Tax on Pensions

[The Cyclist]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Nothing you do would surprise me.

 

To summarize, your assessable income was over 120k but because filing would have resulted in a nill return, you were told not to file, is that correct?

 

 

 

Try reading my post on page 1, it really is self explanitory.

 

Try reading  my reply to @JimGant that you previously quoted, it is also self explanitory.

 

Assessable income, tax thresholds, deductions,  or any other guff,  was not discussed.

 

2 x UK pensions, both taxed in the UK and told no need to file anything.

 

That really was the extent of the conversation.

 

You appear to be asking a lot of questions, that someone of your supposed expertise should already know.

 

It may also be of no assistance to other posters unless they are also potentially going to use Pak Chong RD Office. Once the RD extract the finger and issue further guidance.

[Mike Lister]

39 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Try reading my post on page 1, it really is self explanitory.

 

Try reading  my reply to @JimGant that you previously quoted, it is also self explanitory.

 

Assessable income, tax thresholds, deductions,  or any other guff,  was not discussed.

 

2 x UK pensions, both taxed in the UK and told no need to file anything.

 

That really was the extent of the conversation.

 

You appear to be asking a lot of questions, that someone of your supposed expertise should already know.

 

It may also be of no assistance to other posters unless they are also potentially going to use Pak Chong RD Office. Once the RD extract the finger and issue further guidance.

Thank you for your kind and helpful post.

[Presnock]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:22 PM, Mike Lister said:

Just one teeny weeny bit of tax law for you to ignore or digest:

 

When to Apply for  TIN (Tax Identification Number)

 

"Within 60 days from the date he derives assessable income".

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

I notice and since Mike Lister seems to be the most knowledgeable among our ex-pats using this forum, I see he quoted about the applying for a tax number within 60 days from the date he derives ("""here is he most important thing for me"") ASSESSABLE income.  Since I only have for the

last 19 years received a US government pension as my annual income and will not ever add anything  else, I will never have any assessable income so I therefore do not plan to get a TIN.  However, since Mike is also the first to tell all, that we don't know all the facts about this new interpretation of an old law, and it turns out that they alter this particular phrase to delete the "assessable" part and require us to get a TIN if we make so much money then in order to have any possible immigration problems in the future, I just may get a  TIN after I discuss this with the RD folks in the future.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I notice and since Mike Lister seems to be the most knowledgeable among our ex-pats using this forum, I see he quoted about the applying for a tax number within 60 days from the date he derives ("""here is he most important thing for me"") ASSESSABLE income.  Since I only have for the

last 19 years received a US government pension as my annual income and will not ever add anything  else, I will never have any assessable income so I therefore do not plan to get a TIN.  However, since Mike is also the first to tell all, that we don't know all the facts about this new interpretation of an old law, and it turns out that they alter this particular phrase to delete the "assessable" part and require us to get a TIN if we make so much money then in order to have any possible immigration problems in the future, I just may get a  TIN after I discuss this with the RD folks in the future.

I don't think what you describe is a real issue, I don't think you have anything to worry about 

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Thank you for your kind and helpful post.

 

You are welcome. I tend to treat people as I find them

 

Lovely lunch and then stopped off and picked up this

 

 

Couple of slices of cheesecake for laters.

[JimGant]

8 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Assessable income, tax thresholds, deductions,  or any other guff,  was not discussed.

 

Huh? Apparently, the only thing discussed were your two UK pensions, excluded from Thai taxes via DTA. And you say there was no discussion about assessable income, which would be any private pensions you have. But I would think your prime reason for visiting the tax office was to determine whether or not such private (and/or state) pensions were subject to Thai taxation, and, as such, met the threshold for having to file a Thai tax return.....?  Anyway, you left the tax office fat, dumb, and happy -- and your trip report is meaningless, except to you. 

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't think what you describe is a real issue, I don't think you have anything to worry about 

Yeah, not really worried, if pressured about taxes to be deducted here, I would just go the LTR visa as I can meet the criteria for that.

