EV is a plus...

[VocalNeal]

26 minutes ago, newnative said:

You had to click on the article, and actually read it, not the OP, to see whether a statement was true or false. 

 

Isn't that explained in what I just wrote above. 

[newnative]

5 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

 

Isn't that explained in what I just wrote above. 

      Not really.  Time for an Executive Summary:

     You seem to remain confused by not seeing 'false' in the OP list of EV statements.  Hence, your comment, 'The real article had "False" appended to all the statements.  Which, it actually didn't.  But, your implication being, the OP should also have had false appended to its statements.  Which might, or might not, have prevented your confused post questioning why the original poster thought Britain's power grid was 'creaking'.  Which left several of us going, huh?  How did he come up with that?  Obviously, misread the original post.  (When some of us highlighted your gaffe, it didn't  help your cause any to accuse the original poster of not doing a 'proper job'.)  Another, huh?

    In any case, the purpose of the thread was to call attention to the article and invite readers to click on the article to discover for themselves whether the statements listed in the OP were true or false.  In summary, here's a list of statements regarding electric vehicles.  Are they true or false?  Click on the article and find out.  The answers are not here in the OP.

[LukKrueng]

On 11/6/2023 at 10:18 AM, Bandersnatch said:

For those of us who own EVs in Thailand it can be frustrating having to fact check the same things all the time, so I am posting this link to facilitate the debates

 

Are you trying to convince yourself that you've made the right choice buying an EV or those who don't want an EV that you are right and they are wrong??

Personally, until they have a 4x4 pick-up truck that can go 800-900 Km on 1 "tank" and charging from empty to full takes no longer than 15 minutes AND costs the same to buy as a Diesel truck - I'll stay with what I have :)

[GroveHillWanderer]

7 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

 

Are you trying to convince yourself that you've made the right choice buying an EV or those who don't want an EV that you are right and they are wrong??

Personally, until they have a 4x4 pick-up truck that can go 800-900 Km on 1 "tank" and charging from empty to full takes no longer than 15 minutes AND costs the same to buy as a Diesel truck - I'll stay with what I have :)

That day is a lot closer than you might think. There are already EV's  with a 1000 km range and batteries that can add 400 km of range in ten minutes. They're not the norm yet, but may well be, before too long.

 

And I don't know about you, but I don't ever let my ICE vehicle's tank get down to absolutely and completely empty before filling up (and I can't imagine anyone else does). For me, I usually go to top up once it gets to around 25% and I don't usually fill it up to 100% either.

[Lacessit]

IMO the OP is presenting various statements as established myths, without evidence to support the claim. It's called begging the question.

 

" Electric vehicles alone can’t solve climate change"

 

This is not a myth. If every ICE in Australia was to be converted to an EV overnight, the resulting reduction in carbon dioxide emissions would be 9%. Said EV's still need to be refuelled from CO2 - belching power stations.

 

It's not a myth EV's are going to cause more road wear, due to their higher vehicle mass. Res ipsa loquitur.

 

It's not a myth EV ownership has some of the characteristics of a religion, with dissenters being regarded as heretics.

 

It's not a myth there won't be sufficient raw material for batteries available to achieve complete EV conversion, until at least ten times the current mine capacity is in full production.

[Bandersnatch]

29 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

Are you trying to convince yourself that you've made the right choice buying an EV or those who don't want an EV that you are right and they are wrong??

 

I just bought my second EV so I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

 

There are plenty of people who don't want an EV which is fine, but please shut up about it  - nobody needs to hear every day that you don't want an EV

 

I would say that there are many people who post here who definitely shouldn't buy one. It's not as easy as rolling up to PTT and handing over a thousand Baht with a "Bee Jet Krap"  

 

There are apps and a lot of tech which can be a bit tricky for some.

 

"many people who post here who definitely shouldn't buy one"  end up on EV discussions trying to tell those of us who have been driving EVs in Thailand for years stuff like:

 

"There are no chargers in Thailand you know" 

 

"Battery will be dead in less than a year - it's the weather here you know" 

 

"EVs in Thailand are too expensive, you can't buy one for less than $100,000"

 

My question is why are they on EV discussions repeating the same old rubbish. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

6 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IMO the OP is presenting various statements as established myths, without evidence to support the claim. It's called begging the question.

 

" Electric vehicles alone can’t solve climate change"

 

This is not a myth. If every ICE in Australia was to be converted to an EV overnight, the resulting reduction in carbon dioxide emissions would be 9%. Said EV's still need to be refuelled from CO2 - belching power stations.

 

It's not a myth EV's are going to cause more road wear, due to their higher vehicle mass. Res ipsa loquitur.

 

It's not a myth EV ownership has some of the characteristics of a religion, with dissenters being regarded as heretics.

 

It's not a myth there won't be sufficient raw material for batteries available to achieve complete EV conversion, until at least ten times the current mine capacity is in full production.

 

 

You didn't read the linked article did you?

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/

 

When you've actually done your homework, then you can come back and post here

[Tord55]

On 11/6/2023 at 12:01 PM, KhunLA said:

As with everything, choose the products you buy and where you plan on living with a bit of research.   It's not rocket science.

 

Better research = Happier life

You need to know if the charge stations along the route on your car map are free, working, and possible to use with your car to be able to plan, as otherwise, you risk spending as long in queues to get access to charging (and charging) as your time spent on traveling to your goal. That is sadly what happens to many EV owners if they plan to travel a decent distance!

 

Our local truck plant only makes heavy trucks, all powered by electrics, as they are designed for local delivery, and garbage collection (thus about 100 miles per day). They have given up making long distance trucks!