Can probate be carried out -without the need of a lawyer?

[Delight]

I ask this Q because my wife is both  the administer and beneficiary  of my estate -when I pass.

Very simple.

So is a lawyer required -or is there a do it yourself alternative process?

[DaLa]

In the UK anyone can apply for probate by contacting the various authorities and dealing with the paperwork.  I would assume the basic principles are the same here in LoS and obviously if your wife is Thai she would not be disadvantaged by the language barrier.

[Mike Lister]

No, only a Thai lawyer can address a Thai court.

[brianthainess]

I presume you mean in Thailand. The family court does the probate in your province, I don't know the 'Fee' but I doubt it is much as in all Amphur fees. If you are concerned I would ask there.  

[prakhonchai nick]

11 hours ago, brianthainess said:

I presume you mean in Thailand. The family court does the probate in your province, I don't know the 'Fee' but I doubt it is much as in all Amphur fees. If you are concerned I would ask there.  

It is not the court fee that is the problem, but the Lawyer Fee.  I have been involved in a couple of probates using a Lawyer from a neighbouring province who charged 30,000baht to obtain probate and extract the money (incluing his expenses)   Another called in by the widow in the same province wanted 60,000baht to get probate for a bank account of just 110,000baht!!!!!   Pays to shop around.

[tandor]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

No, only a Thai lawyer can address a Thai court.

Slightly off-topic...whom freezes a foreigner's Thai bank account and how long after death please! 

[prakhonchai nick]

Normally the bank freezes the account when they have been advised of the death. No hurry for anyone to advise the bank -in fact probably not even necessary. Most widows (with the permission of their late husband before his death) will have access to his ATM cards and PIN numbers and will (illegally) drain most accounts. Fixed deposit accounts do not have ATM cards, nor can they be operated online!

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, tandor said:

Slightly off-topic...whom freezes a foreigner's Thai bank account and how long after death please! 

One of the first requirements, following a death, is to notify the police. I don't know the process they go through but they are the ones who logically would insist on identification. I don't think they are the ones who notify banks but it's possible. It seems more likely that relatives may do so in the course of wrapping up the deceased affairs and that the banks may be the last ones to know, probably quite some time after the fact..

[Andycoops]

58 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

One of the first requirements, following a death, is to notify the police. I don't know the process they go through but they are the ones who logically would insist on identification. I don't think they are the ones who notify banks but it's possible. It seems more likely that relatives may do so in the course of wrapping up the deceased affairs and that the banks may be the last ones to know, probably quite some time after the fact..

In my experience the police are not involved in anything to do with a deceased private business unless foul play is suspected.

In the cases I know of the widow had to present the death certificate to the bank to obtain access to her late husbands accounts.

If a UK citizen the death certificate is only issued after a autopsy is performed as required by the UK embassy and the body released to the family for funeral rites.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Andycoops said:

In my experience the police are not involved in anything to do with a deceased private business unless foul play is suspected.

In the cases I know of the widow had to present the death certificate to the bank to obtain access to her late husbands accounts.

If a UK citizen the death certificate is only issued after a autopsy is performed as required by the UK embassy and the body released to the family for funeral rites.

I got involved in a lengthy discussion with several people over several days regarding this process so I seriously am not going to go there again. What we determined the last time around is that there are several variables involved and where the person dies and how they die is are the most important. A sick person who dies in hospital or as the result of a road traffic accident is very unlikely to be sent for autopsy whereas the middle aged person dying alone suddenly in their apartment might be. The police report that staes the cause of death is important, allegedly. In almost every instance there is usually a link to the police who issue a police report which is then taken to the Amphur where the final death certificate is produced, the doctors initial report of death is not the final document. Yes, the embassy must approve release of the body to the next of kin and if there is none in country, must await approval from overseas. The hospital wont release the body without an embassy approval letter (which shows cause of death has been confirmed).

 

Many people will have variations on this story because that's what happens here, every process has regional variations based on the people and the factors involved, and the phase of the moon. Debate away, I'm off.

[brianthainess]

2 hours ago, tandor said:

Slightly off-topic...whom freezes a foreigner's Thai bank account and how long after death please! 

I know for a fact it's not frozen for at least 5 months if at all, I don't think any officials tell the bank. I had my dead friends ATM card and Pin num. ( I used to take his money out every month as he had lost the use of all muscle) His family in NZ told me I could keep his money and anything left over, as we had done all the cremation and all the other expenses that went along with that, Illegal maybe, but ...it was not a fortune around 110k all up. The bank still have not been informed of his death, nearly 2 yrs later.