[Mike Lister]

10 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Huh? Apparently, the only thing discussed were your two UK pensions, excluded from Thai taxes via DTA. And you say there was no discussion about assessable income, which would be any private pensions you have. But I would think your prime reason for visiting the tax office was to determine whether or not such private (and/or state) pensions were subject to Thai taxation, and, as such, met the threshold for having to file a Thai tax return.....?  Anyway, you left the tax office fat, dumb, and happy -- and your trip report is meaningless, except to you. 

I'm still very keen to understand the basis on which a tax filing wasn't necessary, was it because the funds were already taxed overseas, what was contained in the DTA or because of the amount involved. If you ever find out, perhaps you'll let me know because it's key for many other people also.

[The Cyclist]

14 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Huh? Apparently, the only thing discussed were your two UK pensions, excluded from Thai taxes via DTA.

 

Huh

I will take it from that comment that your reading and comprehension abilities are severely lacking.

 

Quote

To my way of thinking

 

Government Pension, covered by DTA and not assessable income.

 

Private Pension, not covered by a DTA and might be considered assessable income.

 

 

I will try and make it even more simple for you.

 

It took less than 5 minutes to say " Mr RD Man, I have these 2 UK pensions, tax paid in the UK, Do I need to file anything ? "

 

The reply from Mr RD Man meant that no further discussion was required.

[The Cyclist]

 

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm still very keen to understand the basis on which a tax filing wasn't necessary, was it because the funds were already taxed overseas, what was contained in the DTA or because of the amount involved.

 

I went to RD Office with 1 solitary aim. To find out if I needed to file anything for tax year 2023. I did not go there for a 6 hour Q&A session on the intricacies of Thai Tax Rules and Regulations

 

* That I doubted very much if income taxed in home Country would be taxed again n Thailand.

 

* DTA's were not mentioned and only 1 pension would be covered by a DTA

 

* The combined amount of both pensions would be 6 figures on a monthly basis.

 

Therefore, it is doubtfull that DTA's or amounts had any significance in the RD's answer.

 

They may well have done, but a " No need to file anything " was good enough for me.

 

** A Moderator has removed the antagonistic and unnecessary parts of this post.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Since you are so concerned about helping other people.

 

Might I suggest you compile a list of questions, buy a box of doughnuts and go to your. nearest RD Office and ask them for answers.

 

They are, according to you, very helpful, and should only be too happy to assist you.

 

Absolutely no point in scratching your head and coming out with

 

 

I went to RD Office with 1 solitary aim. To find out if I needed to file anything for tax year 2023. I did not go there for a 6 hour Q&A session on the intricacies of Thai Tax Rules and Regulations

 

I have already stated, across various threads, multiple times.

 

* That I doubted very much if income taxed in home Country would be taxed again n Thailand.

 

* DTA's were not mentioned and only 1 pension would be covered by a DTA

 

* The combined amount of both pensions would be 6 figures on a monthly basis.

 

Therefore, it is doubtfull that DTA's or amounts had any significance in the RD's answer.

 

They may well have done, but a " No need to file anything " was good enough for me.

If I read you correctly, you're saying that RD told you not to file, YOU believe this was solely because your pensions had already been taxed in the UK although the RD staff didn't say so?

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If I read you correctly, you're saying that RD told you not to file, YOU believe this was solely because your pensions had already been taxed in the UK although the RD staff didn't say so?

 

No, you are not reading me correctly and do not try and put words in my mouth.

 

I have no idea why Pak Chong RD told me I had no need to file anything. And just for the benefit of any doubt I have no idea if the same will apply to other RD Offices.

 

I thought this was quite clear and explicit

 

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

They may well have done, but a " No need to file anything " was good enough for me.

 

Simple common sense tells me that income taxed in home Country is highly unlikely to be taxed again in Thailand. Which is why I have posted it multiple times, long before I went to the RD Office.

