Thailand grants citizenship to half a million people – but not farangs

[NorthernRyland]

3 hours ago, RichardColeman said:

I am not seeing anything from the poster of this thread that deals with savings transfers - which is NOT income - merely a transfer form bank to bank

Savings before 2024 but anything earned after that point can no longer be considered savings under any time frame. Imagine trying to prove to them which money was earned in which year though. I don't see any reasonable way to asses this unless you volunteer the information.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, NorthernRyland said:

 

 

but the government here throws out laws and then never enforces them. Not even the police follow simply traffic rules. I've spoken to two family members here who don't even know about these tax rules because they don't follow forums like this.

 

people are just going to ignore this until it's put in front of their faces and then the authorities can figure out how to deal with all the delinquent expats which owe them money.

There's huge difference between ignoring traffic laws and ignoring RD laws. Would you ignore tax law if you lived in your home country!

 

Downstream, it is probable that there will be a link between visa extensions and tax clearance certificates, that law is already out there, on the books, but not enforced. When somebody says, you can't renew your visa or leave the country, until you file your tax return and pay any taxes, it focuses the mind!

[kuzmabruk]

58 minutes ago, Psychic said:

Do I have anything wrong here?

This change is primarily designed to tax Thais.  Wealthy Thais have kept funds outside Thailand and earned income that is repatriated in the year following the year in which it was earned.  This income has been tax free up until now.

 

It seems that many readers here do not understand that it is your duty as a citizen of the world to know where you are a tax resident.  Anywhere you spend 180 days between Jan1 and Dec31, you are tax resident.  It is now your duty to file tax in that country.

 

Also, if you pay tax on income in Canada, for example, but that income when reported in Thailand is taxed at a higher rate, then you report the tax paid in Canada as a deduction on your tax payable in Thailand, and pay the balance owing to the Thai tax authorities.  

[NorthernRyland]

1 hour ago, Psychic said:

Every thing purchased in Thailand is subject to tax.

Reducing the amount purchased only reduces that tax.

It's been well document for many years that increasing tax rates can result in reducing tax revenue. If it's too heavy handed people will leave for 6 months and spend less money overall in Thailand thus hurting tax revenue and local economies. That's the gamble they're taking.

[Mike Lister]

Today, I went to my banks and picked up certificates from them stating how much interest they paid me last year and how much tax was with held. I already know details of my pension income for last year so I know that I don't owe any tax. Nevertheless, I still have to file the return because I am over the earnings threshold plus I have income that arises in Thailand. 

 

Having made the simple calculations on a spread sheet, I've factored in my allowances, deductions and exemptions so I know what the bottom line is. Zero Tax Due. This week or next I'll go down to the RD office and file my tax return. I'll tell the lady there what I want to do. She will fire up her PC, call up my tax account on line and start entering the data I give her. We'll chat about her kids, she'll offer me a coffee and fifteen minutes later we're all done for a another year and I'll leave. It's as simple as that.

[Lacessit]

I am guessing we will know more when retirees start doing their extensions over the next six months. Maybe then there will be some clarity as to whether Immigration is co-ordinating with the tax authorities.

 

How they are going to deal with people brandishing copies of their DTA's, proof of pensions being paid in their home country, and those shuffling in and out of Thailand will be interesting.

 

I suspect there are quite a few Thai tax accountants rubbing their hands in glee.

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Today, I went to my banks and picked up certificates from them stating how much interest they paid me last year and how much tax was with held. I already know details of my pension income for last year so I know that I don't owe any tax. Nevertheless, I still have to file the return because I am over the earnings threshold plus I have income that arises in Thailand. 

 

Having made the simple calculations on a spread sheet, I've factored in my allowances, deductions and exemptions so I know what the bottom line is. Zero Tax Due. This week or next I'll go down to the RD office and file my tax return. I'll tell the lady there what I want to do. She will fire up her PC, call up my tax account on line and start entering the data I give her. We'll chat about her kids, she'll offer me a coffee and fifteen minutes later we're all done for a another year and I'll leave. It's as simple as that.

