Thailand Tax on Expat Pensions 2024

[Southsealad]

Has the tax implications of the 2024 change of policy been resolved whether foreigners such as myself are concerned.   I watched a You Tube presentation last night, in which the Tax Adviser stated that the DTA between Thailand and the UK (I'm UK citizen) will only be applied to pension income arising from Police, Military and Civil Service pensions.  Private pensions and State pension would be subject to Thai tax, if income threshold was met by the value of incoming funds from these pensions.   Elsewhere there is disagreement and say pensions  in general will not be taxed.   Meanwhile the Thai Tax Revenue Dept are not offering any indication of what the position of people is.

 

I would like some clarity if possible.

[CharlieH]

MOVED to finance forum, refer to the numerous tax topics already running there.

[Presnock]

20 minutes ago, Southsealad said:

Has the tax implications of the 2024 change of policy been resolved whether foreigners such as myself are concerned.   I watched a You Tube presentation last night, in which the Tax Adviser stated that the DTA between Thailand and the UK (I'm UK citizen) will only be applied to pension income arising from Police, Military and Civil Service pensions.  Private pensions and State pension would be subject to Thai tax, if income threshold was met by the value of incoming funds from these pensions.   Elsewhere there is disagreement and say pensions  in general will not be taxed.   Meanwhile the Thai Tax Revenue Dept are not offering any indication of what the position of people is.

 

I would like some clarity if possible.

This as well as anything else about the new interpretation is only guesswork until the final paper is put out on the subject.  Any comments by experts, even TRD folks is speculation based on the latest meeting of those folks making the decisions.  Good luck

[Raindancer]

37 minutes ago, Southsealad said:

Has the tax implications of the 2024 change of policy been resolved whether foreigners such as myself are concerned.   I watched a You Tube presentation last night, in which the Tax Adviser stated that the DTA between Thailand and the UK (I'm UK citizen) will only be applied to pension income arising from Police, Military and Civil Service pensions.  Private pensions and State pension would be subject to Thai tax, if income threshold was met by the value of incoming funds from these pensions.   Elsewhere there is disagreement and say pensions  in general will not be taxed.   Meanwhile the Thai Tax Revenue Dept are not offering any indication of what the position of people is.

 

I would like some clarity if possible.

I am not in a position to comment on whether or not those who claim uk pensions will be subject to Thai income-tax. 

 

But here's a scenario:

 

1.   According to what I read, military pensions are not subject to Thai income tax.

 

So leaving that aside, let's move on to UK state pensions.

 

If and it is only if, Thailand decides to impose an income tax on the UK state pension, two possible outcomes:

 

1.  Offset any UK income tax against any possible Thai income tax.  If indeed that pension exceeds your annual Thai income tax allowances.

 

These are my allowances:   yours may differ, depending on marital status etc:

 

a)Personal Allowance for self

(PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR

Total allowance 560000 baht.

 

My UK state pension does not exceed my total allowances.  

 

But, as there is no clarification from TRD, I will just wait out.  I am not duly worried whichever way it turns out.

 

I hope that helps in some way.
 

 

Edited May 21 by Raindancer
Spelling

[Southsealad]

Thank you Rain dancer, very helpful.  

[Raindancer]

2 minutes ago, Southsealad said:

Thank you Rain dancer, very helpful.  

You're very welcome.  All we can do is sit and wait.  But, I personally do not think we have much to be concerned about.    

 

 

[BritManToo]

I don't think they will ever tax foreigners foreign income, it's just scare stories to get more clicks.

 

Basically the Thai government are too stupid and lazy to bother, unless you're daft enough to complete forms and offer your money to them!

Edited May 21 by BritManToo

[Sheryl]

To say that they won't tax foreigner's income of any sort is crazy. They already tax the invome of foreigners working in Thailand and will surely tax foreigners bringing in income from work done rrmotely or  abroad or from investments abroad. And take action against tax evaders.