 

Whether that comes in the form of exemptions, tax credits or some other method remains to be seen.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

No, you are not reading me correctly and do not try and put words in my mouth.

 

I have no idea why Pak Chong RD told me I had no need to file anything. And just for the benefit of any doubt I have no idea if the same will apply to other RD Offices.

 

I thought this was quite clear and explicit

 

 

Simple common sense tells me that income taxed in home Country is highly unlikely to be taxed again in Thailand. Which is why I have posted it multiple times, long before I went to the RD Office.

 

Whether that comes in the form of exemptions, tax credits or some other method remains to be seen.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth. I was merely trying to understand the reasons why and since you have been unwilling or unable to explicitly tell us those reasons why, I've been feeding possible reason back to you to criticize and tell me I'm wrong yet again. Finally however, after many posts, you have managed to say that you don't know why the RD told you not to file and you didn't bother to ask them why. Thanks, I think we're finally there on this.

[Old Croc]

I would like to know why the poster felt the need to approach the RD this year when they've already stated 2023 imported income is not taxable.

That may have been the reason they gave a negative response.

 

[The Cyclist]

 

I went to find out if I needed to file anything for tax year 2023. I really do not / did not care what the reasons for  " No need to file anything " were.

 

**This post has been cropped by a Moderator to remove unnecessary flaming parts of the post.

 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

would like to know why the poster felt the need to approach the RD this year when they've already stated 2023 imported income is not taxable.

 

I don't think the above  is quite correct.

 

However, Because I was a Thai Tax Resident in 2023 and as the income was from pensions, technically it was remitted the year it was earned.

 

My thinking being that it might be assessable income, even if no tax was payable.

 

It has been battered about enough that assessable income requires filing a tax return.

 

So to keep myself clean, I dragged myself to the RD Office, and asked the question.

 

6 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

That may have been the reason they gave a negative response.

 

It is certainly a possibility.

[scorecard]

On 1/26/2024 at 12:27 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes

 

I went to my local RD office this morning, armed with everything to get a TIN and file a tax return for 2023, including my other half as interuptor.

 

P60's annotated in Thai script by my trusty interuptor, colour coded tying them up with the deposits to my bank printout matching colour coded.

 

All as easy as pie.

 

Took less than 5 minutes for them to tell me I had no need to file a tax return.

 

I didn't ask any questions on what might or might not be changing, I'll await an official announcement from the RD before going any further.

 

What Chonburi RD Office might do I have no idea, but I would echo @DaLa and do nothing until further information is forthcoming.

 

I've had a Thai personal tax number for over 25 years. My Accountant has handled it for me (she was my student for her MBA degree).

 

For many years my Thai income put me just over the thresh hold, my accountant submitted my personal tax return (on line), quickly got a response of how much tax I had to pay (always a small amount. Tax paid on line and receipt received immediately on line.

 

More recently my income went way down, acct., submitted my return and got a response that I owed no tax and going forward if my income was under the thresh hold no need to submit and further returns.

 

Never heard from RD ever again.  

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

've had a Thai personal tax number for over 25 years. My Accountant has handled it for me (she was my student for her MBA degree).

 

Sure - I can understand that, that would be normal if someone was earning income in Thailand.

 

I have never earned income in Thailand, never had a tax number or filed a tax return.

 

With all the conflicting info that has been posted since Septembers announcement, especially around assessable income. I got off my backside and went to my local RD Office to ask 1 simple question.

 

" This is what I bring into Thailand, Do I need to file anything, for tax year 2023 " ?

 

I do not need to be told twice, or ask further questions when the answer is " No need to file anything "

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure - I can understand that, that would be normal if someone was earning income in Thailand.

 

I have never earned income in Thailand, never had a tax number or filed a tax return.

 

With all the conflicting info that has been posted since Septembers announcement, especially around assessable income. I got off my backside and went to my local RD Office to ask 1 simple question.

