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Posted
9 hours ago, Deerculler said:

I am 80 years old. It looks to me that Thai Inland Revenue want to tax me maybe 25 percent of my pensions and most likely have to an accountant to do this for me.

He will most likely charge the old farang like a wounded bull.

Which all sounds like a good wack out of my pensions.

 

Thank you Mike for the effort that you gone done to explain to us.

To me personally.

It just seems to give me problems at my age that I can do without.

The golden years of old doesn't really exist.

If you have concerns about your personal tax situation in Thailand, please feel free to raise questions here or to PM me directly and we will try to help. Poster @JimGant is a retired CPA from the US and also has a wealth of US specific knowledge.

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Posted
9 hours ago, G_Money said:

Absolutely no way I would pay 2 countries income tax.

 

You're absolutely correct. The tax treaty prohibits double taxation. Do a little research, and relax.

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Posted

Thailand’s cabinet on Tuesday approved a tax exemption for crypto earnings to encourage fundraising via investment tokens, multiple local news outlets reported.

Under the exemption, holders of investment tokens that have had the 15% capital gains tax withheld don’t need to include the profits when calculating their income tax, essentially ending a scenario of double taxation, according to one report.

 

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2024/03/13/thailand-greenlights-income-tax-exemption-for-investment-token-earnings-report/

Posted

Indeed. Thank you Mike.

Time to download both forums for reference. I hope they get pinned.

 

Excellent work.

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Posted
3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I have added a new Para 69 to the document which reads as follows:

 

I will arrange for the document to be updated in a few weeks time.

 

CERTIFICATE OF TAX RESIDENCY or TAX PAID

 

69) The certificate of fiscal residence is called R.O. 22 and can be obtained  at District Revenue Offices. It is not necessary to file a tax declaration in order to obtain an R.O. 22, the certification has no correlation to tax payments and  simply states that you have been here for 180 or more and so you are considered a tax resident. The request form is here: RO-22.pdf. 

 

A second document is the R.O. 21, which confirms declared income and tax paid during the year.

 

Both forms are located here: RO 22 and RO 21

RO21.pdf

Thank you Mike.

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Posted
13 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 It is irrelevant that the spending is done on credit, the taxable event occurs in Thailand when the buyer receives the goods or services they purchased and the seller is remunerated.

 

This is akin to Foreign Direct Investment, critical to the health of the Thai economy. Say I borrow $300k from my US bank, and send the money to Thailand to buy a condo. This is FDI, and the Thais certainly aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by treating it as taxable income. On a smaller scale, I borrow money from my US bank -- via my credit card -- to buy a new cell phone. FDI, on a smaller scale. Same as if I took a cash advance off of my credit card. So, no, I don't think the Thais will treat borrowed money as assessable income.

 

Debit cards, of course, are a different animal. No borrowing here -- just a direct dip into your financial account. But if this account was established and largely funded pre 2024 -- or funded with DTA exempt monies -- no assessable income here.

Posted
14 minutes ago, Isan Farang said:

Myths about Thai expats and those income tax changes starting very soon


Most expats in Thailand live on income or capital, or both, built up over many years with tax already paid in the country of passport. They are understandably worried by the imminent change in Thai Revenue practice – it is not a new law passed by parliament – which will potentially tax new and assessable foreign-sourced income beginning in January 2024. Pattaya Mail has received more concerned reader feedback about this issue than any other during 2023. With inauguration day fast approaching, here is our summary for the typical expat who does not indulge in major currency speculation, huge profit-taking from overseas businesses nor off-shore bank accounts hiding their cash.

Has the Thai Revenue clarified the position of typical expats? No. It is commonly assumed that the Revenue is mainly interested in rich Thais and foreigners who have manipulated Thai tax rules in the past to avoid payments from overseas. Typical expats with home-country pensions or social security allowances are not part of this agenda, though in theory they could be caught in the crossfire. Talks are continuing between senior accountancy firms, lobby groups and the Revenue about this and other issues. Don’t expect answers any time soon.

Will my international cash transfers to Thailand from January 1 2024 be reduced on arrival by a Bank of Thailand tax levy? No. There will not be any changes from current practice. You pay tax in arrears in Thailand by registering at the Revenue for a tax identification number and paying tax due, if any, in the next fiscal year. There is no PAYE procedure in Thailand. The misunderstanding that Thailand will tax international transfers as the cash arrives is a widespread misconception

Should I apply for a tax identification number? Not unless you receive an instruction from a government source or the immigration, both very unlikely scenarios. It is almost certain that, at any rate in the early years, tax registration will be voluntary. If you believe you have been taxed already on your cash sent to Thailand, it’s best to do nothing now. There is no need to employ the services of tax accountants if you are a typical expat (unless working here on a work permit which is a separate subject). The tax situation as regards cash sent to Thailand to purchase property is a separate source of ambiguity.

