Really a stupid tax ?

[federicoP]

I see a lot of comments about this “stupid/nonsense tax”,  as if it had been designed above all to target us expats.

 

I believe that in most of the countries of origin of us expats, if someone is a tax resident (generally if he spends more than six months in the country), he must pay taxes on the investments he holds abroad.

And, unlike Thailand, taxes often have to be paid not only when he imports his earnings into the country, but also if he leaves his income abroad.

 

Why do we continue to complain about this new, more restrictive interpretation by the Revenue on a regulation that has already existed for many years and we pretended it didn't exist?

 

Why are we ready to accept certain rules at home but here in Thailand we are not willing to accept them?

 

Do we really believe we live in a more stupid and easy country than our native one ?

[liddelljohn]

I dont and never have had to pay  tax on any money or investments  held in any country I am not resident in ,  either in my home country of UK or my  dual citizen EU country or anywhere i have been resident  for career of 45 years   in my jobs  unless I brought that money as earned income  into resident country /

 

what the Thais are proposing but unlikey to actually implement is  contrary to all international law and dual tax treaties ,  But it does not amtter as its all circumventable legally unless you are Spanish, or USA citizen which Im not

Edited December 10, 2023 by liddelljohn

[Gottfrid]

25 minutes ago, federicoP said:

Do we really believe we live in a more stupid and easy country than our native one ?

yes

[expat_4_life]

13 minutes ago, federicoP said:

I see a lot of comments about this “stupid/nonsense tax”,  as if it had been designed above all to target us expats.

 

I believe that in most of the countries of origin of us expats, if someone is a tax resident (generally if he spends more than six months in the country), he must pay taxes on the investments he holds abroad.

And, unlike Thailand, taxes often have to be paid not only when he imports his earnings into the country, but also if he leaves his income abroad.

 

Why do we continue to complain about this new, more restrictive interpretation by the Revenue on a regulation that has already existed for many years and we pretended it didn't exist?

 

Why are we ready to accept certain rules at home but here in Thailand we are not willing to accept them?

 

Do we really believe we live in a more stupid and easy country than our native one ?

 

It's an impossible task to deal with all the doomers on a topic like this. It's just like all the people that claim that the visa rules keep changing.

 

I don't think this was particularly aimed at expats/retirees, there are certainly much much bigger fish to fry. Thai expats and particularly Thai company's structured around remitting likely billions of baht into the country tax free.

Remains to be seen how it actually enforced and what the rules are - still waiting for someone to tell me to get an TIN, have not needed one for 20 years.  I'm not a Thai citizen, a Thai company nor do I hold a work permit.  Most all retirees have some sort of protection of pension income with DTAs too.  Time will tell.

As a retired person with no intention of leaving I'll deal with the fallout if/when it arrives.

[Photoguy21]

I wonder if the Thai's working in the Middle East will be happy about it? They send their money back home for the family and the Middle East is essentially tax free. Tax them on what they send home and Thailand will need to have at least 250000 jobs waiting for them as I know they wont remain in the Middle East and pay tax.

[QuantumQuandry]

 

36 minutes ago, federicoP said:

I see a lot of comments about this “stupid/nonsense tax”,  as if it had been designed above all to target us expats.than our native one ?

 

"as if"?  You might be the only one that thinks that it was literally designed to target expats.  It can be a stupid/nonsense tax and affect expats, even if it's not targeted at them.

 

36 minutes ago, federicoP said:

Why are we ready to accept certain rules at home but here in Thailand we are not willing to accept them?

 

At home, paying taxes gives me some benefits and at least some of my taxes go towards things I use.  Paying taxes to Thailand does jack <deleted> for me but eat up time and money.

 

36 minutes ago, federicoP said:

we pretended it didn't exist?

 

It doesn't matter whether you call this proposal a new rule or a new interpretation, it didn't exist before, whatever it is.

 

36 minutes ago, federicoP said:

I believe that in most of the countries of origin of us expats

 

Bad comparison, anyway.  Why compare it to my home country when I already chose to leave there?  Compare it to similar options.  Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, Cambodia, Columbia, Brazil, etc.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by QuantumQuandry

[clearance]

In other countries I will get PR status and maybe health insurance for paying taxes (you actually can't live in most countries more than 183 days without PR).
What do we get in Thailand paying taxes? Not to mention the fact that we (expats) already pay VAT and foreigner prices (in hospitals for example).