 

" This is what I bring into Thailand, Do I need to file anything, for tax year 2023 " ?

 

I do not need to be told twice, or ask further questions when the answer is " No need to file anything "

You will have your own reasons, which of course I respect, but for somebody who has been so avidly engaged in the discussion about tax in Thailand and  the new ruling, for so many months, I am very surprised that when you visited the RD and were told you didn't need to file, that you didn't ask simply. why is that. I would have thought that curiosity alone would have made you want to know the answer but hey, each to their own. 

[Happy happy]

28 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure - I can understand that, that would be normal if someone was earning income in Thailand.

 

I have never earned income in Thailand, never had a tax number or filed a tax return.

 

With all the conflicting info that has been posted since Septembers announcement, especially around assessable income. I got off my backside and went to my local RD Office to ask 1 simple question.

 

" This is what I bring into Thailand, Do I need to file anything, for tax year 2023 " ?

 

I do not need to be told twice, or ask further questions when the answer is " No need to file anything "

Yes and others are also being told the same by the RD i.e. no need to file anything. Though there are some persons on these forums who for some inexplicable reason(I will not ask why)  are determined to try to suggest we all need to file tax returns here in Thailand even though for many of us that is not the case and never was the case.

Edited January 30 by Happy happy

[sirineou]

29 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

" This is what I bring into Thailand, Do I need to file anything, for tax year 2023 " ?

 

I do not need to be told twice, or ask further questions when the answer is " No need to file anything "

If i missundertan the conversation, please forgive me, I tried to follow it back a couple of steps. 

But , of course you don't need to file  for 2023, and the officer answered you correctly.

This new tax policy  starts Jan 2024.

2025 you will need to file for the 2024 year, unless you don't have any taxable income. which depends on what country you are from, and the source of your income. 

For instance, I am American and according to the tax agreement between The US and Thailand , my pensions are only taxable in the US,  I don't have any taxable income coming into Thailand so I don't have to file.

At least I think I don't have to file . When the time comes next year hopefully we will have clearer guidance. 

 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, Happy happy said:

Yes and others are also being told the same by the RD i.e. no need to file anything. Though there are some persons on these forums who for some inexplicable reason(I will not ask why)  are determined to try to suggest we all need to file tax returns here in Thailand even though for many of us that is not the case and never was the case.

If you read the link below and also the many posts on the subject, you will realise that nobody has ever suggested that everyone should file a tax return. What has been said repeatedly, if you read more carefully, is that everyone should assess whether there is a need for them to file a return or not, based on their individual circumstances. And if anyone else is being told by the RD that they have no need to file, it will be super super helpful if they will report that information here so that everyone can understand the reason why.

 

 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

If i missundertan the conversation, please forgive me, I tried to follow it back a couple of steps. 

But , of course you don't need to file  for 2023, and the officer answered you correctly.

This new tax policy  starts Jan 2024.

 

Yes, you have misunderstood.

 

Nothing to do with the new tax policy starting 2024.

 

Thai Tax Resident 2023

 

Pensions remitted to Thailand in 2023.

 

Many posts made about having to file if you have assessable income. Nobody can correctly identify what assessable income is.

 

Not being 100% certain what constitutes assessable income, the best bet was going direct to the RD and asking them if I was required to file anything.

 

Not sure why people have difficulty in understanding this.

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You will have your own reasons, which of course I respect, but for somebody who has been so avidly engaged in the discussion about tax in Thailand and  the new ruling,

 

I haven't  mentioned the new ruling in this thread, which stared 01 Jan 2024 that will come when the RD make a further announcement.

 

*** Edited by moderation to remove flame.

 

2023 tax year is what is asked about. I also made it abundantly clear that I never asked any questions about any changes for 2024, and specifically said I would await a further announcement from the RD before proceeding any further.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, you have misunderstood.

 

Nothing to do with the new tax policy starting 2024.

