Thailand Sums Up In Total 284 Deaths in New Year Seven Days of Road Safety Campaign

[kwilco]

Yes- tht is the norm, not just for Thailand but holidays al over the world.

Of course the statisitcs released so far can only be regarded at bast as a guidleline - they are nape-of-the-neck reactions by the RTP - and quite apart from their abiity to calculate some of the "causes" are just plain bizarre. YHe first thing is of course that the death staistics can rise - normally real statisitcs are not released for 6 to 12 months - there also is no preper scientific analuysis of any crasg=hes, just a local cop rubbing his chin - doubt if they even get a. tape measure out.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Bday Prang said:

the term i used to describe you was exspurt ,  note the spelling, now go to bed you have had enough,

You don't seem to realise that that isn't an argument - which kind of backs up what I was saying.

 

55 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

You are making a fool of yourself  its sad to see   you need to stop

IdF I'm making a fool of myself, I would have thought someone like you would enjoy it, but I suspect you just feel uncomfortable not understanding my point of view so you just plead "make it stop"  - you need to think why.

[Bday Prang]

Just now, kwilco said:

No, I said your comments were racist, and explained why.

You explained nothing, I said the Thais don't care in the same way as you do, and gave ample evidence to support that which you failed to mention or disprove, electing instead to express your perceived expert knowledge of road safety whilst at the same time dismissing everybody else's  input as worthless,

              Just to add a little weight to my hypothesis... I'm a bit the worse for wear myself tonight, I 've been down at the brother in laws farm for a bit of a late new years drink,  He wasn't available earlier this week as he;s a police officer, "nai roy ek"  captain or chief inspector,  his deputy was there along with a few others, and one of my other brothers in law, also a police sergeant was also there in fact we travelled together in his pick up.

               As usual a good night was had by all, i wasn't going to mention the subject, as I didn't want to bother them with work talk on their day off, and to be honest I'd had enough of it on here, but one of the more junior guys asked the others how many deaths there had been during the 7 days.

               None of them knew, and everybody burst out laughing when he was told to google it and report back on monday.

The evening drew to a close and we all returned home the same way we arrived.   No worries,   Do you get it yet?  It is just not an issue for them, what more will it take for you to understand the reality of things here

I  have however been advised to make it clear for you that I am only referring to 99.99%  of the population  there will be a small minority who care

 

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, rct99q said:

I get the feeling you could be a little too tightly wound up to be driving. I suggest before getting behind the wheel of your vehicle on your next trip, smoke a little weed, relax, I guarantee life will be more enjoyable.

 

 

You are still fixating on driving which I have already explained is not the right way to analyse road safety.

And now you are advocating intoxication in a debate about road safety. Is that what your do?

There is a common misconception (about 50% amongst cannabis users that they can drive safely after smoking. THC, the psychoactive ingredient in cannabis, can impair a person's levels of attention and their perception of time and speed, important skills you might think for driving a car. - One meta-analysis of 60 studies found that marijuana use causes impairment on every measure of safe driving, including motor-coordination, visual function and completion of complex tasks. It is also worth bearing in mind that unlike alcohol cannabis stays in the bloodstream for up to 2 weeks.

However I can tell you that II have driven way more miles than most people almost certainly you, judging by your comments - Thailand for 20 years and several vehicles. I enjoy driving  both professionally and recreationally on 4 and 2 wheels and it has been shown that I am unusually relaxed when driving much more so than in other situations. As said it isn't driving it is how you analyse and understand the whole driving environment that is important in terms of road safety - 

It is worth noting that people who find themselves getting wound up and insulting other road users - like yourself - are more probably at fault themselves than the other drivers - they just get wound up because they are unable to adapt to driving in unfamiliar circumstances - so if you are of the opinion that you are better driver than the other road users, I would suggest you need to step back take a deep breath as it is quite possible that you are the one who is in danger on Thai roads.

You might also bear in mind that many people aim their vitriol at drivers of 4-wheeled vehicles - the truth is you are more likely to die in a 4-wheeled vehicle in America than you are in Thailand. such is the skewed perception of expats in Thailand.

