New Thai Tax On Remittances??

[freeworld]

20 hours ago, Will B Good said:

I can see that happening........it seems an obvious and easy avenue for them to pursue us and try to claim tax.

Pure supposition. Immigration already have their financial rules to support a stay in Thailand

 

Tax is dealt with by the tax office. If they have problem with tax payers they deal with them by themselves or through the legal system, and use their own in place existing rules how to control deliquent tax payers, just as it works in many other countries.

Edited January 22 by freeworld

[jayboy]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:45 AM, Mike Lister said:

Thanks, yes, except anyone who needs to file this year, should still do so, before end march.

 

Please be aware that there are different opinions on 'who needs to file this year'. The consensus view is that resident retirees with no Thai income do not but they may well have to next year depending on their circumstances.

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Please be aware that there are different opinions on 'who needs to file this year'. The consensus view is that resident retirees with no Thai income do not but they may well have to next year depending on their circumstances.

I disagree with that view and I'm certain the revenue code disagrees too. But I'm not prepared to go back through this discussion loop. Expats here using the income method using income earned on the year it was remitted are required to file under current law, that's a simple fact. If they chose not to file, that's up to them.

 

[jayboy]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I disagree with that view and I'm certain the revenue code disagrees too. But I'm not prepared to go back through this discussion loop. Expats here using the income method using income earned on the year it was remitted are required to file under current law, that's a simple fact. If they chose not to file, that's up to them.

 

 

Misleading advice in my view and I think he is well aware of that.If in doubt check with top tier accountancy firms - though it's all rather pointless now.We know what revenue code says but as in every jurisdiction there is a need to know practical implications.

 

For avoidance of doubt we are talking about a specific group of expatriates - retired, no Thai income, resident 180 days+. As we all know situation changes - in practical terms - in 2024 tax year.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

Misleading advice in my view and I think he is well aware of that.If in doubt check with top tier accountancy firms - though it's all rather pointless now.We know what revenue code says but as in every jurisdiction there is a need to know practical implications.

 

For avoidance of doubt we are talking about a specific group of expatriates - retired, no Thai income, resident 180 days+. As we all know situation changes - in practical terms - in 2024 tax year.

 

 

You surprise me, very much. You will recall that the whole purpose of the rule change is to prevent people from avoiding tax, by earning money in one year and remitting it in another, a rule that took effect 1 Jan. So, people who earned money last year and remitted it last year, are taxable on that income. It's a basic premise of all of these discussions on tax, in every thread. However is any of that misleading?

[Presnock]

22 hours ago, fulhamster said:

How could the Thai taxman get access to your bank details in your home country ?

I would quite happily declare that my funds are savings/inheritance but that would be it.

 

If HSBC gave my details to anyone sure they would be in breach of even basic banking regs.

 

Well, if your bank is based in one of the signatories of the OECD agreement in July of last year, that is exactly what HSBC will be required to do..BTW China was a signatory of that agreement too.

[Robin]

I am a retiree from UK, lived in Thailand with wife  for some years on Retirement visa, all very happy with life until this came along.  I do not like uncertainty.

As a precaution, before 1/1//2024, I transferred US$50,000to my Thil bank account, with no problems, so with wife's income from rice fields and beauty shop, we can go on living in Thailand.  

My questions are for the future;  I have property in UK, now rented out, and income kept in UK (taxes paid)  My intention ha always been to sell this property and live out my life on the capital, perhaps transferred to Thailand.

Will money from sale of UK property owned before 2023 be considered income?  Like most property in UK, there could be a sizeable capital gain on the sale.  Saving?  Income?  How will this be decided?

If all the proceeds of the sales are kept in a Asset management Account, does it become savings or income?

Say the money was kept in UK bank offering me a credit card, and I spend in Thailand mainly on this card. is that expenditure taxable income or not?

Do I need a reliable  Thai Tax Consultant to give me these answers?  Can someone on AN suggest such a person?