Permit me to doubt it will be that simple for many posters.

Most Western pensions are over the earnings threshold, it's a question of whether Thailand will observe the DTA's in place.

 

[NorthernRyland]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There's huge difference between ignoring traffic laws and ignoring RD laws. Would you ignore tax law if you lived in your home country!

 

Downstream, it is probable that there will be a link between visa extensions and tax clearance certificates, that law is already out there, on the books, but not enforced. When somebody says, you can't renew your visa or leave the country, until you file your tax return and pay any taxes, it focuses the mind!

I guess I just can't see this happening so I'm biding my time. It's such a radical change to immigration to require people to hire an accountant to quality for a visa. The chance this fizzles out and dies is high in my opinion so I'd rather ignore it and pay fines when and if it actually happens. Not prudent I know but this is just too out there, even for Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am guessing we will know more when retirees start doing their extensions over the next six months. Maybe then there will be some clarity as to whether Immigration is co-ordinating with the tax authorities.

 

How they are going to deal with people brandishing copies of their DTA's, proof of pensions being paid in their home country, and those shuffling in and out of Thailand will be interesting.

 

I suspect there are quite a few Thai tax accountants rubbing their hands in glee.

I think the news will start to emerge slowly in the course of the year, it's typical of how many changes are made here. There has been one report from Chonburi where a foreigner was asked if tax had been paid on the 65k a month income method used to extend his visa but this is purely anecdotal at this stage. We have also heard that each RD office is recruiting a lawyer for each office to specialize in overseas tax. We heard this information from somebody who is married to  a Thai who is a lawyer and had applied for a job.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Permit me to doubt it will be that simple for many posters.

Most Western pensions are over the earnings threshold, it's a question of whether Thailand will observe the DTA's in place.

 

Possibly, but most don't need to worry about this until first quarter next year when the first tax return under the new rule is due.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

I guess I just can't see this happening so I'm biding my time. It's such a radical change to immigration to require people to hire an accountant to quality for a visa. The chance this fizzles out and dies is high in my opinion so I'd rather ignore it and pay fines when and if it actually happens. Not prudent I know but this is just too out there, even for Thailand.

Nobody needs to hire an accountant to qualify for a visa, neither will they

[jesimps]

1 hour ago, connda said:

"...the rules are not yet clear."  And therein lies the problem.

Personally I don't see a problem other than paperwork shuffles and visa extension delays if Thai immigration is tasked with reviewing the tax returns of long-stay expats.  Now, there is a potential horror show.







 

The show has potentially already started. I read earlier on here that we need to obtain a number from the local tax office (wherever that might be) for which we'll need our passport with up to date visa and an address verification letter, which in the case of Jomtien Immigration, requires two trips to that dreadful place, plus forking out 300 baht or maybe more next time. Goodness know what other bits of paper we'd have to collect if they make our annual visa dependant on having our tax declarations approved. I;m already providing them with a small rain forest each time I renew my marriage visa.

Edited January 8 by jesimps

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jesimps said:

The show has potentially already started. I read earlier on here that we need to obtain a number from the local tax office (wherever that might be) for which we'll need our passport with up to date visa and an address verification letter, which in the case of Jomtien Immigration, requires two trips to that dreadful place, plus forking out 300 bahts or maybe more next time. Goodness know what other bits of paper we'd have to collect if they make our annual visa dependant on having our tax declarations approved.

Calm down. I wrote in the document that in order to file a tax return you will need a TIN Tax ID Number. In order to get a TIN you will need the things you mentioned. So no, the linkage between Immigration and the Revenue (the show) has not started and probably wont for some time, if ever.

[Dan747]

My plan from the USA is to stay less than 180 days to avoid all-"Good Luck!!

[jesimps]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Calm down. I wrote in the document that in order to file a tax return you will need a TIN Tax ID Number. In order to get a TIN you will need the things you mentioned. So no, the linkage between Immigration and the Revenue (the show) has not started and probably wont for some time, if ever.

"Calm down"? You a Scouser? 