 

Now retirees are another matter, since many bring in money that is is not tax assessable in Thailand and the terms of tax treaties vary greatly by country.  Chasng down taxes owed by retirees will be a daunting task with low yields. Possible many RDs won't bother, but remains to be seen.

[connda]

27 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I don't think they will ever tax foreigners foreign income, it's just scare stories to get more clicks.

 

Basically the Thai government are too stupid and lazy to bother, unless you're daft enough to complete forms and offer your money to them!

Actually, the amount of time and man-hours needed to check all the foreign expats will end up costing them more then they will ever make in additional revenues.  Actually, if they attempt to enforce it on me, they'll lose money.  I don't attempt to go back and claim the tax they take out on the minimal interest I make on my Thai bank account.  But if forced to file?  I'll claw back every satang they withheld for as many years back as I can.

The Thai government should focus on their own citizens.  Going after expats is a dumb idea.  But?  This Is Thailand, 'eh? 

[Sheryl]

49 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

I am not in a position to comment on whether or not those who claim uk pensions will be subject to Thai income-tax. 

 

But here's a scenario:

 

1.   According to what I read, military pensions are not subject to Thai income tax.

 

So leaving that aside, let's move on to UK state pensions.

 

If and it is only if, Thailand decides to impose an income tax on the UK state pension, two possible outcomes:

 

1.  Offset any UK income tax against any possible Thai income tax.  If indeed that pension exceeds your annual Thai income tax allowances.

 

These are my allowances:   yours may differ, depending on marital status etc:

 

a)Personal Allowance for self

(PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR

Total allowance 560000 baht.

 

My UK state pension does not exceed my total allowances.  

 

But, as there is no clarification from TRD, I will just wait out.  I am not duly worried whichever way it turns out.

 

I hope that helps in some way.
 

 

Thailand has already decided to tax the UK State Pendion. Long ago in fact and clearly spelled out in its tax  treaty with the UK. In the past one could get around this by remitting pension in a differrnt year than initially received. No longer.

 

But your math is correct and most Brits remitting only the OAP will owe little or no tax.

 

People remitting private pensions or other income (rentsl  investment etc,,) have more cause for concern. 

[connda]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

Chasng down taxes owed by retirees will be a daunting task with low yields. Possible many RDs won't bother, but remains to be seen.

The bottom line, given the DTAs and the amounts of tax subject to exemptions - the man-power and government expense needed to chase down foreign retirees and guys like me who are married to a Thai citizens (and over 65) is an exercise in diminishing returns: they will spend more money then they bring in.

Like I've suggested before.  Fill out this form, understand your tax exemption threshold, and keep the amount of remitted funds under the threshold.  Bob's your uncle! 

Thai_Tax_Form.pdf

[Sheryl]

5 minutes ago, connda said:

Actually, the amount of time and man-hours needed to check all the foreign expats will end up costing them more then they will ever make in additional revenues.  

 

Probably true for retirees as a whole. 

 

But not so true for other groups. 

[KhunHeineken]

10 minutes ago, connda said:

The bottom line, given the DTAs and the amounts of tax subject to exemptions - the man-power and government expense needed to chase down foreign retirees and guys like me who are married to a Thai citizens (and over 65) is an exercise in diminishing returns: they will spend more money then they bring in.

Like I've suggested before.  Fill out this form, understand your tax exemption threshold, and keep the amount of remitted funds under the threshold.  Bob's your uncle! 

Thai_Tax_Form.pdf

As many suspect may be the case, it's possible that foreigners may have to produce a Tax Clearance Certificate at extension time.  No chasing at all.  It makes the foreigner contact the RD.  

 

I think it will all be a big mess, but the Thai government will make rules up on the fly to still turn a baht out of it. 

 

Money Number One in Thailand, and no free passes for farang, including retirees. 

[Raindancer]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As many suspect may be the case, it's possible that foreigners may have to produce a Tax Clearance Certificate at extension time.  No chasing at all.  It makes the foreigner contact the RD.  

 

I think it will all be a big mess, but the Thai government will make rules up on the fly to still turn a baht out of it. 