[brianthainess]

3 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

It is not the court fee that is the problem, but the Lawyer Fee.  I have been involved in a couple of probates using a Lawyer from a neighbouring province who charged 30,000baht to obtain probate and extract the money (incluing his expenses)   Another called in by the widow in the same province wanted 60,000baht to get probate for a bank account of just 110,000baht!!!!!   Pays to shop around.

All that is needed is 'the letter' from the Family Court, that did the Probate, but of course if you contact lawyers then obviously you have to pay them.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think a lawyer is necessary, it will still go to probate the court would not hold back probates otherwise normal poor Thais would never get "The Letter" 

[prakhonchai nick]

I have suggested to widows on occasions, that if they feel inclined to take the money from their late husband's/partners bank account, to just leave a 100bt balance, but not to inform the bank of the death. When it comes time to  pay the annual debit card fee, there being insufficient money available, the account will be closed automatically.

 

Last time I heard of the Police becoming ionvolved with bank accounts was some 15 years ago in Pattaya. Never since

[prakhonchai nick]

1 minute ago, brianthainess said:

All that is needed is 'the letter' from the Family Court, that did the Probate, but of course if you contact lawyers then obviously you have to pay them.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think a lawyer is necessary, it will still go to probate the court would not hold back probates otherwise normal poor Thais would never get "The Letter" 

The Family Court does indeed  provide the Probate document, but I believe it will only be produced upon application from a Lawyer.

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Many people will have variations on this story because that's what happens here, every process has regional variations based on the people and the factors involved, and the phase of the moon. Debate away, I'm off.

Don't go yet, My friend died in a Hospital from MND and was sent by the police from Koh Chang to BKK for autopsy.

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Don't go yet, My friend died in a Hospital from MND and was sent by the police from Koh Chang to BKK for autopsy.

"every process has regional variations based on the people and the factors involved, and the phase of the moon".

[Georgealbert]

3 hours ago, Andycoops said:

In my experience the police are not involved in anything to do with a deceased private business unless foul play is suspected.

In the cases I know of the widow had to present the death certificate to the bank to obtain access to her late husbands accounts.

If a UK citizen the death certificate is only issued after a autopsy is performed as required by the UK embassy and the body released to the family for funeral rites.

The need for an autopsy will depend on many different circumstances, and the UK embassy do not always request one is performed, but it is rare not to have one performed if not a death in hospital or known accident.
 

Below is a recent UK consular release letter, i helped get, for a death at home, and no autopsy was done. Personal information has been blocked out.

 

The letter is presented to the police and hospital to get the death certificate, issued at amphur, and body released for cremation.

 

Death certificate is then used to inform bank, by NOK.

 

Edited January 30 by Georgealbert

[Moonlover]

4 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Normally the bank freezes the account when they have been advised of the death. No hurry for anyone to advise the bank -in fact probably not even necessary. Most widows (with the permission of their late husband before his death) will have access to his ATM cards and PIN numbers and will (illegally) drain most accounts. Fixed deposit accounts do not have ATM cards, nor can they be operated online!

That's exactly what Krungsri bank advised us to do when we raised this issue with them. Good point about fixed deposit accounts. That's why I closed mine awhile ago.

[Denim]

4 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Normally the bank freezes the account when they have been advised of the death. No hurry for anyone to advise the bank -in fact probably not even necessary. Most widows (with the permission of their late husband before his death) will have access to his ATM cards and PIN numbers and will (illegally) drain most accounts. Fixed deposit accounts do not have ATM cards, nor can they be operated online!

 

The only problem with the ATM withdrawal methos is that ( as far as I know ) there is a daily limit of 20,000 baht. I could be wrong so if someone wants to correct me on this I will appreciate it.

 

The other slight problem is if the ATM machine is faulty and does not return the card. This has happened to me but luckily it was at a banks ATM machine so I was able to go straight inside and inform the staff who after a bit of mucking around returned my card.

 

 

[Moonlover]

2 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

The only problem with the ATM withdrawal methos is that ( as far as I know ) there is a daily limit of 20,000 baht. I could be wrong so if someone wants to correct me on this I will appreciate it.