I have never had any contact with Thai RD or been given a Tax umber and I was hoping to keep it that way.  Wife has income from growing Rice but has never files a tax return.

This whole idea of Sreettha's appears to be a good way of getting Retirees out of Thailand, and possibly counterproductive, 

[jayboy]

21 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So, people who earned money last year and remitted it last year, are taxable on that income. It's a basic premise of all of these discussions on tax, in every thread.

 

The Revenue Code content is well known and has not changed for many years.Thailand was quite correct to address the anomaly particularly as current and past taxable income was obviously fungible.

 

However we are talking about tax returns.For the group under discussion - defined in my posts - it is wrong to suggest they must submit a tax return for 2023 even if they remitted last year from current income.They will need to in the future almost certainly.

 

The objective on this forum should be to give sound practical advice - often to people who don't have much experience in tax matters.The fact that some submitted returns in the past is not relevant.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

The Revenue Code content is well known and has not changed for many years.Thailand was quite correct to address the anomaly particularly as current and past taxable income was obviously fungible.

 

However we are talking about tax returns.For the group under discussion - defined in my posts - it is wrong to suggest they must submit a tax return for 2023 even if they remitted last year from current income.They will need to in the future almost certainly.

 

The objective on this forum should be to give sound practical advice - often to people who don't have much experience in tax matters.The fact that some submitted returns in the past is not relevant.

There is nothing in the revenue code to say foriegners are excluded and no official source has ever said they are, some have merely assumed they didn't have to, that's all. Sound legal advice at present is that those people should file, unless anyone can post a link confirming they should not.

[Will B Good]

2 hours ago, freeworld said:

Pure supposition. Immigration already have their financial rules to support a stay in Thailand

 

Tax is dealt with by the tax office. If they have problem with tax payers they deal with them by themselves or through the legal system, and use their own in place existing rules how to control deliquent tax payers, just as it works in many other countries.

So you just don't tell the DR you even exist? ......and immigration won't tell them because have their own rules?

[Will B Good]

10 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Generally Yes.

But

UK will always have tax rights on a Government pension.

If you are in Thailand almost all the time year after.year, ThRD could claim priority taxing rights on some things, under article 4 of the DTA

Someone recently noted they asked their tax office, and they said ok with either way, which suggests some flexibility. 

Don't think it would work more than an initial year for dividends and interest and the like, as they are generally not taxed at source, and even dividends from ISA's (tax free in UK) would be taxed in Thailand if sent / remitted there. 

 

The bit you mention and DTA article 23 3) refers, to tax credit of UK tax against Thai Tax ( where applicable)

I've always understood that as I am "domiciled" in the UK.....I will always pay UK tax on UK income regardless of where in the world I live and for how many days a year I live there....is that correct?

[freeworld]

40 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

So you just don't tell the DR you even exist? ......and immigration won't tell them because have their own rules?

How does immigration become involved as the tax collector and how do they know if immigrants/visitors have taxable income so why would they be reporting anyone to the tax office.

 

As it works in most places and the law, the onus is on the individual to declare assessable income according to the rules to the tax office. Not doing so is in contravention of the law.

 

Of course the tax office can reintroduce their tax clearance certificate rules with immigration border control before long stayers depart from Thailand.

Edited January 22 by freeworld

[Will B Good]

35 minutes ago, freeworld said:

How does immigration become involved as the tax collector and how do they know if immigrants/visitors have taxable income so why would they be reporting anyone to the tax office.

They ask to see a copy of your tax return as one of the documents you have to supply for an extension (in triplicate of course)......

[freeworld]

5 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

They ask to see a copy of your tax return as one of the documents you have to supply for an extension (in triplicate of course)......

Since when? or is it just an assumption.

[Will B Good]

15 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Since when? or is it just an assumption.

No...in the future......... now that expats will be expected to file a tax return.