 

Money Number One in Thailand, and no free passes for farang, including retirees. 

Post deleted by user.

Edited May 21 by Raindancer

[Raindancer]

38 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

But your math is correct and most Brits remitting only the OAP will owe little or no tax.

 

People remitting private pensions or other income (rentsl  investment etc,,) have more cause for concern. 

Agreed.  And it is a simple enough task to produce your income and tax paid from the UK govt website.  Plus one could always provide the P60 annual report.

 

This of course assumes that those individuals with income outside of pensions etc, have declared this to HMRC, and will therefore show on their total income and tax document on UK govt website.

Edited May 21 by Raindancer

[BritManToo]

22 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As many suspect may be the case, it's possible that foreigners may have to produce a Tax Clearance Certificate at extension time.  No chasing at all.  It makes the foreigner contact the RD.  

So you just switch to multi entry non o, or lie on the forms they have no way of checking.

[Raindancer]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

So you just switch to multi entry non o, or lie on the forms they have no way of checking.

I think that this rumour/ gossip of immigration requiring documentary evidence of income/ tax paid, is just non substantiated and is scaremongering.

[QuantumQuandry]

15 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

So you just switch to multi entry non o, or lie on the forms they have no way of checking.

 

They could just force you to produce official documents that you are cleared, couldn't they? 

 

They already make you prove your income.  So not sure why they couldn't make you prove your tax clearance, as well.

[BritManToo]

8 minutes ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

They could just force you to produce official documents that you are cleared, couldn't they? 

 

They already make you prove your income.  So not sure why they couldn't make you prove your tax clearance, as well.

I keep 400k in a Thai bank, no other proof required. I may have zero income and live off my wife or Thai kids.

As for foreign money - WISE allow me to choose if deposits are marked 'foreign' or 'local' transfers by my Thai bank account.

Edited May 21 by BritManToo

[QuantumQuandry]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

I keep 400k in a Thai bank, no other proof required. I may have zero income and live off my wife or Thai kids.

As for foreign money - WISE allow me to choose if deposits are marked 'foreign' or 'local' transfers.

 

I am aware.  I must not have been clear in my post.  Let me phrase it differently.  With either method, the onus is on you to prove that you have what is needed.  For example, if you are using the income method, you have to go to the bank and get a letter from the bank.  You have to present it to immigration.

 

You said they have no way of knowing if you lie on the forms.  So I am asking why they couldn't just do the same thing with tax clearance.  Why couldn't they make you get a letter from the appropriate Thai tax agency...saying you have paid your taxes in Thailand?

[steve187]

35 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Agreed.  And it is a simple enough task to produce your income and tax paid from the UK govt website.  Plus one could always provide the P60 annual report.

 

This of course assumes that those individuals with income outside of pensions etc, have declared this to HMRC, and will therefore show on their total income and tax document on UK govt website.

the snag i see with that is UK tax year is April to April, with P60 being issued end of May, and do state pension issue a P60 for people only receiving state pension, as no tax is paid by the majority

[KhunLA]

OP ... you might want to actually read the DTA yourself, and not rely on YT for info.  Maybe there's a UK govt site you can register for any updates to the DTA if they come about.

[Raindancer]

16 minutes ago, QuantumQuandry said:

Why couldn't they make you get a letter from the appropriate Thai tax agency...saying you have paid your taxes in Thailand?

Why are you suggesting this.  There is only the rumour of this on this forum propagated by others.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that you will need to provide income/ tax paid etc for extension renewals.

[QuantumQuandry]

Just now, Raindancer said:

Why are you suggesting this.  There is only the rumour of this on this forum propagated by others.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that you will need to provide income/ tax paid etc for extension renewals.

 

I asked "Why couldn't they do that?".

 

Can you help me understand which part of that question indicates to you that I am saying there is evidence they will?

[Raindancer]

Just now, QuantumQuandry said:

 

I asked "Why couldn't they do that?".

 

Can you help me understand which part of that question indicates to you that I am saying there is evidence they will?