Most countries with expats here have a double taxation treaty with Thailand, so is that relevant? That depends on the exact wording of complex documents which differ substantially one from another. Double taxation treaties are designed to be used only in cases where Thailand and the first country cannot agree on who has the right to tax. If Thai Revenue were to clarify unambiguously that previously taxed income would not be retaxed, the issue would largely die.

If I need to later, how will I prove that my cash transfers to Thailand have already been taxed? This will vary on an individual basis. An expat’s tax return or the response by the internal revenue service of the first country might suffice, or a simple statement on a tax form might be acceptable. Few experts, if any, believe that the Thai Revenue has the staffing or the expertise to deal with more than 300,000 expats who are tax residents because they spend more than 180 days here in a fiscal year. It bears repeating that the registration process will likely be voluntary. The Thai government is looking for the big fish, Thai or foreign, and not the small fry.

How does Thai Revenue know about your international cash transfers? Most countries in the world, around 120 and including Thailand, are now part of the CRS (Common Reporting System) which requires financial institutions worldwide to fight tax evasion and to protect the integrity of tax systems by sharing your banking transactions with partner countries. This means that your international transfers have been/ are/ will be monitored by Thai financial authorities. Some experts believe that Thai Revenue will use CRS as the route to question rich Thais and foreigners about large international transactions. Amongst the countries not registered for CRS are North Korea and the Vatican.

What is the Thai government really up to? The new post-coup government simply wants to raise cash, in part to help pay for its populist policies such as the 10,000 baht give away scheme. One can assume that nobody in authority has yet thought seriously about the effects of the change on the expat market here and the potential unpopularity amongst long-term visa holders including one year retirement extensions, Elite and the 10 year Long Term Residence. If you are an expat living in Thailand for at least half the year, without any major financial secrets to keep from Thai Revenue, then it’s best to do nothing until the situation is clearer. That’ll take several months yet. But no point in packing your bags in disgust and leaving for Cambodia. They are a CRS country too

There isn't anything in there that wasn't already widely known and understood but it's good the information is propagated so that as many people as possible get the message.

 

But there are one or two inaccuracies:

 

1) there is a PAYE equivalent in Thailand, all large employers who collect SSc from employees, also calculate and collect tax.

2) the reason the government is doing this is to increase the tax net, which is one of the smallest in Asia, it is not being done to finance populist policies..

 

 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

This is akin to Foreign Direct Investment, critical to the health of the Thai economy. Say I borrow $300k from my US bank, and send the money to Thailand to buy a condo. This is FDI, and the Thais certainly aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot by treating it as taxable income. On a smaller scale, I borrow money from my US bank -- via my credit card -- to buy a new cell phone. FDI, on a smaller scale. Same as if I took a cash advance off of my credit card. So, no, I don't think the Thais will treat borrowed money as assessable income.

 

Debit cards, of course, are a different animal. No borrowing here -- just a direct dip into your financial account. But if this account was established and largely funded pre 2024 -- or funded with DTA exempt monies -- no assessable income here.

You may call that condo purchase FDI, the Central Bank wouldn't, at least not in the strictest sense of the term. FDI arrives typically via the BOI on a far greater scale.

 

Once again, the TRD doesn't care about "your" financial arrangements outside of its borders. You could have stolen the money for all they care, all they want to know is whether it's assessable or not. You say it's not your money and is only debt? Who cares, that's your problem not ours we just want to know if it's debt that is paid off using current untaxed income or not.

Posted (edited)

8.   An individual who has resided and worked abroad for an extended period and subsequently brings their accumulated savings or income from foreign sources into Thailand is not subject to tax. This exemption applies because the income was earned in tax years when the individual was not residing in Thailand for at least 180 days.

 

https://mahanakornpartners.com/clarifications-on-personal-income-tax-for-foreign-sourced-income-key-questions-and-answers/

 

 

I think this is interesting sounds like a new loophole 😂.

Edited by martinafr
Posted
28 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You may call that condo purchase FDI, the Central Bank wouldn't

 

Ok, call it "foreign investment." Same argument. Borrowed money, of any flavor, ain't gonna be taxed by Thailand. Just ask the condo developers association.

Posted
5 minutes ago, martinafr said:

8.   An individual who has resided and worked abroad for an extended period and subsequently brings their accumulated savings or income from foreign sources into Thailand is not subject to tax. This exemption applies because the income was earned in tax years when the individual was not residing in Thailand for at least 180 days.

 

https://mahanakornpartners.com/clarifications-on-personal-income-tax-for-foreign-sourced-income-key-questions-and-answers/

 

 

I think this is interesting sounds like a new loophole 😂.