 

Thai Tax Resident 2023

 

Pensions remitted to Thailand in 2023.

 

Many posts made about having to file if you have assessable income. Nobody can correctly identify what assessable income is.

 

Not being 100% certain what constitutes assessable income, the best bet was going direct to the RD and asking them if I was required to file anything.

 

Not sure why people have difficulty in understanding this.

That's not true, this year doesn't mark the first year in Thai tax history where the definition of assessable income is finally going to be defined for the very first time. Assessable income means the same thing this year that it's meant in previous years, only you seem to be waiting for some eureka moment when the Director stands up and gives a whole new definition.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

That's not true, this year doesn't mark the first year in Thai tax history where the definition of assessable income is finally going to be defined for the very first time.

 

Whatever you say 

 

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

, only you seem to be waiting for some eureka moment when the Director stands up and gives a whole new definition.

 

I couldn't care less what he comes out with, it is not really going to affect me. Other than having to go to the RD Ofiice once a year, or never setting eyes on the place again.

 

Either way, I wont be losing any sleep over it.

[Mike Lister]

 

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

If i missundertan the conversation, please forgive me, I tried to follow it back a couple of steps. 

But , of course you don't need to file  for 2023, and the officer answered you correctly.

This new tax policy  starts Jan 2024.

2025 you will need to file for the 2024 year, unless you don't have any taxable income. which depends on what country you are from, and the source of your income. 

For instance, I am American and according to the tax agreement between The US and Thailand , my pensions are only taxable in the US,  I don't have any taxable income coming into Thailand so I don't have to file.

At least I think I don't have to file . When the time comes next year hopefully we will have clearer guidance. 

 

The Cyclist went to the RD to see if he needed to file a tax return, this is because , " I was a Thai Tax Resident in 2023 and as the income was from pensions, technically it was remitted the year it was earned". So yes, he was required to file a tax return under the old rules. BUT, for whatever reason the RD said he didn't need to file a return, allegedly, and he didn't ask why. We may never know what the real story was here or the reasons behind it so we all must move on and find another new example.

 

We are continually being told that we don't know what assessable income is and that at some point, the RD will tell us. This is not true, we have always known what assessable income is, the definition has not changed. Assessable income in Thailand is any income that was remitted to Thailand and earned after 1 January 2024 and which is not exempted by the DTA between Thailand and your home country, or by the Thai RD. 

[Mike Lister]

I'm going to cross post here because there is so much misleading and confusing information flying around that many people are getting confused, and no wonder why.

 

Firstly, poster The Cyclist went to the RD to see if he needed to file a tax return, this is because , " I was a Thai Tax Resident in 2023 and as the income was from pensions, technically it was remitted the year it was earned". So yes, he was required to file a tax return under the old rules. BUT, for whatever reason the RD said he didn't need to file a return, allegedly, and oddly, he didn't ask why! We may never know what the real story was here or the reasons behind it so we all must move on and find another new example because the information on this is not reliable or conclusive in any way.

 

Secondly, we are being told repeatedly by some that we don't know what assessable income is and that at some point, the RD will tell us. This is not true, we have always known what assessable income is, the definition has not changed. Assessable income in Thailand is any income that was remitted to Thailand, whilst tax  resident and was earned after 1 January 2024 and which is not exempted by the DTA between Thailand and your home country, or by the Thai RD. 

 

Thirdly, the Revenue Department may make some announcements in the coming months or there again they may not. I am hard pressed to understand exactly what announcements might be made or why. We have been told that new tax filing forms are being prepared, presumably they are being redesigned but I don't even know this for certain. It is not impossible to think that we might arrive at 31 December 2024 knowing nothing more than we do today, in respect of Thai tax. If that happens, anyone who has been tax resident here during this year, will be required to file a tax return, as long as they have assessable income that exceeds the threshold of 120,000. Assessable income is defined above. It will be YOUR responsibility to understand your country's DTA with Thailand and determine what constitutes assessable income. DTA's are available to download and are linked in the OP.