I fully understood your question.   And perhaps if you read my answer, I never suggested that you suggested that you personally,stated   "there is evidence they will.

 

I said that there is no current evidence etc etc.

 

 So let me be more succinct.   Instead of asking why couldn't they do that, ask the question "why would they do that".   

There is nothing currently to suggest they would.

[Sheryl]

55 minutes ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

They could just force you to produce official documents that you are cleared, couldn't they? 

 

They already make you prove your income.  So not sure why they couldn't make you prove your tax clearance, as well.

They could, but there is not the slightest indication that they will.

 

Why on earth would they?

 

Nothing in the immigration law or regs asks for this.  Tax revenue is not Immigration Dept's concern. And inter-departmental coordination is not a strong point in Thai government.

 

Also, pensioners are not the prime target of this from RD standpoint. As they have repeatedly explained, it is primarily aimed at wealthy persons investing abroad and previously using the loophole to avoid taxation. Hard to imagine they would have any reason to ask a different government dept to help them collect the piddling amounts that would be owed by pensioners.

[QuantumQuandry]

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

They could, but there is not the slightest indication that they will.

 

I am not saying there is but since this is new (a new interpretation and implementation, anyway), there wouldn't necessarily be an indication either way yet, would there?  Afaik, from trying to follow the other tax threads, there is no clarity from the Thai government on how things will be enforced or implemented yet.

 

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Why on earth would they?

 

Money, I would think.  I am sure some expats would end up having to pay taxes.  That said, with Thailand, maybe also a sheer love of bureaucracy lol (second part is half-joking).

 

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Also, pensioners are not the prime target of this from RD standpoint. As they have repeatedly explained, it is primarily aimed at wealthy persons investing abroad and previously using the loophole to avoid taxation.

 

I understand they have said that's the...primary aim.  We are not the prime target.  I am not sure that means we won't be affected, though.

 

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Hard to imagine they would have any reason to ask a different government dept to help them collect the piddling amounts that would be owed by pensioners.

 

It seems to me, at first glance, that Immigration puts all the effort on us, as foreigners, to prove that we comply with their rules.  So would it be difficult for them to just say "Hey, prove you paid your taxes if you want a visa renewal"?

 

I guess you could say that it would require inter-departmental cooperation...but...there may not need to be much cooperation.  To prove my income, I have to go to banks and get a letter issued by the bank.  So is it that big a stretch to think they might do the same with tax compliance?

 

To clarify for...other posters, I am not saying they will.  I am just not so sure they won't.

Edited May 21 by QuantumQuandry

[Moonlover]

Why are you all going over the same old stuff over and over again? Why can't you all just wait until some official announcement is made on this subject, if it ever comes that is?

 

All you are doing stressing yourselves up by speculating on this matter when none of you have any solid evidence as to what will, or will not happen in the future. 

 

And I'm going to repeat, yet again, the paragraph from the Thai Enquirer, dated Sept 18th 2023:

 

'The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

Now for heaven's sake give it a bloody rest!

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, QuantumQuandry said:

 

I am aware.  I must not have been clear in my post.  Let me phrase it differently.  With either method, the onus is on you to prove that you have what is needed.  For example, if you are using the income method, you have to go to the bank and get a letter from the bank.  You have to present it to immigration.

 

You said they have no way of knowing if you lie on the forms.  So I am asking why they couldn't just do the same thing with tax clearance.  Why couldn't they make you get a letter from the appropriate Thai tax agency...saying you have paid your taxes in Thailand?

The Thai government have no way of discovering my income outside of Thailand, unless I volunteer the information.

Just like the British government have no way of discovering where I live, unless I volunteer the information.

 

I understand some of you are frightened by everything, health insurance, climate change, sea level rise, COVID, pension increases, face masks, tax, etc.

But most of us aren't that bothered by the constant scare stories!

Edited May 21 by BritManToo

[Mike Lister]

The OP may wish to visit the following thread and read the tax guide linked in the OP: