Payment QR Codes

[BritManToo]

  On 5/1/2024 at 12:04 PM, Yellowtail said:

So, they sneak in and swap the QR code while the shop owner is not paying attention? 

 

Does the shop owner's phone not beep when they receive the funds? 

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Not relevant!

As I pay when the goods are in my hand.

Same as a cash transaction.

The shop owner is responsible for the staff.

[itsari]

  On 5/1/2024 at 12:30 PM, Yellowtail said:

Or they just put up the correct QR code. 

 

And if they have the phony QR code, they know where the money is going, yes? 

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Traceable I am sure, but it will take time to recover your money or not at all.

Check the receiver and the amount and all should be ok.

 

[itsari]

  On 5/1/2024 at 12:58 PM, BritManToo said:

Not relevant!

As I pay when the goods are in my hand.

Same as a cash transaction.

The shop owner is responsible for the staff.

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You are responsible for who your giving money to.

Are you all there?

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 12:04 PM, Lorry said:

Not yet.

They are working hard on it.

Going cashless is the first necessary step. 

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Who is working on what exactly? Do you have any idea about the complexity of tracking all transactions across all payment rails?

 

Yes, governments would prefer us all to use digital payment systems, there are policy papers on this, highlighting all the advantages, and yes, cracking down on money laundering, tax evasion, and sending money to sanctioned groups, are among the many reasons, but this is not done by reporting all transactions to the government, instead each financial institution that accept money is tasked with doing the necessary KYC/AML procedures.

 

And as for the advantages, in EU a motivating factor has been to make payment easier and cheaper for both consumer and vendor, and thereby increase commercial activity (which leads to more jobs). They even publish the numbers for the studies they have performed.

 

But I guess for you, it’s all just one giant conspiracy…

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 12:00 PM, Lorry said:

If you hand over cash,  there is no man in the middle. 

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The staff is the “man in the middle” (between the customer and the shop owner).

 

We couldn’t even sell bottled water in my condo without this “man in the middle” (staff) pocketing some of the money.

 

That is why I introduced a cashless payment system in our building, and since then, we are no longer losing money selling bottled water.

 

Yes, in theory, someone can swap all the stores QR codes, but in practice, you are much more likely to have staff pocket money or just give back incorrect change.

 

Also, if you actually do manage to swap all the stores QR codes, how long until they find out, and police comes knocking at your door, as the new QR code will point to your bank account… you are just being silly here!

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:11 PM, lkn said:

Who is working on what exactly? Do you have any idea about the complexity of tracking all transactions across all payment rails?

 

Yes, governments would prefer us all to use digital payment systems, there are policy papers on this, highlighting all the advantages, and yes, cracking down on money laundering, tax evasion, and sending money to sanctioned groups, are among the many reasons, but this is not done by reporting all transactions to the government, instead each financial institution that accept money is tasked with doing the necessary KYC/AML procedures.

 

And as for the advantages, in EU a motivating factor has been to make payment easier and cheaper for both consumer and vendor, and thereby increase commercial activity (which leads to more jobs). They even publish the numbers for the studies they have performed.

 

But I guess for you, it’s all just one giant conspiracy…

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While there are a lot of great benefits, the understanding the potential for social engineering abuses does not make one a conspiracy theorist. 

 

If the public is paying for your healthcare, should the public not have the right to control your eating, smoking and drinking? 

 

[Lorry]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:11 PM, lkn said:

payment easier

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It's not easier at all to pay 10B parking fee with an app. Neither here nor in my home country. 

 

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:11 PM, lkn said:

one giant conspiracy

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Freedom and democracy don't work by giving the government complete knowledge over its citizens. 

That's basic, not a conspiracy theory.

[itsari]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:11 PM, lkn said:

Who is working on what exactly? Do you have any idea about the complexity of tracking all transactions across all payment rails?

 

Yes, governments would prefer us all to use digital payment systems, there are policy papers on this, highlighting all the advantages, and yes, cracking down on money laundering, tax evasion, and sending money to sanctioned groups, are among the many reasons, but this is not done by reporting all transactions to the government, instead each financial institution that accept money is tasked with doing the necessary KYC/AML procedures.

 

And as for the advantages, in EU a motivating factor has been to make payment easier and cheaper for both consumer and vendor, and thereby increase commercial activity (which leads to more jobs). They even publish the numbers for the studies they have performed.

 

But I guess for you, it’s all just one giant conspiracy…

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More profit is more in there activity than more jobs.

Many traders in Thailand are using QR codes without thinking of the consequences. Meaning that if the  trader is not supplying a tax return they are leaving them selves vulnerable to prosecution for tax avoidance .

It is estimated that 70 percent of traders in Thailand do not pay tax.