[Bday Prang]

26 minutes ago, kwilco said:

there also is no preper scientific analuysis of any crasg=hes, just a local cop rubbing his chin - doubt if they even get a. tape measure out.

What on earth would be the point for gods sake, 

[Bday Prang]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

It is also worth bearing in mind that unlike alcohol cannabis stays in the bloodstream for up to 2 weeks.

However I can tell you that II have driven way more miles than most people almost certainly you, judging by your comments - Thailand for 20 years and several vehicles. I enjoy driving  both professionally and recreationally on 4 and 2 wheels and it has been shown that I am unusually relaxed when driving much more so than in other situations.

Now you have instantly lost all credibility and are venturing further into matters you do not understand, THC actually has a very short half life and disappears within hours, what remains are metabolites, which are not psychoactive, It is not in the blood stream either it is stored in the fat cells until excreted.. There you have just been educated, 

                    Now you can educate me , how exactly has it been shown that you are "unusually relaxed" what ever that means,when you are driving, and what is your state of mind at other times like, ?  when posting on here for example?

[Bday Prang]

32 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You don't seem to realise that that isn't an argument - which kind of backs up what I was saying.

 

IdF I'm making a fool of myself, I would have thought someone like you would enjoy it, but I suspect you just feel uncomfortable not understanding my point of view so you just plead "make it stop"  - you need to think why.

By all means carry on, I'm perfectly comfortable,

[Bday Prang]

37 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You don't seem to realise that that isn't an argument - which kind of backs up what I was saying.

you seem to have lost the point, My assertion is that the average Thai , or actually the majority of Thais do not care as much as you do, they barely give it a second thought, its been like this since they became mobile.

Now if you think that they do care , give me a few examples to prove it ,, I gave you plenty before when I mentioned there reactions to covid

Its nothing to do with their driving skills!  

[kwilco]

15 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Now you have instantly lost all credibility and are venturing further into matters you do not understand, THC actually has a very short half life and disappears within hours, what remains are metabolites, which are not psychoactive, It is not in the blood stream either it is stored in the fat cells until excreted.. There you have just been educated, 

                    Now you can educate me , how exactly has it been shown that you are "unusually relaxed" what ever that means,when you are driving, and what is your state of mind at other times like, ?  when posting on here for example?

now youre no longer arguing the debate, you are just ad hom and sealoning.

(BTW - I undertook rests at a University in the UK as part of my training in road safety.) I don't educate peopoe you do that at university - it seems very common on this thread that people with no konwledge of road safet (or cannabis) are preapred just to say stuff based on nothing more than their lack of understanding.

Weed might be detected in your system for up to 90 days after you’ve taken the drug, depending on a number of factors, including

 

Why instead of getting sidelined don't you actually say something intelligent about road safety in Thailand - or at least go research something about it - you are arguing from a vacuum at the moment.

Edited January 6 by kwilco

[kwilco]

tp better understand the problems Thai faces, I'd suggest that people familiarise themslelves with the 5 Es of road safety.

The 5 Es of Road Safety in Thailand

 

These are basically the international tenets of the Safe System road safety method.

The 5 Es were first mentioned in Thailand at the ASEAN road safety conference about 2007 successive Thai governments have failed to adopt this as it would interfere with such things as the constitution, road building and other government interests For over 3 decades Thailand has had various “Road Safety Action Plans” and has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect) ... but without them, Road Safety in Thailand is doomed.

 

These are 5 “E”s of road safety…..

 

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

1. Education

This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users – This goes way beyond a solitary driving test when people first start driving. UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?). Education of drivers continues throughout their driving life.

The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police.

 

2. Enforcement

Again self-explanatory - but Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this, no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable applicable and equitably enforced too. The police and courts need to be trained to deal with it

 

3. Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety. It falls into 2 categories ….