Sitting here in the aircon sipping my scotch, I couldn't be more relaxed. Just pointing out the possibility of having to run around collecting more useless bits of paper to hump along to immigration.

Edited January 8 by jesimps

[Guavaman]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

If the only income coming into Thailand  is from SS, there is 0 assessable income.

 

We -- the inhabitants of this forum/thread -- have still not understood the most fundamental term/meaning upon which the entire Thai income taxation system is based: Assessable Income.

 

Section 39 In this Chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:

Assessable income means income that is taxable under this Chapter. Such income also includes a property or any other benefit received which may be computed into a monetary value.

 

"Assessable" income that is taxable may be computed into a monetary value.

 

* The unstated implication is that income that may NOT be computed into a monetary value is NOT assessable. The Thai Tax Code does not address the concept of non-assessable income.

 

How the RD deals with US Social Security under the DTA as policy implemented at local levels remains to be seen. 

 

[Guavaman]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

If the only income coming into Thailand  is from SS, there is 0 assessable income...and therefore no need to file a tax return or pay tax in Thailand.

Please provide your sources of authority on stating that: 

1)  Social security benefit payments are NOT assessable income according to Thai RD

2) No need to file a tax return, if no tax payable.

 

Then we can jointly consider the implications for us taxpayers. 

 

This could be good news for many of us.

[persimmon]

1 hour ago, Dan747 said:

My plan from the USA is to stay less than 180 days to avoid all-"Good Luck!!

I wonder what would happen in the case of someone on a TV who inadvertently stayed 181 days . Would there be any problems exiting the country , or returning in future ? I can imagine it could get very expensive if the RD demanded a tax return based on total worldwide income . A powerful reason not to stay more than 180 days .

[Phulublub]

6 hours ago, sambum said:

And if I should have to pay TAX in Thailand, presumably I will also be entitled to subsidised HEALTH CARE? 

And be given a Thai ID card without any hassle?

[LikeItHot]

Everyone is saying the single personal allowance deduction is 60000 but the link to deductions say 30000.  Which is correct?

 

[Phulublub]

3 hours ago, Psychic said:

So if I have this right I need to extend my time out of Thailand to 6 months avoid this entirely.

And if foreign money is only taxable if it is brought into Thailand then there is a disincentive to bring large amounts of money into Thailand.

 

I just don't see how any of these options benefits the Thai government.

Every thing purchased in Thailand is subject to tax.

Reducing the amount purchased only reduces that tax.

Add to that the fact this will further discourage new retirees coming to the country and spending significant sums and this just seems an absurd policy and a violation of the principle of no double taxation.

 

Do I have anything wrong here?

 

 

Yes.  You appear to think these measures are aimed at expats, when they are aimed at Thais who work overseas and send money home tax-free and wealthy Thais who "manage" the system.  That we are (may be) caught up in this is, perhaps, collateral damage.  Or it may not affect us at all.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

2 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

It's been well document for many years that increasing tax rates can result in reducing tax revenue. If it's too heavy handed people will leave for 6 months and spend less money overall in Thailand thus hurting tax revenue and local economies. That's the gamble they're taking.

Another who thinks this is aimed at us.  It is not.  In the broader scheme of the thai economy, a few grumbling expats staying or leaving is a rounding error in the overall fiscal numbers.

 

PH

[LikeItHot]

7 hours ago, nickmondo said:

you DO NOT need to submit a tax return unless the Thai Gov tell you to apply for a tax number.

Do NOTHING.

Precisely.  They know exactly where I am. They have my email address and phone number. I just did a 90 report and provided both as I always do even though not required just in case they want to give me a call. They made me sign a very specific form confirming I cannot work here.  They never said anything about taxes.  If they do I'll deal with it then from that day forward and not retroactively.  