 

[federicoP]

31 minutes ago, liddelljohn said:

I dont and never have had to pay  tax on any money or investments  held in any country I am not resident in ,  either in my home country of UK or my  dual citizen EU country or anywhere i have been resident  for career of 45 years   in my jobs  unless I brought that money as earned income  into resident country /

 

This is exactly what will happen in Thailand : you will pay tax if you bring your foreign income to Thailand, unless the DTA help you (and it often helps)

[The Cyclist]

15 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

I wonder if the Thai's working in the Middle East will be happy about it? They send their money back home for the family and the Middle East is essentially tax free. Tax them on what they send home and Thailand will need to have at least 250000 jobs waiting for them as I know they wont remain in the Middle East and pay tax.

 

Are you sure ?
 

Will they really pay Thai tax if they are not residents of Thailand for tax purposes ( Over the 180 day residency threshold ) ?

[Photoguy21]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

Are you sure ?
 

Will they really pay Thai tax if they are not residents of Thailand for tax purposes ( Over the 180 day residency threshold ) ?

I was talking about Thai nationals and if the government wants to get tax from them, which I hope they dont, there will be a significant number returning to Thailand.

[UWEB]

15 minutes ago, Photoguy21 said:

I was talking about Thai nationals and if the government wants to get tax from them, which I hope they dont, there will be a significant number returning to Thailand.

If they work more than 180 days abroad they are not Thai Tax Resident.

Edited December 10, 2023 by UWEB

[The Cyclist]

Just now, Photoguy21 said:

I was talking about Thai nationals and if the government wants to get tax from them, which I hope they dont, there will be a significant number returning to Thailand.

 

Yes, I understand that you are talking about Thai Nationals.

 

I am asking you if the they will pay tax on tax free ME salaries if they are non resident for tax purposes, ie, spend less than 180 days a year in Thailand.

 

Just like Nationals of most Countries keep tax free earning tax free by sticking to their Countries rules.

 

Remember this new interpretation of the rules affects people who are tax residents of Thailand, above 180 days in a tax year.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, UWEB said:

If they work more than 180 days abroad the are not Thai Tax Resident.

 

That is what I thought and why I asked the question.

 

Not just me that thinks that way then 

[Liverpool Lou]

50 minutes ago, clearance said:

In other countries I will get PR status and maybe health insurance for paying taxes (you actually can't live in most countries more than 183 days without PR).
What do we get in Thailand paying taxes?

So go to one of those other countries, then.  No one forced you to live here and Thailand has never made any promises that the benefits you want are, or will be, available here.  For paying any taxes due in Thailand you get exactly what Thailand promised you.

[Ben Zioner]

I think it is plain stupid, because sucking out more money from a weak economy to finance populist schemes is utter garbage. They should make the best use of the money they got now; eradicate corruption. If this happened I'd be happy to contribute.

[Lemsta69]

2 hours ago, federicoP said:

Do we really believe we live in a more stupid and easy country than our native one ?

 

Yes. 

[federicoP]

4 minutes ago, Lemsta69 said:

2 hours ago, federicoP said:

Do we really believe we live in a more stupid and easy country than our native one ?

 

Yes. 

 

Fortunately we can always return to our native country

[federicoP]

16 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

what the Thais are proposing but unlikey to actually implement is  contrary to all international law and dual tax treaties

 

I do not understand why it is contrary to all international law and dual tax treaties, can you explain me better ?

 

 

In my native conuntry (Italy) if you import some money from abroad you have to explain from where this money is coming and, if not covered by a TDA, you must pay tax on it.

Moreover, if you have any investement abroad, also if not generating income, you are obliged to declare it and to pay a small tax.

[Mike Lister]

56 minutes ago, federicoP said:

 

I do not understand why it is contrary to all international law and dual tax treaties, can you explain me better ?

 

 

 

It isn't, he just upset. Any sovereign state can impose whatever tax rules and regulations it wishes, end of story.

[federicoP]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It isn't, he just upset. Any sovereign state can impose whatever tax rules and regulations it wishes, end of story.

 

We are all upset, we thought we lived in a tax haven and could forget the word "tax", but suddenly we discover that this is not true.........

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, federicoP said:

 

We are all upset, we thought we lived in a tax haven and could forget the word "tax", but suddenly we discover that this is not true.........

Monaco is a tax haven, the Caymans is a tax haven, Thailand has only just recently emerged from being a third world country. Why anyone ever thought Thailand is a tax haven and that things would never change is remarkable.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

18 hours ago, federicoP said:

Why do we continue to complain about this new, more restrictive interpretation by the Revenue on a regulation that has already existed for many years and we pretended it didn't exist?

1. Because we (some of us) already paid taxes in our home country on the money we bring here. Double-taxation is wrong.

2. Because we already contribute far more to Thailand's economy than the average taxpayer. The money we inject into the Thai economy directly and indirectly keeps Thais employed. Not to mention we do pay sales taxes and other taxes directly or indirectly.