 

A - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles. Active safety features are designed to prevent collisions and accidents from happening. Passive safety features, meanwhile, are meant to mitigate the damage of a collision that is unavoidable

·      Anti-locking brakes (ABS)

·      Side impact bars

·      AVCSS – “Advanced Vehicle Control and Safety Systems"

·      Electronic stability control (ESC)

·      Traction control

·      Air-bags

·      More reliable engine, tyres and components

·      Vehicle dynamics in general (they vary from UK and Thailand)

 

Of course, roadworthiness checks are vital - but totally unenforced in Thailand.

 

  B - Road Engineering -

The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junctions, road surface, camber, drainage etc.

·      The use of barriers and median (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision

·      Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it.

·      Better infrastructure and engineering

·      Better road surfaces

·      Better signage

·      More forgiving

·      Traffic calming

·      Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide.

 

Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the road authorities ALLOW it.... this is a design and engineering problem (and a cost reduction exercise),  not so much a driver problem.

 

4. Emergency

 

- What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies.

It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims.

Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!! Ambulances have no standard equipment levels and what comes to your aid at an accident could be anything from a boy-racer pickup truck through van to a partially equipped ambulance. Paramedics are seldom fully trained.

 

5. Evaluation

 

- How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented.

Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc. Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do. Statistics collected in Thailand are incomplete, amateurish and don’t eve correlate with international conventions.

[kwilco]

48 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Now you have instantly lost all credibility and are venturing further into matters you do not understand

you hope!!

[kwilco]

55 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

average Thai , or actually the majority of Thais do not care as much as you do, they barely give it a second thought, its been like this since they became mobile

there you are - racist and derogatory comment.

 

Why is it that racistis spend so much time arguing they aren't racist?

[Bday Prang]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

tp better understand the problems Thai faces, I'd suggest that people familiarise themslelves with the 5 Es of road safety.

The 5 Es of Road Safety in Thailand

 

These are basically the international tenets of the Safe System road safety method.

The 5 Es were first mentioned in Thailand at the ASEAN road safety conference about 2007 successive Thai governments have failed to adopt this as it would interfere with such things as the constitution, road building and other government interests For over 3 decades Thailand has had various “Road Safety Action Plans” and has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect) ... but without them, Road Safety in Thailand is doomed.

 

These are 5 “E”s of road safety…..

 

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

1. Education

This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users – This goes way beyond a solitary driving test when people first start driving. UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?). Education of drivers continues throughout their driving life.

The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police.

 

2. Enforcement

Again self-explanatory - but Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this, no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable applicable and equitably enforced too. The police and courts need to be trained to deal with it

 

3. Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety. It falls into 2 categories ….

 

A - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles. Active safety features are designed to prevent collisions and accidents from happening. Passive safety features, meanwhile, are meant to mitigate the damage of a collision that is unavoidable

·      Anti-locking brakes (ABS)

·      Side impact bars

·      AVCSS – “Advanced Vehicle Control and Safety Systems"

·      Electronic stability control (ESC)

·      Traction control

·      Air-bags

·      More reliable engine, tyres and components

·      Vehicle dynamics in general (they vary from UK and Thailand)

 

Of course, roadworthiness checks are vital - but totally unenforced in Thailand.

 

  B - Road Engineering -

The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junctions, road surface, camber, drainage etc.

·      The use of barriers and median (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision

·      Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it.

·      Better infrastructure and engineering

·      Better road surfaces

·      Better signage

·      More forgiving

·      Traffic calming

·      Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide.

 

Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the road authorities ALLOW it.... this is a design and engineering problem (and a cost reduction exercise),  not so much a driver problem.

 

4. Emergency

 

- What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies.

It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims.

Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!! Ambulances have no standard equipment levels and what comes to your aid at an accident could be anything from a boy-racer pickup truck through van to a partially equipped ambulance. Paramedics are seldom fully trained.

 

5. Evaluation

 

- How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented.

Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc. Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do. Statistics collected in Thailand are incomplete, amateurish and don’t eve correlate with international conventions.

All very salient points regarding road safety,, infrastructure and highway design and none of which are particularly well implemented here ,   Do you agree ?  Of course you do

Now tell me why is that the case,   Is it because the authorities and highway consultants are over concerned, I would say that's unlikely. 

 Or is it because, they , for whatever reason , are not that concerned ?       