[MangoKorat]

16 hours ago, CharlieH said:

16. The proceeds from the sale of a capital item such as overseas property, where funds are remitted to Thailand, is one popular source of funds

In previous threads on this subject, many have said that the Thai authorities are in fact, 'shooting themselves in the foot' with these policies.  None more so than on the above.  How many people have sold their house in their home countries, moved to Thailand and bought a home?  In the UK there is no tax of any sort on your home - provided you nominate it as your residence if you own other properties.  I don't remember seeing anything in the DTA between the UK and Thailand on that subject so presume that those who sell their house back home and bring the cash into Thailand are very likely to be taxed on that.  Who's going to do that now?

[MangoKorat]

17 hours ago, CharlieH said:

UK State pension on the other hand is not covered by a DTA so it is assessable income in Thailand whilst UK Government or Civil Service pensions are not!

More foot shooting.

[Guavaman]

21 minutes ago, LikeItHot said:

Everyone is saying the single personal allowance deduction is 60000 but the link to deductions say 30000.  Which is correct?

It appears that you have accessed this (outdated) regarding information about Personal Income Tax (PIT) here:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

All of the amounts in all of the tables are OUTDATED.

 

The first & most important point to learn about the Thai tax system is this:

 

NEVER trust any information in an unofficial translation on the Revenue Department website.

 

For example, the webpage referenced = Last updated: 23.11.2020

 

A seeker will find other outdated references and amounts stated on the RD webpages.

 

This is Thailand: What you see is only the tip of an enormous iceberg.

 

Suggestion: Find 3 "reliable sources" (not including the Revenue Department) that all match, then you might be getting close to what the experts in Bangkok agree upon. Regarding what Somchai in the local district Revenue Office understands --- Welcome to Wonderland!

[Guavaman]

33 minutes ago, LikeItHot said:

They know exactly where I am. They have my email address and phone number. I just did a 90 report and provided both as I always do even though not required just in case they want to give me a call. They made me sign a very specific form confirming I cannot work here.  They never said anything about taxes.  If they do I'll deal with it then from that day forward and not retroactively.  

I have never received any direct communication from the tax authority in my native country informing me that I was subject to tax laws, or any other laws. 

 

As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[chickenslegs]

I am a UK pensioner living with a Thai wife and our 12-year-old daughter in Thailand.

 

During 2023 I have been remitting 90 - 110kTHB each month into Thailand from my private pension. In addition I have been remitting 28kTHB each month into Thailand from my UK State pension, which I deposit into a fund for my daughter's education.

 

UK income tax has been deducted from all my UK income.

 

This year (2024) I will remit only the minimum amount to satisfy my extension of stay (65,000 THB). I will continue to invest the 28k into my daughter's education fund, but I will keep it in a UK savings account. 

 

My question to the experts is: If I pay for goods and services directly from my UK bank/credit union/building society (for school fees, household goods, wine, groceries, etc) will that be classed as assessable income?

 

For example, I recently paid about 6000THB online for half a case of wine. The payment was made using Wise transfer from my UK account. Would this be classed as assessable income ?

[timendres]

6 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

If I remember correctly, you have stock market investments... is that in some way taxable? 

 

And if you bring money into Thailand, how is it determined if it is money that you made in previous years and is sitting in USA savings? I have stock, T-bills, money market accounts... all my money is from long standing accounts... 

 

The only money I bring into Thailand will be my social security. So it is simple for me. If you are bringing in other money, you will likely have to do the double tax agreement stuff to offset any potential Thailand tax with the taxes you paid to the US Treasury. I suspect I will still be required to file a return to show the social security and claim that I owe nothing. PITA, but what can you do?

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

In previous threads on this subject, many have said that the Thai authorities are in fact, 'shooting themselves in the foot' with these policies.  None more so than on the above.  How many people have sold their house in their home countries, moved to Thailand and bought a home?  In the UK there is no tax of any sort on your home - provided you nominate it as your residence if you own other properties.  I don't remember seeing anything in the DTA between the UK and Thailand on that subject so presume that those who sell their house back home and bring the cash into Thailand are very likely to be taxed on that.  Who's going to do that now?

The UK taxes the sale of immovable property with a Capital Gains tax for non-residents. Anyone who lives overseas and rents out their UK property and then later sells it, must file Capital Gains return.