[Hokeus]

Presumably much of people's income that was already taxed abroad won't be taxed  again in Thailand because Thailand has double taxation agreements with at least 61 countries:

 

What is a double tax agreement?

Double taxation occurs when two or more different jurisdictions are taxing the same declared income.

This can happen when an individual or a company resides and operates in more than one country and is mitigated by double tax agreements between countries. As a result, the income will be taxed only once.

If an individual generates income in Thailand but does not have a permanent establishment in the country, the income on business profits is subject to an exemption.

Only interest, dividends and royalties may be taxed in the country in which the income arises if there is no permanent establishment.

Additionally, the withholding taxes on payments of income to foreign juristic entities not carrying on business in Thailand may be reduced or exempted under the double tax agreement.

[freeworld]

5 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

No...in the future......... now that expats will be expected to file a tax return.

Could you post the official govt statement and provide a link to that please.

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

There is nothing in the revenue code to say foriegners are excluded

 

Nobody has said otherwise

 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

no official source has ever said they are

 

Nobody has suggested this

 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Sound legal advice at present is that those people should file

Simply not true.You simply don't have the evidence to support this. A decent lawyer unlike a "by the books" accountant understands the art of the possible.

 

I'm intrigued, though only mildly because the issue isn't really active, why you keep digging yourself further into a hole.

[Mike Lister]

15 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Nobody has said otherwise

 

 

Nobody has suggested this

 

Simply not true.You simply don't have the evidence to support this. A decent lawyer unlike a "by the books" accountant understands the art of the possible.

 

I'm intrigued, though only mildly because the issue isn't really active, why you keep digging yourself further into a hole.

This is the same circuitous non sensicle argument that sent this thread round in circles and got it locked the last time. There is no explicit verbiage to say a foreigner must file when they only have overseas pension income, ergo they don't have to file.......it's nonesence and most rational understand that, the debate only confused people further.

[Will B Good]

56 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Could you post the official govt statement and provide a link to that please.

Not a link, but Mike is the expert here....

[jayboy]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

This is the same circuitous non sensicle argument that sent this thread round in circles and got it locked the last time. There is no explicit verbiage to say a foreigner must file when they only have overseas pension income, ergo they don't have to file.......it's nonesence and most rational understand that, the debate only confused people further

 

I have no idea what this word salad is meant to convey.It doesn't really address any of the specific issues raised.Anyway enough is enough - for me anyway - and the position on tax returns in the past is  I think now clear enough.It would be ungracious not to acknowledge Mike's work on the tax issue in general for this forum.I do appreciate if one has for years submitted tax returns albeit unnecessarily and as part of tiny minority one looks for ways to justify it.Fair enough - it's not a big deal

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

 

I have no idea what this word salad is meant to convey.It doesn't really address any of the specific issues raised.Anyway enough is enough - for me anyway - and the position on tax returns in the past is  I think now clear enough.It would be ungracious not to acknowledge Mike's work on the tax issue in general for this forum.I do appreciate if one has for years submitted tax returns albeit unnecessarily and as part of tiny minority one looks for ways to justify it.Fair enough - it's not a big deal

I think you confuse what the tax.code says with what you wish it would say 

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, Will B Good said:

I've always understood that as I am "domiciled" in the UK.....I will always pay UK tax on UK income regardless of where in the world I live and for how many days a year I live there....is that correct?

No Yes or no answer as far as I have read. 

Inheritance tax if you don't apply not to be domiciled elsewhere, (after many many years) sounds like it would maybe be a yes

But for income yes or no, as in you cant apply for relief on UK Tax using the DT-individual Form against pensions, but maybe you could apply for a NT Tax code for a private pension, so the tax tax is not deducted at Source, if you are permanently out of the UK year after year?.

Depends 

 

 

p.s. Government pensions on the list only taxed in the UK though.

"Article 19 Governmental Services...

(2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State."