 

 

[Bday Prang]

8 hours ago, kwilco said:

Weed might be detected in your system for up to 90 days after you’ve taken the drug, depending on a number of factors, 

As I said before, non psychoactive metabolites of THC may indeed be detected in urine for some time after ingestion, but it is no indication of intoxication, That is why the police in the UK do not conduct urine tests, as they would not be accepted as evidence of intoxication by any court.

you can argue all you like , that is an irrefutable fact, and you need to accept it

Edited January 7 by Bday Prang

[Bday Prang]

7 hours ago, kwilco said:

there you are - racist and derogatory comment.

 

Why is it that racistis spend so much time arguing they aren't racist?

I am not arguing that I am not racist,  I am asserting that the Thais do not care as much about road safety as you seem to do,  You have constantly avoided discussing that assertion.      Based on the current accident statistics would you say they are  overly concerned about road safety, or under concerned.     simple question, why can you not answer it

 I don't need to know about your personal driving skills or your advanced exspurt knowledge of road safety and highway design, that is not the issue

 

[kwilco]

11 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

I am not arguing that I am not racist,

Glad to hear it. - it explains this sweeping racist syereotype "My assertion is that the average Thai , or actually the majority of Thais do not care as much as you do, they barely give it a second thought, its been like this since they became mobile."

Edited January 7 by kwilco

[Bday Prang]

 

Are you  incapable of rational discussion ?, you have been unable to offer any facts or rational arguments to disprove my assertion which is that the sole reason, for the amount of accidents and the lack of general road safety is a lack of interest and a lack of incentive or motivation to change, to put it bluntly they don't care and they can't be arsed.   

               You have painstakingly written at length, describing in some detail  the many issues that contribute to this situation, most of which are actually valid points that I totally agree with, but none of them disprove my assertion, on the contrary they actually confirm it, let me try to explain

 

 In a previous post you referred to the   5 "E"s, do you remember ?     

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

All of the above, as you say ,are essential to road safety, or as you correctly said   " without them, Road Safety in Thailand is doomed" .  you then gave a presentation of these  points in detail highlighting their importance and lamenting their absence,  Again i don't disagree, its far from ideal to say the least. 

I'm sure you will  agree. that  all of the above are ultimately the responsibility of the government, and  previous governments, and each and every one of them has  repeatedly failed to fulfill their responsibilities to any meaningful  degree  or as you put it yourself...

 

"The 5 Es were first mentioned in Thailand at the ASEAN road safety conference about 2007 successive Thai governments have failed to adopt this as it would interfere with such things as the constitution, road building and other government interests For over 3 decades Thailand has had various “Road Safety Action Plans” and has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect)"

 

That validates my assertion fully, does it not ?    They have been talking about this since 2007 and have done nothing but pay lip service to it all, you yourself, have concluded that it is,in part, due to corruption, there will no doubt be other reasons, but the end result is the same, it is way down on their list of priorities, which means they don't really care, it's just not important to them

     

The lack of interest from  the general population means that no prospective government has ever seen fit to include it in any of their manifesto's as it is not a vote winner, its far more effective to just offer them 10000 baht each to get their vote. The two aren't necessarily  mutually exclusive , they could offer them the 10000 and safer roads, or they could have offered them the 10000 on condition that they agreed to take some training, or something,   but they did not, because again nobody would be interested,  they don't care . 

The same reason why they think nothing of undertaking tailgating running red lights, speeding etc etc its not a lack of advanced driving skills or education,its even  included in the video they watch as part of their driving test, and  its only basic common sense for god's sake,  it is scant disregard for the consequences , a lack of care

 

 Now if you are going to reply please do me the courtesy of addressing the points I have made, preferably in order and present your reasons  why you disagree, I have no need to hear about your self perceived driving skills, and your accusations of racism are water off a ducks back and are just a convenient way for you to avoid discussing the matter in question. So stick to the script , I doubt that you can but i will allow you to prove me wrong. 

 You consider my view racist , then  it must  be , but that is not what this discussion is about, and it does not mean I'm wrong , so don't waste anymore time banging that drum, address the points like I asked, if you are capable.