 

Lastly, it is possible that many different things might happen between now and the end of the year but at this stage, trying to imagine what they might be is nothing more than guess work so I'm not even going to discuss any of them because it only further confuses matters.

[JimGant]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Assessable income is defined above. It will be YOUR responsibility to understand your country's DTA with Thailand and determine what constitutes assessable income. DTA's are available to download and are linked in the OP.

 

I just read the UK-Thai DTA, and I can finally see where The Cyclist is coming from -- State and private pensions are never addressed in this treaty, unlike gov't pensions, which are exclusively taxable only by the paying country. Thus, a trip to the RD office to get their read on State and private pensions. And I can only imagine they probably weren't aware of the details (or lack thereof) of the DTA; their take was probably, "we've never taxed foreign pensions and we have no guidance to begin now."

 

Why the UK-Thai DTA doesn't mention private and State pensions is beyond me...... They don't even have an Article, like US treaties have, entitled "Other Income," that addresses income, like gambling winnings, that aren't specifically addressed elsewhere. Here's a Technical Explanation related to that US Article "Other Income":

 

Quote

Article 24 generally assigns taxing jurisdiction over income not dealt with in the other
articles (Articles 6 through 23) of the Convention to the State of residence of the beneficial
owner of the income and defines the terms necessary to apply the article. However, the other
State may also tax such income if it arises in the other State.

 

Well, that's not very helpful, as it doesn't define who's the primary taxing country (i.e., who gets to keep all the taxes, but has to issue a tax credit). Presumably, it's the country of residence -- but it's not specific about this.

 

Thus, as The Cyclist has found out, determining assessable income from one's DTA isn't always that helpful. But, I'm not sure I'd go to my local RD office for their opinion on what is, and isn't, assessable income. I'd just give it my best shot, with the benefit of the doubt going to me -- plus, I'd keep good notes on my thought process, should I ever be queried (which seems doubtful).

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

I just read the UK-Thai DTA, and I can finally see where The Cyclist is coming from -- State and private pensions are never addressed in this treaty, unlike gov't pensions, which are exclusively taxable only by the paying country. Thus, a trip to the RD office to get their read on State and private pensions. And I can only imagine they probably weren't aware of the details (or lack thereof) of the DTA; their take was probably, "we've never taxed foreign pensions and we have no guidance to begin now."

 

Why the UK-Thai DTA doesn't mention private and State pensions is beyond me...... They don't even have an Article, like US treaties have, entitled "Other Income," that addresses income, like gambling winnings, that aren't specifically addressed elsewhere. Here's a Technical Explanation related to that US Article "Other Income":

 

 

Well, that's not very helpful, as it doesn't define who's the primary taxing country (i.e., who gets to keep all the taxes, but has to issue a tax credit). Presumably, it's the country of residence -- but it's not specific about this.

 

Thus, as The Cyclist has found out, determining assessable income from one's DTA isn't always that helpful. But, I'm not sure I'd go to my local RD office for their opinion on what is, and isn't, assessable income. I'd just give it my best shot, with the benefit of the doubt going to me -- plus, I'd keep good notes on my thought process, should I ever be queried (which seems doubtful).

I think most/many Brits have been aware for quite a long time that the UK State Pension and private pensions were not protected by their DTA and that they are regarded as assessable income, if/when remitted here. UK Government and Civil Service pensions on the other hand are protected by the DTA and are not taxable in Thailand. The maximum UK State pension remains below the level of the UK Personal Allowance but when the UK government pension is added on top, a UK tax is applied.

 

I do not think there is any opportunity to escape that tax because both pensions arise in the UK and the UK retains taxation rights over the government pension. The best that can be hoped for in that scenario, I think, is that no Thai tax is due because both pensions are taxed at a higher rate in the UK than they would be when remitted to Thailand and taxed here. I have little doubt however that the poster will be along shortly to tell us this is all totally wrong, again.