3. Because this may put a burden on expats who don't owe taxes yet will have to file and explain sources of income anyway.

 

We don't know if, and how, any of this will be enforced. Depending on how bad it is will determine how much further whining we do, as well as more drastic measures like leaving Thailand for at least 6 months a year if that's the only way to avoid double-taxation. And the stupidest part is that this isn't even going to help Thailand - on the contrary, if actually enforced it will halt the majority of overseas money flowing into the country and devastate the economy.

[sirineou]

18 hours ago, federicoP said:

I see a lot of comments about this “stupid/nonsense tax”,  as if it had been designed above all to target us expats.

Have you seen the details? if so please chare.

Even  without the details I can tell you that it is not designed to primarily target expats. 

there are an estimated 3-4 million expats living in Thailand thats 5% of the Thai population. 

If indeed this is designed to increase revenue, as they said, then you go where the money is .

And I suspect that's exactly where they will go

Now if they were lying and  what they actually are trying to do is decrease  revenue  then yes indeed, tax foreign   investment  coming into Thailand. 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

17 hours ago, clearance said:

What do we get in Thailand paying taxes?

You get a decent living that you can't get in your home country, and you possibly can't get a wife to live with you using a "wify" visa.  

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, PingRoundTheWorld said:

1. Because we (some of us) already paid taxes in our home country on the money we bring here. Double-taxation is wrong.

2. Because we already contribute far more to Thailand's economy than the average taxpayer. The money we inject into the Thai economy directly and indirectly keeps Thais employed. Not to mention we do pay sales taxes and other taxes directly or indirectly.

3. Because this may put a burden on expats who don't owe taxes yet will have to file and explain sources of income anyway.

 

We don't know if, and how, any of this will be enforced. Depending on how bad it is will determine how much further whining we do, as well as more drastic measures like leaving Thailand for at least 6 months a year if that's the only way to avoid double-taxation. And the stupidest part is that this isn't even going to help Thailand - on the contrary, if actually enforced it will halt the majority of overseas money flowing into the country and devastate the economy.

There is zero evidence that anyone is going to be taxed twice, that is the purpose of a Dual Tax Agreement.

 

The fact that many foreigners are more wealthy than the average Thai is irrelevant. Anyone who moved to Thailand to live, did so on the understanding they would abide by their laws. If at any time they don't agree with those laws, they are free to return to their own country. Comparing the wealth of a foreigner to a rural Thai is inappropriate. Pointing out that foreigners pay sales tax and VAT is also meaningless, everyone pays it so everyone is the same.

 

There is no evidence the amended law will put an extra burden on any one doesn't owe tax here other than to understand their own finances at a detail level.

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Have you seen the details? if so please chare.

Even  without the details I can tell you that it is not designed to primarily target expats. 

there are an estimated 3-4 million expats living in Thailand thats 5% of the Thai population. 

If indeed this is designed to increase revenue, as they said, then you go where the money is .

And I suspect that's exactly where they will go

Now if they were lying and  what they actually are trying to do is decrease  revenue  then yes indeed, tax foreign   investment  coming into Thailand. 

 

Nobody is trying to tax inbound FDI, for goodness sake!

[PingRoundTheWorld]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There is zero evidence that anyone is going to be taxed twice, that is the purpose of a Dual Tax Agreement.

That's another point- we're less than a month away from 2024, and still nobody knows how exactly this will be enforced or what the actual rules will look like. Just because you think they won't try to dual tax, or that there won't be additional burden, does not mean they won't. TiT.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, PingRoundTheWorld said:

That's another point- we're less than a month away from 2024, and still nobody knows how exactly this will be enforced or what the actual rules will look like. Just because you think they won't try to dual tax, or that there won't be additional burden, does not mean they won't. TiT.

If you heard this news in your own country, you'd believe and accept it without question. But because this is Thailand you suspect that somebody is going to rip you off and do something underhanded that will cost you money, that's simply paranoia that has np basis in fact or history.

[Liverpool Lou]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

foreigners pay sales tax and VAT

"sales tax and VAT"

 

What is this "sales tax" that you are bizarrely claiming foreigners pay in addition to VAT?   Perhaps you just trying to make it appear that we pay more than we actually do?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"sales tax and VAT"

 

What is this "sales tax" that you are bizarrely claiming foreigners pay in addition to VAT?   Perhaps you just trying to make it appear that we pay more than we actually do?

The complete quote, had you bothered to read it in full, is:

 

"Pointing out that foreigners pay sales tax and VAT is also meaningless, everyone pays it so everyone is the same".