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040
 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/english_e.pdf

Edited January 22 by UKresonant

[persimmon]

Would money brought in from the sale of a house be taxed ? In the UK , the sale of a domestic property attracts no CGT , so is a very good way of accumulating wealth over the long term . Not so good though if it`s taxed when transferred to Thailand .

[JimHuaHin]

Assuming one is a tax resident of Thailand.

 

Someone posted on another thread (and I forget whom) that if one uses a foreign credit card to purchase goods/services in Thailand then the amount of the purchase is classed as a taxable remittance.  Fair enough.  But is that always the case?

 

Consider; if the person concerned, shall we say me, uses my foreign credit card to make such as purchase in Thailand, but I pay the credit card debt using funds from my overseas bank account (attached to my credit card) acquired before 1 January 2024, funds which I understand are now not taxable when remitted to Thailand, then there is no tax liability related to the purchase.  But, if the funds used to pay the credit card debt were acquired after 1 January 2024, then the purchase is classed as a taxable remittance.

 

Is my reasoning here sound?

[Robin]

How do you ever get to the end of this thread?  Nothing but endless adverts after the first page.   

Whgat I hav read so far answers many questions, but not all, and I would like to follow it to the end.

I would pay for a AN now option  without aadverts

 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, JimHuaHin said:

Assuming one is a tax resident of Thailand.

 

Someone posted on another thread (and I forget whom) that if one uses a foreign credit card to purchase goods/services in Thailand then the amount of the purchase is classed as a taxable remittance.  Fair enough.  But is that always the case?

 

Consider; if the person concerned, shall we say me, uses my foreign credit card to make such as purchase in Thailand, but I pay the credit card debt using funds from my overseas bank account (attached to my credit card) acquired before 1 January 2024, funds which I understand are now not taxable when remitted to Thailand, then there is no tax liability related to the purchase.  But, if the funds used to pay the credit card debt were acquired after 1 January 2024, then the purchase is classed as a taxable remittance.

 

Is my reasoning here sound?

No, I don't think so, but you do get an A+ for effort. :)

 

I think that when you made your purchase in Thailand you effectively exchanged money for goods or service in Thailand, that would almost certainly be the taxable event - you agreed to buy, the seller agreed to sell, you provided remuneration for goods or services received. The fact the money you paid was on credit is not material, neither was the source or location of the funds you used to settle the credit line.

 

Queue the challenges.....:))

 

[Will B Good]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

No, I don't think so, but you do get an A+ for effort. :)

 

I think that when you made your purchase in Thailand you effectively exchanged money for goods or service in Thailand, that would almost certainly be the taxable event - you agreed to buy, the seller agreed to sell, you provided remuneration for goods or services received. The fact the money you paid was on credit is not material, neither was the source or location of the funds you used to settle the credit line.

 

Queue the challenges.....:))

 

So not only do you have to pay 'normal' tax on the goods or services you receive (VAT say)......you are then expected to pay tax on the money used to pay for the goods or services?........Does that happen anywhere else in the world?

Edited January 24 by Will B Good

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

So not only do you have to pay 'normal' tax on the goods or services you receive (VAT say)......you are then expected to pay tax on the money used to pay for the goods or services?........Does that happen anywhere else in the world?

You could reclaim the VAT at the airport.

 

But to be clear, all of this is a very hypothetical scenario and represents only a technical view. I just don't believe that credit card users in Thailand are going to come up on the RD radar as a result of these purchases, nor that taxpayers will be obliged to declare them.

[Negita43]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I think that when you made your purchase in Thailand you effectively exchanged money for goods or service in Thailand, that would almost certainly be the taxable event - you agreed to buy, the seller agreed to sell, you provided remuneration for goods or services received. The fact the money you paid was on credit is not material, neither was the source or location of the funds you used to settle the credit line.

A slight variation I use a debit card (UK) to pay for medical bills:

1. If I can prove the money was in the bank account before 01/24 will that be taxable?

2. Are medical bills tax deductible?