[Lorry]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:18 PM, Yellowtail said:

should the public not have the right to control your eating, smoking and drinking

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That's a really good idea. 

And the "public" aka the government should, of course,  control your sexlife (beware of STDs), your choice of partner (prevent genetic diseases), your movement (don't go to dangerous places), your sleeping habits (go to bed at 10pm to stay healthy), your living quarters (beware of unhealthy pests)...

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:22 PM, itsari said:

More profit is more in there activity than more jobs.

Many traders in Thailand are using QR codes without thinking of the consequences. Meaning that if the  trader is not supplying a tax return they are leaving them selves vulnerable to prosecution for tax avoidance .

It is estimated that 70 percent of traders in Thailand do not pay tax.

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You mean do not pay income taxes. 

 

I think it a good bet that the margins at 70% of venders are such that they are not required to pay income tax. You can bet the revenue department visits every 7/11 in the country a couple times a month. 

[Surasak]

  On 5/1/2024 at 3:34 AM, scubascuba3 said:

Old folk seem to be worried about anything and everything new, my parents never used an ATM, fearing them

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You are making a mistake by tarring 'OLD' people with the same brush. I happen to be 4 score years and counting, doesn't mean I am beyond learning. QR codes were a challenge, but I mastered it within a few goes, now its second nature. As to 'anything and everything new, I've seen many, many new things in my life time, and hope to see many more.

I doubt you remember this?

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:24 PM, Lorry said:

That's a really good idea. 

And the "public" aka the government should, of course,  control your sexlife (beware of STDs), your choice of partner (prevent genetic diseases), your movement (don't go to dangerous places), your sleeping habits (go to bed at 10pm to stay healthy), your living quarters (beware of unhealthy pests)...

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It was a rhetorical question, posed to show the possible dangers, not as something I would advocate. 

 

Or how about the USDOJ subpoenaing Amazon for the names of everyone that bought a MAGA hat? 

[Surasak]

  On 5/1/2024 at 10:34 AM, it is what it is said:

 

back on the uk for a visit, contactless payment is so quick and easy, don't understand why thailand has implemented the faffy QR system when a much more efficient and effective payment system is available.

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Some shops do have contact card payment in Thailand, I was quite surprised the first time I saw it available, although it was a UNICLO shop.

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:41 PM, Surasak said:

Some shops do have contact card payment in Thailand, I was quite surprised the first time I saw it available, although it was a UNICLO shop.

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Do not most bona-fide stores/shops have this here? 

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 11:57 AM, Yellowtail said:

I am not talking about transaction fees, I am talking about the capital investment for the equipment required to accept a no-contact payment, at say a Home Depot or Walmart or some-such in the west. 

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There are a zillion different solutions all with different cost structure, benefits, volume discounts, so no single answer.

 

The nice thing about the QR code is that even the grandmother selling bananas at the market can just get a QR code from their bank and start accepting digital payments free of charge and with no technology (on her part) involved. Only downside is that she doesn’t do proper verification of the payments, but who would cheat an old grandmother out of 20 baht by photoshopping fake confirmation screens?

 

And on that note, even a non-tech savvy grandmother may prefer accepting payments electronically, because leaving the market with a lot of cash does make a lot of people worry. In my own country, bus and taxi drivers were the first to get rid of cash, because they are easy victims.

 

  On 5/1/2024 at 11:57 AM, Yellowtail said:

Does the bank provide everything free of charge to the vendor? 

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In Thailand it used to be that the bank would provide a business with a terminal free of charge, and that terminal would accept the bank’s debit cards free of charge, but have a fee for cards from other banks. That is why you see some shops have a dozen terminals, because they want to avoid the fee.

 

But I don’t know what the situation is today. I would almost assume that the banks have stepped out of the business of providing their own terminals, because debit cards never caught on in Thailand, and small vendors will just use PromptPay.

 

Larger vendors will invest in a terminal that accept many different payment types, for this, they will of course pay something, but I am quite sure that it is still cheaper than the cost of dealing with cash. And the cost of a payment terminal is only getting lower, as today, all you really need is a phone with an NFC chip to accept payment cards.

 

Also, I worked in a grocery store myself when I was younger, I don’t think you are aware of just how much overhead there is in counting cash at closing time, and carrying cash not just to and from the bank, but also to and from the store’s safety box. Not to mention that it’s much easier to give incorrect change with cash, although I have seen some modern stores today has a cash dispenser, so the cashier only have to type in the amount received, though such machine can’t be cheap either!

[Surasak]

  On 5/1/2024 at 11:31 AM, Yellowtail said:

I meant what does it cost the vendor, not the customer. 😁😁😁

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Say what you mean, don't just think it. We are not all Mr Spock

[Surasak]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:47 PM, Yellowtail said:

Do not most bona-fide stores/shops have this here? 