I think you should read the document below and start getting your tax related information from more reliable and complete sources.

 

 

Posted
Just now, JimGant said:

 

Ok, call it "foreign investment." Same argument. Borrowed money, of any flavor, ain't gonna be taxed by Thailand. Just ask the condo developers association.

If I live year round in Thailand and charge all my expenses to my UK credit card which gets paid off from an untaxed income stream that is paid into my UK bank, is that borrowed money!

Posted
5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

If I live year round in Thailand and charge all my expenses to my UK credit card which gets paid off from an untaxed income stream that is paid into my UK bank, is that borrowed money!

Sure it's borrowed money. Paid off with a separate stream of money never remitted to Thailand. I like the condo example better, because it would seem ludicrous to treat borrowed money to buy a condo as assessable income, because eventually it will be paid back with monies that, should they be remitted to Thailand, which they won't, would then be treated as assessable income.

 

I believe we're on what's called a 'circle jerk.'

Posted
14 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Sure it's borrowed money. Paid off with a separate stream of money never remitted to Thailand. I like the condo example better, because it would seem ludicrous to treat borrowed money to buy a condo as assessable income, because eventually it will be paid back with monies that, should they be remitted to Thailand, which they won't, would then be treated as assessable income.

 

I believe we're on what's called a 'circle jerk.'

Yes we are. And whilst it's interesting to debate and understand, this is not the thread to do it in so perhaps a different time and place.

Posted
6 minutes ago, martinafr said:

@Mike Lister maybe its not a "workaround" but in generally Mahanakorn Partners should be a reliable source.

Perhaps so. The problem however with picking up parts of the picture is exactly that, you need an overview of the whole picture before you can decide which parts to drill down, which is why it's better to read the guide first. For example, the new TRD ruling dated November 2023, reset the clock on foreign earned income whereby anything earned prior to that year, is free of Thai tax.

Posted
2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Sure it's borrowed money. Paid off with a separate stream of money never remitted to Thailand. I like the condo example better, because it would seem ludicrous to treat borrowed money to buy a condo as assessable income, because eventually it will be paid back with monies that, should they be remitted to Thailand, which they won't, would then be treated as assessable income.

 

Alan earns $50,000 in the US and sends the money to Thailand to buy a condo.  Assessable?

 

Bill earms $50,000 which he puts in his US bank account.  He borrows $50,000 from another bank and sends that money to Thailand to buy a condo.  Later, he clears the debt from his primary account using the money he earnt.  Assessable?

 

PH

Posted
1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

Alan earns $50,000 in the US and sends the money to Thailand to buy a condo.  Assessable?

 

Bill earms $50,000 which he puts in his US bank account.  He borrows $50,000 from another bank and sends that money to Thailand to buy a condo.  Later, he clears the debt from his primary account using the money he earnt.  Assessable?

 

 

I was admonished not to debate on this thread; but going back to page one, here's what the OP says:

Quote

 If after reading it, anyone remains unclear about the points that have been explained in this document, they are welcome to raise questions to see if anyone can provide clarity.

 

So, here goes. It would be impractical/ludicrous for RD to consider money remitted to Thailand as income, if it was obtained as a loan. How it was paid off in the future couldn't be known for current taxation purposes; so it wouldn't be known if that payment met assessable income criteria, or not; plus, this money would never be remitted, so, again, super not assessable. AND to say, this payback money of the loan is actually a marker for the loan remittance to Thailand -- is a bit too much. Nope. Credit card payments are nowhere in the first world considered taxable income. And logic dictates they wouldn't either be in Thailand.

 

But, hey, if you're really a super straight shooter -- declare your credit card payments on your Thai tax return (you'll need to invent a line item). But, to be pure, make sure you subtract from those credit card payments any payments to your credit card bank that were non assessable type income, either from pre 2024 accounts, or from govt pensions, etc. Thai RD will really be impressed. And you'll be ready for the funny farm.

 

Oh, yeah -- per the starting quote. Alan's remittance to Thailand is, first and foremost, not attached to its purpose to buy a condo, in RD's eyes. Thus, it's treated as assessable income, if it fits the DTA criteria, and is post Dec 2023 income. Purpose of remitted income is irrelevant.

Bill's loan, remitted to Thailand, is, by definition, a loan and not income. That it buys a condo is incidental. And that, in later years, it is paid back by assessable income, a gift from Granny, or never paid back due to bankruptcy -- is a bridge-too-far for Thai RD to possibly consider.

 

Anyway, logic would dictate that credit card charges will not be considered as assessable income. But, hey, if you're worried you'll be suspected of income tax evasion, by all means declare your credit card payments on your Thai tax return. NOT!

 

 

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