 

The other slight problem is if the ATM machine is faulty and does not return the card. This has happened to me but luckily it was at a banks ATM machine so I was able to go straight inside and inform the staff who after a bit of mucking around returned my card.

 

 

Teach the good lady how to make cardless withdrawals. Problem solved. I've also taught my wife to use the Krungsri mobile app so she can transfer the money to her account.

 

Edited January 30 by Moonlover

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

The only problem with the ATM withdrawal methos is that ( as far as I know ) there is a daily limit of 20,000 baht. I could be wrong so if someone wants to correct me on this I will appreciate it.

 

The other slight problem is if the ATM machine is faulty and does not return the card. This has happened to me but luckily it was at a banks ATM machine so I was able to go straight inside and inform the staff who after a bit of mucking around returned my card.

 

 

Branch staff will only return an ATM card to the person who is named on the card and that needs ID. If there's no name on the card, it wont be returned and the owner must apply for reissue.

[topt]

4 minutes ago, Denim said:

The only problem with the ATM withdrawal methos is that ( as far as I know ) there is a daily limit of 20,000 baht. I could be wrong so if someone wants to correct me on this I will appreciate it.

Did you mean 200,000 baht?

[Moonlover]

5 minutes ago, topt said:

8 minutes ago, Denim said:

The only problem with the ATM withdrawal methos is that ( as far as I know ) there is a daily limit of 20,000 baht. I could be wrong so if someone wants to correct me on this I will appreciate it.

 

5 minutes ago, topt said:

Did you mean 200,000 baht?

With a standard Krungsri debit card, limits are 30,000 THB per transaction and up to 100,000 THB per day. (the account holder can choose one of five limits up to that amount)

 

Other banks will vary I'm sure.

[Denim]

8 minutes ago, topt said:

Did you mean 200,000 baht?

 

As I have never tried to withdraw a large amount on my ATM card I am not sure.  With my UK Atm card the limit when using it in Thailand has usually been 20,000 , and in the provinces not even that. But a Thai ATM card I don't know for sure.

[Denim]

16 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Teach the good lady how to make cardless withdrawals. Problem solved. I've also taught my wife to use the Krungsri mobile app so she can transfer the money to her account.

 

 

Perfect solution to the ATM getting gobbled issue

[Denim]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Branch staff will only return an ATM card to the person who is named on the card and that needs ID. If there's no name on the card, it wont be returned and the owner must apply for reissue.

 

This was my meaning but Moonlover has the perfect solution.

[digbeth]

I've seen case where the prosecutor office (must be where they have the equivalent of legal aid) help Thai family get estate executor appointed without need for lawyer, they just need a few fee like for the advertisement on court paper of the court date, and on the date they just read out the case in court, no body turns up to contest and it's done. the wait was long like 6-8months though 

[topt]

7 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

As I have never tried to withdraw a large amount on my ATM card I am not sure.  With my UK Atm card the limit when using it in Thailand has usually been 20,000 , and in the provinces not even that. But a Thai ATM card I don't know for sure.

SCB has ATMs with a menu item of 30,000 - and I guess other banks will be similar.

Just checked on my app for SCB and the maximum daily limit mentioned in there is 500k - which of course would mean multiple withdrawals (mine is set much lower )

[jayceenik]

5 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Normally the bank freezes the account when they have been advised of the death. No hurry for anyone to advise the bank -in fact probably not even necessary. Most widows (with the permission of their late husband before his death) will have access to his ATM cards and PIN numbers and will (illegally) drain most accounts. Fixed deposit accounts do not have ATM cards, nor can they be operated online!

Yes, it can be done like that. The bank has no knowledge of the farang husband's death and it is simple for the TW to withdraw money from the account if she has the ATM card of the deceased and the PIN. I know personally of a case like that here in TH. After her UK husband died in the village the TW got hold of his ATM card and somehow managed to find the PIN. She withdrew all the account money day-limit by day-limit. 

The account was in a Thai bank.

Edited January 30 by jayceenik

[prakhonchai nick]

If after death, a deceased's account is debited unusually  (ie large daily withdrawals) when prior to death, there was a regular pattern of perhaps 2/3 withdrawals a month, it is quite normal for the banks computer to recognise the changes, and for the bank to lock the account and invite the account holder to attend the bank.  I always advise widows (having initially told them it is illegal to withdraw money from a deceased's account) to just make small withdrawals every 5/6 days until the account is empty.