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I wouldn't know, I don't go into 'most' shops.

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:51 PM, Surasak said:

I wouldn't know, I don't go into 'most' shops.

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No wonder you were surprised. 

[Surasak]

  On 5/1/2024 at 11:57 AM, Yellowtail said:

I am not talking about transaction fees, I am talking about the capital investment for the equipment required to accept a no-contact payment, at say a Home Depot or Walmart or some-such in the west. 

 

Does the bank provide everything free of charge to the vendor? 

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It would help if you were to THINK before typing, then perhaps people would understand what you are trying to convey.

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:19 PM, Lorry said:

It's not easier at all to pay 10B parking fee with an app. Neither here nor in my home country. 

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Then it is a bad implementation.

 

Have you tried to use a Rabbit Card with the BTS system in Bangkok? Japan has the same, but with the card on your phone, and it is just as fast, if not faster (because their doors are open by default, so you don’t have to wait for doors to open, only if your card is invalid, does the door close) — and you just put your phone above the sensor, no need to activate anything on your phone first.

 

Imagine you had to stop in order to put coins in the metro gates, it would be bonkers, so don’t claim digital payment is slower than cash, just because there are bad implementations of digital payments out there.

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:22 PM, itsari said:

It is estimated that 70 percent of traders in Thailand do not pay tax.

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You don’t pay tax on the first 150,000 baht, and only 5% on the next 150,000 baht, so probably most traders don’t need to pay tax, or need to pay so little, that it is not worth pursuing.

 

Furthermore, I have transferred > 150,000 baht/year to a handful of different people, so just because this amount has been received in a bank account, does not mean it is taxable. Most older people in Thailand receive regular payments from their children, grandchildren, or nieces/nephews, and that actually is often done as electronic payments, though sometimes through a third party.

 

I doubt Thailand has the expertise to make sense of the data, if they actually did get access to all bank transactions.

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:55 PM, Surasak said:

It would help if you were to THINK before typing, then perhaps people would understand what you are trying to convey.

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Get a grip old man, I'm doing the best I can here. 

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:18 PM, Yellowtail said:

While there are a lot of great benefits, the understanding the potential for social engineering abuses does not make one a conspiracy theorist. 

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You claimed that »They [“big brother”] are working hard on it [seeing all our transactions].«

 

Can you provide some sources for this? If not, it is conspiracy terretory.

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 2:24 PM, lkn said:

You claimed that »They [“big brother”] are working hard on it [seeing all our transactions].«

 

Can you provide some sources for this? If not, it is conspiracy terretory.

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No, I never made that claim, you are confused, now apologize. 

[itsari]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:18 PM, Yellowtail said:

While there are a lot of great benefits, the understanding the potential for social engineering abuses does not make one a conspiracy theorist. 

 

If the public is paying for your healthcare, should the public not have the right to control your eating, smoking and drinking? 

 

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No, they should look into what your writing on social media 

[itsari]

  On 5/1/2024 at 1:58 PM, lkn said:

You don’t pay tax on the first 150,000 baht, and only 5% on the next 150,000 baht, so probably most traders don’t need to pay tax, or need to pay so little, that it is not worth pursuing.

 

Furthermore, I have transferred > 150,000 baht/year to a handful of different people, so just because this amount has been received in a bank account, does not mean it is taxable. Most older people in Thailand receive regular payments from their children, grandchildren, or nieces/nephews, and that actually is often done as electronic payments, though sometimes through a third party.

 

I doubt Thailand has the expertise to make sense of the data, if they actually did get access to all bank transactions.

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I understand what you mean , to be honest I don't think any Thai government would see any advantage in chasing the people that do not file a tax return on fear of losing there vote.

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 2:37 PM, itsari said:

I understand what you mean , to be honest I don't think any Thai government would see any advantage in chasing the people that do not file a tax return on fear of losing there vote.

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You clearly have not had any dealings with the revenue department here, they are relentless.

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 2:27 PM, Yellowtail said:

No, I never made that claim, you are confused, now apologize. 

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Sorry, it was @Lorry that made that claim, where I asked for a source, and you replied, so I confused the two of you.

[Yellowtail]

  On 5/1/2024 at 2:41 PM, lkn said:

Sorry, it was @Lorry that made that claim, where I asked for a source, and you replied, so I confused the two of you.

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So it was my fault, got it. 

[lkn]

  On 5/1/2024 at 2:37 PM, itsari said:

I understand what you mean , to be honest I don't think any Thai government would see any advantage in chasing the people that do not file a tax return on fear of losing there vote.

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And most likely, many of these vendors “who do not pay tax” do pay all sorts of other “fees” to the local authorities, that would far exceed their actual tax burden.

 

Truly a messed up system.